Dual wield vs. sword and quicksilver bulwark

[Brocktree]

A quick little experiment I performed -

 

PC wielding blessed broadsword and frozen blade, equipped with mercuric chain. Hasted and blessed. Used adrenaline rush whenever possible.

 

Attached elite warrior for 20 rounds

Avg damage = 137

 

Same PC wielding blessed broadsword and quicksilver bulwark, equipped with mercuric chain. Hasted and blessed. Used adrenaline rush whenever possible.

 

Attached elite warrior for 20 rounds

Avg damage = 182

 

The dual wielder's damage output was approximately 75% of the sword and shield combo.

 

This is far from conclusive. But perhaps dual wielding isn't as overwhelmingly good as first though.

[Lilith]

The thing about the quicksilver bulwark, though, is that you can just put it on a spellcaster instead and still get its benefit without the drawback. Plus, there are other ways to get two actions per round.

[Brocktree]

Some calculations:

 

Hasted dual wielder with 10 in Quick strike. Assume haste provides a 33% chance to allow one to attack for 5 points instead of 9. Base AP = 8.

 

0.25 probability (Pr) to gain 0 AP from QS * 0.33 Pr for haste = 0.0825 Pr of gaining two attacks

 

0.5 Pr to gain 1 AP * 0.33 P for haste = 0.165 Pr of gaining two attacks

 

0.25 Pr to gain 2 AP = 0.25 Pr of gaining two attacks

 

Overall Pr of getting to attack twice per round:

0.0825 + 0.165 + 0.25 = 0.4975

 

 

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vs. Hasted single broadsword wielder with quicksilver bulwark + 10 in Quick strike. Assume haste provides a 33% chance to allow one to attack for 5 points instead of 9. Base AP = 9

 

0.25 probability (Pr) to gain 0 AP from QS * 0.33 Pr for haste = 0.0825 Pr of gaining two attacks

 

0.5 Pr to gain 1 AP = 0.5 Pr of gaining two attacks

 

0.25 Pr to gain 2 AP = 0.25 Pr

Pr of obtaining two hasted attacks = 0.33*0.33 = 0.1089

Pr of not obtaining two hasted attacks = 1 - 0.0625 = 0.8911

 

Therefore

 

Pr of three attacks in a round = 0.1089 * 0.25 = 0.027225

Pr of two attacks in a round = 0.8911 * 0.25 = 0.222775

 

Overall Pr of two attacks per round = 0.0825 + 0.5 + 0.222775 = 0.805275

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Application:

 

Dual wielder wielding two Broadswords, each giving an average damage of 50. Assume 30% damage reduction due to DW penalty

 

50 * 0.7 * 2 = 70 damage per attack

 

Damage per round = 70 + (0.4975 * 70) = 105 damage

 

 

vs.

 

 

Hasted single broadsword wielder with quicksilver bulwark. Assume broadsword gives 50 damage per strike

 

Damage per round = 50 + (50*0.805275) + (50*0.027225)

 

= 92 damage per round

 

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OK, the maths clearly demonstrates that DW is superior to even the awesome quicksilver bulwark.

 

Edit: As a side note, 10 QS will provide you with a 13% damage increase, assuming you have a base AP of 8.

 

And increasing your base AP from 8 to 9 (with base 10 QS) provides a 23% damage increase. Is a reduction in armour rating from the mercuric chain/leather worth it? Tough call.

 

Another edit: Increasing base AP from 9 to 10 provides a 9% damage increase.

 

[Aoslare]

I believe Haste gives you a 1 in 3 chance of getting the reduced AP use, unless my memory is really off.

 

Also, I think you mean QS at the bottom.

 

Also, the DW damage penalty is really easily minimized and I believe (look at the topics where I detailed this) it is never greater than 20%. Yes, you have to spend points on DW to negate this but this is more efficient pumping than high cost offensive skills provide anyway, so the lost skill points are not as significant as they could be.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

I believe Haste gives you a 1 in 3 chance of getting the reduced AP use, unless my memory is really off.

DOH! I'll fix that.

[Brocktree]

The results of my further calculations are pretty interesting. It seems that the effect of having a second AP boosting item is quick minimal, amounting to a +9% average damage increase (assuming 10 QS). The big damage increase occurs when your base AP shifts from 8 to 9.

 

Given how cheap quick strike is, it's probably not worth having two AP items on a character. Even casters would be better off just having a single mercuric item, and 10 in QS.

