Curious Artila Buzko Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Hi all, I've read through Randomizer's Queen's Wish: The Conqueror - Game Advice page, and while a lot of it is very helpful guidance, I'm a bit confused by the Combat section. Specifically, how +% Hit Chance and Evasion interact. Does stacking +% Hit Chance runes and rings counter an enemy's Evasion stat? I assumed that was the case, but the discussion in that thread makes it seem like they're separate things. Thanks! Buzko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 To hit and evasion are separate checks. To hit rarely fails so it helps for you to have decent evasion. To hit chance goes against a defense check based upon a monster's level. At least that's how it worked in other games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Quiconque Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Hit chance and evasion are almost certainly ONE CHECK. It has been one check in every other Spiderweb game ever released. Base hit chance + all hit bonuses - all evasion bonuses. Clearly, dodging happens more often in this game, and that has led some people to conclude that there are two different checks. But other changes could lead to the same behavior. And while Jeff hasn't addressed this directly, other things he's written strongly imply that it's just one check. On Steam he wrote, answering a player who wanted to "lower enemies evasion": "Most enemies should have a pretty low evasion, and there are a lot of items that increase hit chance." That's far more conclusive than anything anyone has said to support this "two checks" hypothesis. Please stop presenting it as fact. It's not. Jenekee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 In previous games it was that way, but the on screen and console texts are different in this game than previous ones. In Avernum and Avadon, in beta versions, the monster's to hit chance of hitting a player character clearly changed with adding or removing evasion items by the exact value. Jeff removed that number in the final released versions from the console text at the bottom. In past games evasion was added to defensive bonus for level and equipment, and dexterity or endurance against attack type. This game shows different messages where dodging happens inline with the monster's evasion rate chance and not a total to hit chance with all the above to hit and defensive penalties. You can see it best when a high level party goes back to clear a low level dungeon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Buzko Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) Thanks for the responses; didn't mean to restart an argument. That quote from the developer does indicate to me that stacking bonuses to Hit Chance counters Evasion. Edited November 9, 2019 by Buzko typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Quiconque Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 15 hours ago, Randomizer said: This game shows different messages where dodging happens inline with the monster's evasion rate chance and not a total to hit chance with all the above to hit and defensive penalties. You can see it best when a high level party goes back to clear a low level dungeon. This in no way requires there to be two different rolls. It could easily be set up so that a different message is displayed depending on what the roll result is. Say there's a base hit chance of 80%, a to-hit bonus of +10% and an evasion score of 20%. You might get: 1-70: hit 71-90: dodge 91-00: miss As I've said before, I'm happy to acknowledge that the issue is ambiguous. My problem is with stating that it is two rolls with the same definitiveness that we talk about other game mechanics that we do have a pretty conclusive understanding of. We've had issues with urban legends about game mechanics before: remember the "invisible -36% Torment armor penalty" that turns out to never have existed, but that we all thought was a thing for years, in part because it was presented so confidently? That led to a lot of counterproductive advice being given out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 My gripe is that Jeff hasn't in the past distinguished miss and evade as separate messages. This is a different enough game that he made changes to how combat is done from his previous games. While he might have intended what you say, we do know that in the past he doesn't always implement it (Blades with abilities) or forgets what he has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Simulated Knave Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 The game's not hard to mod. Has someone tried testing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Quiconque Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 7 hours ago, Randomizer said: My gripe is that Jeff hasn't in the past distinguished miss and evade as separate messages. This is a different enough game that he made changes to how combat is done from his previous games. While he might have intended what you say, we do know that in the past he doesn't always implement it (Blades with abilities) or forgets what he has done. Which is fine, but none of that in any way supports not only assuming one of multiple plausible theories is true, but presenting it as repeatable fact. 5 hours ago, Simulated Knave said: The game's not hard to mod. Has someone tried testing this? Many aspects of the game aren't hard to mod. Combat formulas are not one of those aspects. Testing could be done, but I'm not sure modding would make that any easier or harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Simulated Knave Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 You can't mod the formulae easily, but you can mod the variables IN the formula quite easily. Set evasion to 0 (or jack hit chance through the roof, or drop it precipitously, or whatever) and test, basically. Ess-Eschas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Quiconque Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Yeah, but it's not very hard to find different evasion and accuracy numbers on enemies, and it's even easier to create them on yourself (change equips/skills). I mean, go for it, just seems like a lot of trouble. Setting one to zero won't reduce anything to you-only-need-one-test status, since there are very possibly default hit numbers -- not listed in the defs files -- that start out in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt mikeprichard Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 I know Jeff sometimes doesn't emphasize revealing the mechanics behind his games, but I'd be surprised if he didn't respond if someone sent him a polite email asking him for details on this, which would resolve the issue once and for all. I don't feel strongly about it myself, but it's probably the only reliable way to get answers. Simulated Knave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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