'Bug' in quest order problem/Clan Fang test?

[ewan]

So: completed Clan Fang tests, then found the quest for the rogue Kherrr. Except - he wants to meet me in the test caverns, and when I return down there they're locked up. I can force the first testmaster to yield (again) with bowfire, but the portcullis remains down :-(.

 

Suggestions?

[macdude22]

I did the Kherrr quest after taking the test. After you talk to hem and he goes down, you can still climb down the ladder in the NW corner of the Fang Clan area. He'll be hanging out in the area above West of the exit (I think west, above anyway).

[ewan]

Never mind... I should know to be more *complete* before thinking there's a problem. Sorry! [And, thanks for the above reply, which I saw after figuring it out!]

[Randomizer]

The porticullis are supposed to remain down so you can't repeat the test.

[Khyryk Eye]

While we are on the topic, is it possible to take the ceremonial bow and the nephile warblade from out of the testing grounds? There are some runes just before the exit that takes away those items when you walk over them.

[Bryce]

Apparently not. It is quite possible to get them over the runes through creative use of combat mode and such, but there is a simpler "your pack feels lighter" thing that deletes them once you make it into the village. I think there should be a way to steal them (angering the village), but oh well. You can still put their village to the sword and take all their stuff, which is arguably justified since they are planning to destroy Avernum and the Empire.

[Men are from Slars]

They will only disappear from your pack in that zone, and you can get them over the runes as Bryce said; the real issue is the stairs going up, as you can't change levels in combat mode.

[Bryce]

Actually, through very careful manipulation of the algorithm that repositions you after ending combat, I was able to climb the stairs without losing them, but you still lose them no matter what (as far as I could see) the first turn you take in the village above.

(I don't think I tried dropping them, but also there probably wouldn't be time. Maybe if you irritated a villager above so that you would automatically go into combat mode when you got up again, but that would be tricky to pull off and uncertain of success)

 

Plus actually getting them out of the zone would be an impressive feat too, because there's no reason to suspect that the "take them away" thing stops working.

[Synergy]

Huh...how about using the return to start cheat code once you have the items but haven't left the lower level, or before you take that one step in the village? I hadn't thought about trying that.

-S-

[Californian]

I found out accidentally that you can get the ceremonial items out if they're on a character that dies during the test. So I went back to the test, put the good stuff on a character I intentionally sacrificed, got out of the village and regenerated at Shanker's pool, and there they were. After all, you only need to get one character alive out of the test. However, if you return to the village, even to the entrance, they disappear again. So if you want to go back, stash 'em somewhere. Now, it's possible that if you meet any more Fang Clan members they disappear again--don't know that yet.

[Men are from Slars]

The take them away thing does stop working because it's only in the script for that one zone. If that script isn't running, they don't get taken away.

 

The dead character thing is really smart, however. Now the question is whether that counts as cheating, since it obviously wasn't intended to be possible...

[Randomizer]

Jeff never wanted those items taken away. They are way more powerful than most of the items you can get later in the game. No other item has more than 30% fatigue removal, but the Nephil Warblade is 100% plus the strength bonus. Same with the ceremonial leggings that give strength and resistance bonuses.

 

Good trick on how to get them out.

[Men are from Slars]

Right, but there are unintended errors that give characters an advantage that it is widely considered not-cheating to capitalize on. A good example is in the original Final Fantasy game for the NES. The Silver Swords sold in ElfLand are drastically better than any other weapons you find until halfway through the game. They also make the Fighter and Red Mage classes fairly unbalanced in the first half of the game. And the rest of the Silver items aren't sold until Crescent Lake, while the Silver Sword is the last item sold in ElfLand. It is widely assumed that selling it there was some kind of data error and not intended. But it's also widely assumed that one should take advantage of that error.

 

There are other such 'features' in Spidweb games as well. In A5, the Flaming Sword increases the amount of armor a mage can wear. Intentional? Doubtful, since the sword's ability is a carry-over from Geneforge 3, which had no such armor limitation.

 

Perhaps the best example though would be the random item shops in E2 and E3, which allowed you to obtain infinite copies of (almost) any item in the game. Is it cheating to buy six Rings of Speed early in the game? That's a more drastic power increase than what the ceremonial gear supplies.

[Californian]

Just so ya know, you do indeed lose the ceremonial items if you enter the Fang Clan's territory again at all. I lost mine (I'd saved first, because I suspected this) when I visited that little outpost of Fang Clan members on the way to the rapids--not even the testing village. I restored my game and have been using them cheerfully ever since. I do save a lot, though, because I never know when I'm going to meet another clan member. However, I suspect it's just the territory, so I'm probably safe. If I go back I'll stash 'em somewhere. I don't consider this to be cheating. It was a happy accident, and I figured out the trick. One of my characters got killed in the test while wearing the vambraces and carrying the bow, and when I regenerated at the pool they were still on the guy, but the sword on a surviving character was missing. So I restored to an earlier game and made sure I got 'em all. Anyway, it works!

[Men are from Slars]

It has nothing to do with their territory. I believe A5 runs 9 zone scripts at a time, for the zone you are in and the 8 zones surrounding it; so if you come within 1 zone of the village zone, you'll lose the items. As it is the NW-most zone, that only quarantines you from 3 other zones, which are mostly empty anyway.

[Californian]

That's spiffy, Elasticon! I only got the game registered yesterday, so I'm still around Harkin's Landing. Anyway, I keep two general saves going all the time, along with some local saves, so I should be OK. I am determined to keep this stuff, whether Jeff wants me to or not (much as I love him).

 

I figured it out. I deserve it.

[Skippy the bush kangaroo]

Quote:

Originally written by Californian:
J...I don't consider this to be cheating....

Nor did Enron executives think what they were doing was cheating. They could get away with it and it wasn't technically illegal - it was just creative accounting; therefore it couldn't be wrong, could it?

Of course it is cheating. You want to cheat - I'm not going to stop you. Just don't try to claim that you aren't cheating.

[Alorael at Large]

There's a difference between creative rules evasion and outright cheating. For one thing, the former gives you bragging rights.

 

—Alorael, who was probably among the first testers to sneak the gear out over the runes back before there were other removal scripts. He suggested that the items should be left to the clever, although maybe with a reduction in power. Alas, no such luck. And now the cleverer are the ones who get them.

[Men are from Slars]

At least this time, the creative trick doesn't involve the end of combat placement bug.

[BrownieMix]

I don't believe this can be classified as "cheating", because it's entirely plausible that someone would take the ceremonial items to help with the test, then die due to unforseen monster ass-kicking. If a character dies in that test area, unless they have the raise dead scroll they can only be revived at a friendly town...which is far enough away from the clan's base.

 

In fact, that's what happened.

 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff "fixes" this in the next patch. Those items are pretty sweet - wish I had thought of this trick when I wiped out every last clan member...