GF2-I: Why I kill Barzhites as an Awakened [Spoilers]

[alhoon]

Sooo... I got to a bridge. This is what I was told by the Servile there: 

 

 

Add to that, the Servile does not know how to swim. The Barzhites told him to not worry about it. Clearly, the "plan" is for the Servile to either drown trying to cross or kill himself directly. 

And those are orders he plans to follow. 

 

I didn't find it in me to kill this poor, brainwashed creature. I will kill his masters though. I have already killed everyone in Ghent - except the Serviles that didn't attack me. 
I will self-servingly get what I can out of Rising, like talk to Barzhal and trade for what I can with whomever I can (if I can trade with anyone!) and then sabotage that control thing like in the Originals, and let the enslaved Creations take it out on their oppressors. 

 

The Shapers (no love there) are not as far gone as the Barzhites when it comes to Creations. They are not as callous. Usually. There are a few that are, but generally they are not. 

 

I realize I will lose some content and quests by killing every Barzhite I can get my hands on, but so be it. 

 

Speaking of Shapers, here's a bonus: 

 

 

Edited May 8 by alhoon

[alhoon]

More Shaper wisdom: The Loyalists think the most effective way to help the Shaper Cause is to NOT inform the Shaper council of what they are doing. "Keep the Shaper Leaders out of the Process". That's insubordination, at best. A different kind of rebellion, at worst. The Loyalists are less Loyal than they think. 

 

Trace the Barzhite when told that we have a tiiiny bit of responsibility towards our creations: "What's the point of being a Shaper if you don't have the Power? The control? The command over Life itself?" Hold your horses Trace. After I find what I need from around here, there's not going to be a trace of you left... 

Edited May 8 by alhoon

[earanhart]

That's an incredibly negative view of the Loyalists. Maybe not incorrect, but is unfairly ignores their actual conditions. 

They are 4 Shapers and a handful of warriors. That's it. And one of their number was captured. Also look at what happened to Shanti, a trained Agent presumably comparable to any of the Loyalists here. Two AGENTS captured. A Guardian and a Shaper have no hope of sneaking out unnoticed, which means they would need to fight their way out.

Considering the difficulty and risk of even leaving Drypeak, the time delay to get to the Council (even assuming an immediate response of record scale), and the rate at which threats are growing and advancing here, they aren't being insubordinate. They are doing what they determine to be the best course of action to support the Shapers while trapped behind enemy lines. And note that they aren't hiding, their camp has SIGNPOSTS outside it warning Barzhites away. They are doing everything they can to follow the teachings of the Shapers as long as they can. 

Without canister modifications, we don't see Shapers wandering around making armies. Shapers establish power bases and Shape from there. They could possibly hide for a month or two and make an army that could see one of them safely outside these mountains. If they are strong enough to control that many Creations. But how many potentially innocent Commons would die in that march? And in the time they are Shaping their army the Geneforge might be completed. Even without that, they know that both the Barzhites and the Takers are advancing their self-Shaping skills at exponential rates.

And while the Awakened might not be directly hostile to the Loyalists, they absolutely are not helpful. Want to bet that they wouldn't get in the way somehow if they knew one of the Loyalists were trying to escape Drypeak? If one of their humans walked into Drypeak Warrens, would anyone stop them? Zackary wants the mess cleaned up before the Council is alerted. He has a vested interest in keeping the Loyalists trapped. And what's "a few more Rogues" on their way out? 

No, the Loyalists options are really "stay and try to slow this down, hoping for rescue somehow," "betray everything we believe in" or "join the insane Barzhites." Even if they joined Zackary, he wouldn't let them leave until the situation is entirely under his control, so he can spin the story to try and save his own hide. 

The Loyalists are anything but insubordinate. They're doing everything in their power to follow the laws of the Shaper Order and the expectations placed onto them. Look at how the Council reacts to Shanti's fate at its various states in the ending slides. Every Shaper in the Loyalist Camp knows what is expected of them, and it ain't "run away and tell the Council."