 

 

[Aoslare]

This ignores the fact that consistency in battle is incredibly useful. If you know how many strikes you'll get, you are more likely to be able to plan to use all of them. Wasted strikes definitely detract from average damage.

[Randomizer]

That's the reason that Jeff weaken haste from an automatic increase in AP so you could get a guaranteed second action. Knowing what you could do each round made it easier to determine who would attack and who would heal.

 

For a singleton it makes the decision to go with extra AP items much easier.

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

This ignores the fact that consistency in battle is incredibly useful. If you know how many strikes you'll get, you are more likely to be able to plan to use all of them. Wasted strikes definitely detract from average damage.

With a base AP of 9, and 10 quick strike, you'll be hitting twice a round 83% of the time. That's consistent enough, IMHO. Remember that each mercuric item deprives you of what could have been equipped in its place.

[Aoslare]

Which is what, exactly? And don't tell me about the Bulwark, because we're obviously caring about the armor and shoes here.

 

Going from 83% of the time to 100% of the time is a damage increase of about 9% overall, plus you recoup the skill points you invested in 10 Quick Strike -- that's 50 skill points. And of course, the invisible (but very tangible!) benefit of more consistent turns.

 

On the OTHER side of the balance, you get the greater of the loss you get from equipping either the armor, or the shoes for +1 AP (since you the 83% version has one AP item equipped already).

[Brocktree]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Which is what, exactly? And don't tell me about the Bulwark, because we're obviously caring about the armor and shoes here.

You'll be missing out on the protective bonuses of the emerald chestguard/crystalline plate/runed plate/radiant plate.

The shoes aren't that big of a deal. However, there is only one set of quicksilver sandals.

[Aoslare]

Good point on the one set of sandals: I think it has been standard practice in a 4-player party with 2 fighters to have one or both invest in Quick Strike rather than going for quicksilver items.

 

Quicksilver Plate has only 8% less armor than the Emerald Chestguard. It does lack its other bonuses. However,

 

- for a singleton, I think the advantages of a consistent two moves per round are obvious

 

- for a party, we're comparing 8% less armor for 1 of 4 targets, with an extra 9% damage for presumably one of the main damage-dealers

[Brocktree]

After working my way through to Melanchion's lands, I can't help but make a few observations:

 

- A couple of my PCs have two AP increasing items. However, they often do not receive 10 APs due to being stunned.

 

- My mage (with no quick strike) has very poor initiative.

 

- You can't create quicksilver bulwarks until near the very end of the game.

 

All three observations suggest that quick strike is worth investing in, even if 2 AP increasing items are available.

[Aoslare]

Hmm. Maybe. Still, 50 skill points is a lot (and the cost is much higher than that for non-warriors who won't have trained in melee or pole normally).

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Brocktree

After working my way through to Melanchion's lands, I can't help but make a few observations:

- A couple of my PCs have two AP increasing items. However, they often do not receive 10 APs due to being stunned.

When you're stunned you'll normally lose more than just 1 or 2 AP, so this isn't a very strong argument: even with Quick Strike you wouldn't get 10 AP most of the time.

Quote:

- My mage (with no quick strike) has very poor initiative.

Between starting as a Nephil and buying Gymnastics training, I find it's possible to get acceptable initiative without needing Quick Strike. Luck also improves initiative order, oddly enough.

Quote:

- You can't create quicksilver bulwarks until near the very end of the game.

This is true, but on the other hand how soon can you realistically have large amounts of Quick Strike on a mage, and what's the opportunity cost for doing so?

[Harehunter]

I'm not sure that a high investment is necessary to gain enough benefit to suffice. The cost/benefit ratio is not linear, but is more logarithmic. As you gain more of the skill, each level begins to cost more, but the ratio of skill-level/effectiveness seems to be more linear. I think the sweet spot for any of these special skills is 5-6 points, although you can gain a good level of benefit at 3-4 points. That is the point at which the curve gets more severe. I may be completely mis-guided about this. Slarty, correct me if I am wrong.

 

Obviously skills such a Blademaster and Magery, among others, need to be invested into more heavily according to the primary role of your PC's; 5 to 10 points is your goal. After that the cost/benefit curve begins to flatten.

