A6 - The Lich, The Drake, and Control Foe

[BrownieMix]

These are three separate complaints that came out of two separate encounters.

 

First, the lich in the Eastern Galley. Frankly, without the use of invulnerability potions, this quest seems impossible. I understand the supposed "trick" - you have to run to the other side of the platform when a pillar is about to explode. However, I feel this encounter is "cheap" because the lich has unlimited summoning abilities. Since he always stays there, he and his summons slow my party down to the point that when he has three summons all in the center area, my party cannot actually get to the other side, which causes them to all die. I tried this encounter a dozen times, and they all ended the same way - death, because there was just no real way to get to the necessary side. I finally said screw it and used 8 invulnerability potions (2 for each party member), ignored the pillars, and won in about 10 rounds. I feel that is NOT the way that encounter is supposed to happen, and would love to know how anyone else got past this.

 

Second, the drake in the Eastern Galley. I killed the slith, so he let me go on my way, but just for fun I tried to kill him. Again, instant death. The drake on his own would be hard enough, but him + 3 sentinels? Forget about it. I know one of the options is to kill him, but frankly I doubt it is possible without more invulnerability potions, which again feels stupidly cheap. Then again, I don't have to kill him...

 

Last, Control Foe. More then once, I have seen veterans of Avernum suggest this spell when facing an opponent that summons numerous creatures. I have read this spell works wonders. Well, maybe I'm "doing it wrong" but this spell has proven to be nothing but a waste of time. My priest has a Priest Skill of 17, an Intelligence of 8 and a Spellcraft of 17. Yet for some reason THE DAMN SPELL HARDLY EVER WORKS. Maybe it is because I'm using it in hard boss encounters, like the ones above, but not ONE TIME was I able to charm anything either the lich ever summoned or the sentinels guarding the drake. All I get is "so and so resists the charm spell" I have the Cloak of Arcane spell on just in case, but to no avail. I have yet to see for myself an encounter where this spell was in anyway useful, and it is a bit annoying. Again, in the battles above, I would try over and over and over again, and once my party was dead, I'd reload and do it over. Strangely enough, the Terror spell worked decently, but Control Foe never did. What am I doing wrong? Are there enemies that cannot be charmed?

[Lilith]

If you're having problems moving from one place to another fast, try using Adrenaline Rush.

 

You're not really supposed to kill the drake, or at least not until near the end of the game.

 

Control Foe works on most regular enemies, but it doesn't work on undead or golems, or a few other types of enemy with high mental resistance (like gazers).

[BrownieMix]

This actually makes me feel better, as it figures that the two times I seriously try to use the spell are against enemies that are immune.

 

As for Adrenaline Rush, I tried that, Battle Frenzy AND speed potions - my party simply could never make it across the platform once the lich started summoning creatures. There isn't that much room to move anyway, and it would just be amusing to try and get my entire party across, have them get one square away, and then die. I probably did this quest earlier then I am supposed to, but at one point, with 2 Vile Servants, 2 zombies and a slime in the center along with the lich, I said screw this and quit - at that point, there was literally NO way to get to the side I needed to.

 

This is the problem with this encounter. When you have small amount of space to move + requirement to move in order to live + unlimited spawning enemies that prevent said movement, that = death.

[Randomizer]

It's possible even on torment to clear out enough things to slowly get through the center, but invulnerable potions help here to reduce damage. Control foe on the slime is helpful and concentrated fire to remove a vile servant as your last action when you are at 1 AP.

 

The Eastern Gallery drake is killable, but you need to retreat and take out one sentinel at a time instead of fighting in the center area. I did it on torment and it was a ridiculously hard fight. It's bad even on normal.

 

Control foe is very useful, but in some fights there just isn't anything to use it on that's helpful. Undead, golems, and the sliths around Formello are pretty much immune.

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: BrownieMix

These are three separate complaints that came out of two separate encounters.

First, the lich in the Eastern Galley. Frankly, without the use of invulnerability potions, this quest seems impossible. I understand the supposed "trick" - you have to run to the other side of the platform when a pillar is about to explode. However, I feel this encounter is "cheap" because the lich has unlimited summoning abilities. Since he always stays there, he and his summons slow my party down to the point that when he has three summons all in the center area, my party cannot actually get to the other side, which causes them to all die. I tried this encounter a dozen times, and they all ended the same way - death, because there was just no real way to get to the necessary side.