[alhoon]

You answer your own points: They have agents that could try to sneak away (like Agent something outside of Ghent) and they have an army of Creations, they could cut their way out. They are not weak. They have an entire outpost and are able to hold it. 

 

Furthermore, they don't tell you "we wish we could leave, but alas, we can't." They tell you "We plan to pit the Barzhites and the Takers against each other more strongly! Then, we will leave after killing their bosses." That is a demented plan that even Agent Ki-something admits is not going to fly. 

The way they express the sentiment in the dialogues, the Shaper in that hall at least, is that they were there and sabotaging Barzhal for a few years - after ignoring what he did for some years. They just didn't feel like  leaving and informing the council. Thus, even if now they are trapped, it is their own fault for "cutting out the council" in the first place. 

1 hour ago, earanhart said:

They could possibly hide for a month or two and make an army that could see one of them safely outside these mountains.

They are there for years. They just recently decided to start building up a decent army to beat back both Barzhites and Takers in their arrogance. They do have what it takes to cut through and get away. Also, the unmodified Shapers of the Servants do bring up Creations. 

 

1 hour ago, earanhart said:

And in the time they are Shaping their army the Geneforge might be completed. Even without that, they know that both the Barzhites and the Takers are advancing their self-Shaping skills at exponential rates.

 

Them NOT informing the council won't stop that. They are trying to delay it, but most of them realize their enemies get stronger faster than they do and that they need to inform the council. 

Not that they will have the chance. Heh, heh, heh... 

1 hour ago, earanhart said:

They're doing everything in their power to follow the laws of the Shaper Order and the expectations placed onto them.

In a very foolish way, and openly claiming the Council is stupid and slow. 

[earanhart]

Oh really? Where are their agents? One managed to slip through contested and largely unwatched lands to spy on the other side of Taker lands. One was captured spying on Taker lands. One is BARELY outside Loyalist territory in an area where she could pass as a member to casual observation.

None are near Freegate. Bekka of Rising is probably a Taker, not a Barzhite, but either way she isn't an Awakened. How do you get through a tunnel watched by all four factions when everyone there knows you leaving means a new faction in the war comes, and one larger than anyone is yet ready to face? And clearly the Takers are able to pass through the secret tunnel, or there wouldn't be Spawners in the unimproved lands. I'll grant that it's possible one of these Agents, alone, could escape. But we've seen two Agents captured when on guard. And it would weaken the Loyalist Camp to send one away in the hope that they escape. If the Barzhites decided to attack in force, do you really think the Loyalists will survive? Right now their defensive positioning allows them to be too expensive to clear out, so long as they don't push too hard and become worth the attention. So long as they can keep Barzhite attention on the Takers. If one of their Agents leaves, they lose access to information and some ability to defend their base.

 

As for them "ignoring" the progress Barzahl was making, these are experienced Shapers. If they went back to the Council with "Hey, there's some illegal Shaping going on, maybe y'all want to take a look at that?" The Council would end their careers. What ending state do you get if you meet Zackary, Pinner, and Barzahl and know about the Takers? In the eyes of the Shaper Council, that's a failure for an APPRENTICE, what would they say to a full Shaper?  And remember, Barzahl and Zackary are in charge of this entire project. Not putting their skills at the service of those two withiut specific orders to do something else here is mutiny. They need evidence before they can go the Council and say "yeah, we disobeyed orders because those orders were illegal." By the time they knew things were bad enough that MAYBE they wouldn't be branded cowards or traitors themselves for leaving, it was too late. 

 

Again, look at Shanti. If simply evidence of illegal Shaping was sufficient to report to the Council, then as soon as you report the Spawner to her she would send you back to the Council and continue her investigation, so she could have more information to give to the force the Council sent. But it's not. Loyalty to the Shapers means more than simply being a whistle-blower. It means bringing back the entire investigation that the internal review following that whistle-blowing would cause.

