Avadon storyline

[cremornagainagain]

Hi.

I'm on my second time through. I'm playing to make sure and have all companions available to me for the Redbeard fight.

 

First time through, when I found it too hard to defeat Redbeard without Shima, I reloaded and ended the game as a loyal hand.

 

I'm not happy about ending the game as a loyal hand. I guess I can see that Avadon's antics mean there's no wars in the region. I guess it means that travellers and industries are (mostly) safe. I guess it means that non-human migratory beings are smeared into the ground.

 

But I don't like the corruption, the colluding, the inefficiency, and the inevitability of destruction for all concerned when lands threaten the peace.

 

I'm on my way to bring in the Lord of Cast'A arl now. And again I am really unhappy that the Dhorl Stead Runners will die to protect him and their pride (I know you can sneak past them , but you get my point)

 

So I am feeling really disloyal. And I wish I had some way to express that within the game, besides waiting until the endgame, and beating on Redbeard. When it seems a bit futile anyway. I mean, what? Like I'm gonna do any better as a replacement Redbeard? And to get to him with enough stats to beat on him, you have to do all the corrupt stuff Avadon wants you to.

 

I wish I could think of another way the game could go. If the hands revolt, there's a war, and that's bad. If the hands are loyal, there's a bad peace.

 

Is Avadon saying that striving to do good in life is just an exercise in futility?

Isn't there some other way the game could go?

Is Geneforge really over?

[Randomizer]

You should be able to get the main Dhorl Stead Runners to not fight you if you pick the right dialog option. The group at the gate is different.

 

Jeff in Geneforge and Avadon has the view that there is no perfect choice. Everything is a bit corrupt so you have to decide what you will tolerate to achieve the end. For better endings you have to play Avernum or Nethergate where there is a clear good side and only a few moral dilemmas.

[Catoblepas]

The Redbeard fight is a ridiculously tiresome battle of attrition. I anded up lowering the level of the soul jars, which made it significantly more entertaining. I was also a bit suprised by how the folks at Dhorl Stead defended their lord with such dedication, considering that they all despised him. I would have appreciated the opportunity to point out some of the heinous crimes that he was involved with that they didn't already know about. At any rate, I didn't think it was that big a problem considering I had opportunities to persuade everyone who wasn't one of the lord's thugs to run away instead.

 

I agree with you that there aren't enough opportunities to work agaisnt Redbeard. The conspiracy against Redbeard is a pretty strong theme of the game, and the player is given the opportunity to speak out againstthe corruption and tyranny of Avadon on many occasions, but the next logical step- the ability to act on those opinions-is never really presented to the player until the very end of the game. The player never really gets to act in a rebellious manner, except to accept bribes in exchancge for various assassinations etc and the Wayfarer quests-which while certainly harmful to Avadon, are presented strictly as mercenary buisness (even if it is painfully obvious to the player that he is working for the enemy) An 'in' to the rebel conspiricy is never presented in the game until the very last minute, which makes rebel playthroughs rather underwhelming, IMO. Doubly so considering how little the ending changes if you manage to beat Redbeard as a rebel with the explicit stated goal of destroying Avadon from within.

 

There is definately room for improvement to the formula for Avadon II, but I'd still say it's a good game, and I have confidence that the sequel will be better.

 

As for Geneforge? I wish it wasn't, and I would absolutely love to see the series continued. Unfortunately, everything I have heard so far seems to point to Geneforge 5 being the last entry in the series.

[Earth]

Casta'ari gave protection to them so even they disliked him he had meaning in their lives.

[cremornagainagain]

Originally Posted By: Earth Empires

Casta'ari gave protection to them so even they disliked him he had meaning in their lives.