 

However, I find that skills such as Quick Action, Quick Strike, Hardiness, Defense, Gymnastics, Resistance, are beneficial to all PC's, even at moderately low levels. Yes, Defense is good to have on your spell casters, because as much as you may try to keep them from the fray of battle, they will be attacked physically from time to time; 2-3 points helps.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

I'm not sure that a high investment is necessary to gain enough benefit to suffice. The cost/benefit ratio is not linear, but is more logarithmic. As you gain more of the skill, each level begins to cost more, but the ratio of skill-level/effectiveness seems to be more linear. I think the sweet spot for any of these special skills is 5-6 points, although you can gain a good level of benefit at 3-4 points. That is the point at which the curve gets more severe. I may be completely mis-guided about this. Slarty, correct me if I am wrong.

How about I correct you instead? I've done the calculations, and the first few points of Quick Strike are nearly useless unless you also have an AP-boosting item equipped.

Quick Strike's cost-benefit ratio works differently from every other skill, because its benefit increases in a quadratic instead of linear fashion with respect to skill level. This is because Quick Strike works by giving a character two independent chances to gain one bonus AP, so the chance of getting two bonus AP and an extra attack is proportional to the square of the Quick Strike skill.

Quote:

However, I find that skills such as Quick Action, Quick Strike, Hardiness, Defense, Gymnastics, Resistance, are beneficial to all PC's, even at moderately low levels. Yes, Defense is good to have on your spell casters, because as much as you may try to keep them from the fray of battle, they will be attacked physically from time to time; 2-3 points helps.

Defense is basically useless on Torment difficulty except as a prerequisite to Parry, because beyond a certain point in the game monsters will never miss no matter how high your dodge rate is. Character optimisation analyses are mostly carried out on Torment difficulty because that's the difficulty where optimisation is most needed.

[Aoslare]

Harehunter, this "5-10 point sweet spot" is totally fabricated. That is particularly true for skills like Magery and Blademaster. Their offensive bonuses stack additively with numerous other numbers (i.e., Strength, Melee Weapons, Blademaster, weapon bonus level, blessing bonus level, etc.) so the difference they make is smaller, and the sweet spot is likely lower when you have other good options to boost offensive output. And sometimes there are other bonuses (fatigue reduction) that outshine the usual cost/benefit analysis.

 

Quote:

However, I find that skills such as Quick Action, Quick Strike, Hardiness, Defense, Gymnastics, Resistance, are beneficial to all PC's, even at moderately low levels.

Yes, because you think all PC's should have mixed skill sets, and everyone else who plays on Torment thinks that idea is crazy. Let's not have that debate again.

[Harehunter]

I think that I may have misunderstood me.

 

I thought that I had indicated that Primary skills need to be invested in to a high degree. I thought I had indicated that skills such as Blademaster and Magery are to be included as Primary skills. I did not clarify that 'to a high degree' means that they should be taken to 10, 15, or even all the way to maximum if possible. I hang my head in shame.

 

Thank you Lilith. I was not aware of the quadratic nature of Quick Strike; that is highly interesting. As to your point that the first few points are pretty much ineffective, I have to totally agree. It seems that that is the case with many of the skills; you don't start to see the benefit until 3-5 points. And at the other end of the scale, you do run into situations where no matter how high your skill in defensive tactics is, they are of little to no use. That is why I don't recommend more than 5-6 points in those secondary, and even tertiary skills.

 

Basically it boils down to this; less than three in any skill is ineffective. Between 3-6 you get enough benefit to survive the encounters with your early threats. And don't bother investing into defensive skills at 10 and higher; you'll find that your skill points are put to better use on offensive skills. Not only does the cost of successive levels increase rapidly, by that point of the game you will always find yourself running into those characters that will hit and hit hard no matter how much defense you have. In those cases your only good defense is to have a strong offense, and in that regard, you can always use that to greater effect regardless.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

It seems that that is the case with many of the skills; you don't start to see the benefit until 3-5 points... less than three in any skill is ineffective.

No, no, no. Facepalm.

Quote:

And at the other end of the scale, you do run into situations where no matter how high your skill in defensive tactics is, they are of little to no use. That is why I don't recommend more than 5-6 points in those secondary, and even tertiary skills

Evasion: sure, that's why everybody says don't invest in evasion.
Damage reduction: you're way off base.
Parry: this is why the standard strategy is the have one tank with crazy parry, so you maximize the impact of the skill when it's useful and minimize the cost for when it's not