Is that ideal? No, it's really not. At least not as American or European cultures understand it. But that's what the Loyalists are stuck working with. 

 

Remember, with the sabotage of the Loyalists and them pitting two factions against each other, the power balance here is so fragile that an apprentice is sufficiently powerful that EVERYONE knows the PC is the pawn that can win them the game. 

For the Loyalists, losing a single Shaper to go report is tantamount to forfeit.

Edited May 9 by earanhart

[alhoon]

Rising North Gate: If you randomly attack Barzhites in Rising itself (which I often do as it is good for the soul before I load back to my morally compromised save where I keep them alive for the trade and quests) Lem the Awakened turns against you. Even after he tells you he recognizes you as an awakened. 

However... Ornks turn against you. The Ornks. 

Keep in mind that if you kill guards in Rising North Gate, nobody minds. But if you attack Rising then the ornks raise to fight you. 😕

I haven't tried yet to walk out after I sabotage Rising to turn it hostile and Kill Barhal and all to see if "story-turning" of Rising against you has different effect on ornks. 

Keep in mind, this is the only zone where the ornks aren't neutral. 

[ultra112]

To be frank, I would have gut the Barzites whether I'm awakened, loyalist or unaligned, as these guys are a threat to everyone including themselves and the same goes for the takers.

[alhoon]

2 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

To be frank, I would have gut the Barzites whether I'm awakened, loyalist or unaligned, as these guys are a threat to everyone including themselves and the same goes for the takers.

Yes and no. The Takers have a much more admirable reason to seek power and to give Creations the power to Shape creation: Take their Free. 
They are ready to do crimes for it and they are ready to take great risks for it, but they are not seeking simple revenge; they also seek liberty. Thus, they have a much better excuse for going too far with their research. 

The Barzhites are pure powerlust. 

Edited May 10 by alhoon

[ultra112]

I mean sure you can say that, but sadly their madness and extremity causes them to loose sight of their goal. Like the Drakons are their first mistake and that eventually snowball to a genuine problem that would threaten everything; not just their lives but their very value of their rebellion; which is to be free. Which is ironic though as you know in the later games, the Drakons literally became the dominant force in the rebellion and the other creations are just second class compare to them and unlike the shapers, they have no sense of self-control or whatsoever which is bad especially when you are handling the power of shaping.

[alhoon]

19 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

I mean sure you can say that, but sadly their madness and extremity causes them to loose sight of their goal. Like the Drakons are their first mistake and that eventually snowball to a genuine problem that would threaten everything; not just their lives but their very value of their rebellion; which is to be free. Which is ironic though as you know in the later games, the Drakons literally became the dominant force in the rebellion and the other creations are just second class compare to them and unlike the shapers, they have no sense of self-control or whatsoever which is bad especially when you are handling the power of shaping.

True, quite true. 

 

I want to see the Shaper Empire fall for its crimes, arrogance and the way it treats Creations and does cultural genocide to Common. 

 

The Barzhites want to break away from the Shapers, perhaps cause the Shaper Empire to collapse ... to do the exact same thing as the Shapers do, but without restrictions. 

 

The Takers want to punish the Shapers. The GF2 Drayks and Drakons fight for the right to exist. And they turn to Self-Shaping for that. Eventually, they become quite like the Shapers as oppressors, but at least they start from a liberty/revenge standpoint. 

 

The Awakened want Justice in an unjust world. They want to fight fair in an asymmetrical warfare. That is bonkers. 

You kill a Shaper or tell them a Shaper died and half of them are sad. They do not want to use Shaping, let alone dangerous self-shaping, because they don't think they should be allowed to. Pinner, FIRST win the right to exist and breathe, and then you can disavow Shaping. 