You are right, in that the game often states things to us in those terms. However, your use of the word "protection" is here relevant in the sense of The Godfather: abuse, bullying, extortion, oppression. These are the terms used to describe Casta'Arl's thugs in the early game. I don't expect Dhorl Stead to kiss my @ss. I just thought they wouldn't be so raring keen to die for an idea. A *bad* idea. I guess there are a lot of story lines in Avadon, and too many for EVERYTHING to be settled to my casual satisfaction =)

Now I have to decide whether or not to kill Gryfyn. I am going to kill Redbeard, so to taunt optimally I will withhold the info. I suppose I will kill Gryfyn because it is a hard fight. But I wish it had some sort of impact on the game.
RIchard

[Lilith]

If you choose to side with Redbeard, killing Duke Gryfyn does improve your ending slightly. Otherwise I don't think it really matters.

[cremornagainagain]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

If you choose to side with Redbeard, killing Duke Gryfyn does improve your ending slightly. Otherwise I don't think it really matters.

Oh! The Wanderer wants you to spare him. I must think this over.

[Dear Potato]

Maybe the Dhorl Stead case is the worst example; it was the only moment in the game that I had the impression that the events were forced. But the rest of the game I felt that I was doing something coherent.

 

In my case, at least, I felt that all the supposed corruption of Avadon was nothing more than the hidden interests of Avadon enemies (and well, at the end...).

[Catoblepas]

Perhaps the Rebel storyline would feel more rewarding, except for a number of small things, such as the way the player character is kept in the dark about the conspiracy well after the player themselves has figured it out, yet is not actually invited to do anything of real consequence for the conspiracy until the very tail end of the game, with what little the character is capable of doing for the conspiracy via the wayfarer being little more than mercenary makework rather than anything of importance, much less anything that changes the plot, or even the epilogue in any way.

 

The Dhoral Stead is another instance where things could have been handled differently. Despite being the last quest in the region, the character is given the opportunity to do nothing to characterize define their stance on the issue of Avadon and Redbeard, and almost nothing to minimize the damage in anything close to a logical fashion. Events in Dhorl Stead feel a bit railroady, to be honest.

 

Lastly, the endgame itself-when the player returns to Avadon, changes in no real meaningful way if you are a rebel or not. The player can go after Miranda, or not. But the structure of the last mission remains the same regardless of their choices up to that point. Tawron assassins attack you no matter who you work for. The wayfarer meets the same fate no matter what you do. And perhaps most irritating of all, even if the palyer manages to slay Redbeard, the ending changes suprisingly little!

 

The Rebel path seems half-written at times, esp near the end of the game. I suspect that in my next playthrough I will be palying as a complete Avadon Loyalist, because the rebel route is rather underwhelming, at least in this first game of the series.

[The Reverend]

Some of the actions you take do affect the ending slightly.

 

If you choose the right dialogue option with the main Dhorl Stead Runners and get them to not fight you, I believe it does change the ending a bit and give Dhorl Stead a better fate.

 

Also, I think your choice of what to do with the Titan Papers and whether or not you kill Zepheryne affects the ending a bit in terms of what happens in the Kva.

 

All in all, I came into this game expecting that I would be drawn to the rebel/conspiracy cause, but by the end I was convinced that the folks behind the conspiracy were no better, and probably worse, than Redbeard. There were a couple times I disagreed with him, but it felt like he was at least trying to do what was best for the Pact. You can argue about the morality of the Pact, but I doubt a

Click to reveal..

Tawon Empire

led alliance would be any better.

 

My decision was confirmed when Miranda admitted that she was essentially grooming us to rebel by sending us on missions that made Avadon look bad, and pairing us up with the most potentially-rebellious other hands. I got the impression that the whole mess in Khemeria was essentially set up by her, the Wayfarer, and

Click to reveal..

Dheless

to make me angry at Avadon.

[Dear Potato]

Originally Posted By: The Rev

...

That's exactly what I think. I couldn't have said it better.

At the end, when you discover the motivations and true meanings of your missions, I find difficult to stay as a rebel Hand.

Whether is true or not that Avadon is corrupt to its core, you have been thoroughly manipulated and framed. The scope of the decpetion is such, that seems clear that all the trouble and corruption has its roots on those interested to make you believe so.

Anyway... Avadon was my first Spiderweb game and I enjoyed the story immensely

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Catoblepas

The Rebel path seems half-written at times, esp near the end of the game. I suspect that in my next playthrough I will be palying as a complete Avadon Loyalist, because the rebel route is rather underwhelming, at least in this first game of the series.