Honestly, if I could kill Pinner (which I very much respect!) and remain an Awakened, I would do so. Pinner is too much an idealist. She needs to step down or she needs to die. Ellirah was not that much an idealist. She is following Ellirah's teaching more closely than he did. The GF1-M awakened were asking me to cripple the other factions. The GF2-I Awakened ask me to sabotage the main research facility of the worse abusers of Creations in the past 100+ years and will eventually request me to kill the unfortunately-mad, dangerous leadership of their opposing faction. For reasons unknown, they still consider the Barzhites as Shapers, despite their crimes against Creations and Shaper Law alike. Frankly, some of the Barzhite crimes in the eyes of Shapers have to do with how horribly they use Creations.  

 

 

And to return to me: 
I want to see the Shapers fall. I want to burn Shaper labs and kill Barzhites. I have killed Bazhal at least 10 times by now, and then load back (to keep trading with them... they are rich). I realize it is wrong, but I will Barzhite civilians that interfere. I mentioned I like Ajax, but I will hunt him down and kill him.  My character is an extremist too, and without the excuse of Take his Free or fighting for his right to exist; a bloody mass murderer, no way around it. 

I would be a Taker if Takers were not that much against me. If I was Geneforged and not "85% an enemy" in their eyes, tolerated but never trusted let alone valued, I would be a Taker and I would be hurting the poor, naive, idealistic Awakened along with the Shapers / Barzhites.  

 

Edited May 10 by alhoon

[ultra112]

Ok I will sympathize with the Drayk a bit, but the Drakons on the other hand; I don't sympathise one bit, cause these guys have proven themselves to be a danger to a lot of people.

[alhoon]

34 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

Ok I will sympathize with the Drayk a bit, but the Drakons on the other hand; I don't sympathise one bit, cause these guys have proven themselves to be a danger to a lot of people.

True, but they were born in fire. One of the reason they are a threat to a lot of people is that a lot of people are a threat to every last drakon in existence. 

[ultra112]

Sure, but the problem is that their very nature itself is a massive issue, these guys even before self-shaping treats those who are not the same species as them dirt, not to mention the greed, arrogance and aggressiveness, these aspects would have caused a lot of problems in the long run and the self-shaping made it worse. If they had personality traits similar to Dragonborns from DnD then I wouldn't have any issues about them, but no, they decided to act like Dragonspawns instead.

[alhoon]

  

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

He was probably hoping that she'd see the extent of the damage he unleashed and that way she'd help him before returning to the Shapers.

He probably hoped she would be killed by the Takers that guard the passage or the Barzhites past the passage. Which happened. If he hoped that she would see the extend of the damage, he would have warned her that things beyond the tunnel were hectic. Lying Zackary the Deceiver is not one of the fools that think Shapers are gods that can do anything, he knows that he and his team of Shapers have issues holding the Takers at bay. An unwarned Agent = someone that would be alone without creations was in serious trouble. The Loyalists which are more powerful than Shanti, are 4 (six if you count the two missing agents) bunkered down and fortified with a fort and a large line of defenses. 

1 hour ago, Genernumlover said:

Barzahl's idea is the democratization of power and eternal youth at the cost of sanity and morals. That's a nightmare scenario.

That is what he says but I wouldn't call it "Democratization". I would call it "enticement-based-meritocracy without sanity, morals or limits". I.e. he doesn't plan to simply remake every human to a god with a boot on the neck of creations. He plans to raise some people faster than others, creating a pyramid scheme where he sits at the top and an increasing number of powerful canister junkies lick his boots. 

It is a nightmare scenario of course, since those mad canister junkies are still extremely powerful and ... no sanity or morals. 

 

@Genernumlover I continue the discussion about Barzhites here. 

[alhoon]

 

Oh. Ohhhh... Well, Friz, you better decide what to do with your freedom because Dawn is not around anymore. 

I wish I could reassure the poor creation that Dawn died quickly, and probably not-very-painfully; she had like 40 hp and my Drakon did over 150 to her. 

Dawn is one of the few Barzhites that I didn't want to kill. Ajax the miner would be another that I will kill just because I have to. Well, "have to" = because he is a person I respect that works for the enemy. It's not personal. 

Edited May 19 by alhoon