According to some comments Jeff Vogel made during the game's development, the option of killing Redbeard was meant to be almost an Easter egg, not something that most players would consider. That's probably why it wasn't fleshed out very much. I think the number of people who actually chose to go down that path might have blindsided him a bit.

[cremornagainagain]

Catoblepas: in my next playthrough I will be palying as a complete Avadon Loyalist

Dear Potato: I find difficult to stay as a rebel Hand

The Rev: by the end I was convinced that the folks behind the conspiracy were no better, and probably worse, than Redbeard

 

I liked hearing you all say this, because I agree completely, 'swhy I was playing this time through as a confirmed loyalist who helped in positive ways when I could.

 

So this time through my character did everything possible for Dhorl Stead as enthusiastically as possible. And it was a pain to then be sent to Dhorl Stead as a destroyer, and not be able to avert that. It turns me rebel, as Miranda intended.

 

Odd to hear that Jeff is surprised by this.

 

I killed Gryfyn (cool fight!) then I reloaded and let him go, and thus I was able, after all, to express my character's rebellious feeling, and honour is satisfied.

[Catoblepas]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Originally Posted By: Catoblepas

The Rebel path seems half-written at times, esp near the end of the game. I suspect that in my next playthrough I will be palying as a complete Avadon Loyalist, because the rebel route is rather underwhelming, at least in this first game of the series.

According to some comments Jeff Vogel made during the game's development, the option of killing Redbeard was meant to be almost an Easter egg, not something that most players would consider. That's probably why it wasn't fleshed out very much. I think the number of people who actually chose to go down that path might have blindsided him a bit.

That is rather suprising, considering how many people in the game will tell you how much trouble Avadon brings where ever it goes, the number of opportunities the player character is given to voice a negative opinion on Avadon/Redbeard, and the party member quests which seem to have had a deal of thought in them and which serve to make party members loyal enough to you to consider betraying Redbeard. Of course, a huge part of the plot is the buildup and reveal of Miranda's betrayal, and the fact that she has been trying to recruit you to their cause by sending you on missions that show off Avadon's bad side and teaming you up with hands with suspect loyalties.

The problem is that while you are given ample reason to betray Avadon (while Miranda's missions may show only the bad side of Avadon, I would like to point out that this is the only side the player sees in the game, which makes it a bit hard to judge Avadon on anything else) you are never really allowed to participate in the conspiricy until the very last minute. There are no meaningful ways to act against Avadon before this with the exception of the party member quests. The Wayfarer's quests are obviously harmful to Avadon, and it's fairly easy to guess his identity, but the work he gives you is clearly presented from the perspective of someone giving you a bribe to do dirty work under the table, not as an opportunity to strike out against Avadon. In other words, by doing the Wayfarer's quests, you are essentially making yourself representative the problem with Avadon by being a corrupt hand who will screw over people for wealth or power. The player ends up getting essentially three ways of acting agaisnt Avadon: Complaining about how things are run, Party member quests, and essentially being a corrupt cop. because of these limitations, the player never really gets to explore the conspiricy and decide for themselves who is right, as they are consistantly allowed to only follow the path of the loyal Avadon agent no matter how much they complain right up until the endgame. (after slaughtering hundreds of folk with whom you might otherwise be inclined to aid or assist, but are never given the opportunity to)

I had a lot of anticipation and curiosity towards the conspiricy and was eagerly waiting for the opportunity to join them in earnest, or at least to see what they were about before making my decision. Unfortunately, neither goal was fulfilled within the structure of the first game, I feel. The conclusion to the rebel storyline feels almost tacked on, with little deviation from the loyalist endgame, despite being the only real section of the game where rebel players get to act on their defiance. (heck, even the assassins in Avadon attacked me despite us both supposedly being on the same side!) I do think that the storyline at least *feels* half-written, as if there is a sizable part of the game missing. Hopefully we will be able to make that choice in a more satisfying manner in the sequel.