I agree that there's basically no way to get across the platform because of the summons (although congrats to Randomizer for managing it!). Essentially, this is a timed encounter -- you have to kill the lich before the south pillar activates. I found this to be just barely possible on Normal, but you have to be very careful to maximize your damage and not waste a single action... and it still takes a little luck.

I did it in four tries. Attempt #1: Ran up the middle, engaged the lich in melee, and died when the north platform activated. Attempt #2: Ran for the south bridge, peppered the lich with missile attacks and spells, intended to run for the north bridge after the south pillar activated, but got blocked by summons and died when the south pillar activated. Attempt #3: Really hasted myself, ran for the south bridge, very careful not to waste any actions and to maximize damage, but my priest got hit with terror and, without Repel Spirit, I couldn't do enough damage to kill the lich before the south pillar activated. Attempt #4: Repeat of #3 except without the terror; lich dropped the round the south pillar would have activated (this was on Normal; on Hard or Torment, I still would have died).

So, it took me two tries to figure out what to do and then another two to get it right. You just have to make everything count -- use haste and a speed item to make sure you have 13+ AP/round. Always stop moving when you're down to 11 AP so as not to waste any potential actions from Haste. Use Regen so you don't have to waste actions healing. Ignore the summons. Concentrate on damage; don't waste actions on spells that might fail (Control Foe, Daze, etc.) unless you don't mind refighting the battle over and over until they work. Disruption Wands or a second priest really help to maximize damage; but there's not much you can do if you don't have them.

I may have done this later than you, too; I went around the Eastern Gallery clockwise from the northeast, so this is one of the last quests I did.

Originally Posted By: BrownieMix

Last, Control Foe. More then once, I have seen veterans of Avernum suggest this spell when facing an opponent that summons numerous creatures. I have read this spell works wonders. Well, maybe I'm "doing it wrong" but this spell has proven to be nothing but a waste of time. My priest has a Priest Skill of 17, an Intelligence of 8 and a Spellcraft of 17. Yet for some reason THE DAMN SPELL HARDLY EVER WORKS. Maybe it is because I'm using it in hard boss encounters, like the ones above, but not ONE TIME was I able to charm anything either the lich ever summoned or the sentinels guarding the drake. All I get is "so and so resists the charm spell" I have the Cloak of Arcane spell on just in case, but to no avail. I have yet to see for myself an encounter where this spell was in anyway useful, and it is a bit annoying.

Yeah, I don't get this, either. The powergamers are always extolling the virtues of Control Foe, Slow, and Daze, but those spells never work for me when I need them. They only ever seem useful in fights that I can win without a problem, anyway. In the tough fights they always fail and I end up wishing I'd used the action on an attack spell, instead. Obviously, they're better than I think they are, because the really good players are forever saying how great they are, but I don't get it, either.

[Lilith]

Even with reasonably good magical stats, a 50% success rate is pretty normal for Control Foe against anything worth controlling, but when it does work you've taken several enemies out of the fight at once: not just the enemy you've charmed, but any enemies that then attack the enemy you've charmed. Control Foe actually becomes better on higher difficulty levels because enemies have more health, which means a charmed enemy probably won't get itself killed.

 

Slow is pretty good and is rarely resisted outright, but higher-level enemies have a lower chance to lose a turn from it. Against large swarms of weaker enemies, Daze is better, since it lets you pick them off one at a time.

[BrownieMix]

Thanks for the advice - it's my own fault for trying to use a spell that can't work based on the enemy I'm facing. I did end up winning the fight, although I realized afterwards that if I had two people capable of casting Repel Spirit, I might have been able to win using Fael's method. The fight afterwards when you *really* kill the lich was also a pain, but there I used the narrow terrain and and the enemy AI to win - it actually was a fairly easy fight.

 

I'm going to skip the drake for now - just not worth it at the moment.

[Randomizer]

Use wand of death instead of disruption wand since it has about 80-100 damage versus the lich.

[Student of Trinity]

There are lots of fights that are doable on Normal without CF, but that are only doable on Torment with CF. That's because all the monsters are tougher and do more damage on Torment — and that includes the ones you charm. So CF is one of the very few player abilities that gets better on higher difficulties so as to keep pace with the monsters; relative to the monsters, everything else gets weaker, and CF stays the same. Spine shield and Riposte are the only other things I can think of that work like this, so they become much more important on Torment than they are on Normal.

[VCH]

On another note is there some way to prevent parry or riposte? I'm getting sick of guys doing that to me (torment). Is it easier to parry a sword, because my dual-wielder seems to suffer from parry and riposte more than my pole user.

[Lilith]

Your dual-wielder is being parried more because your dual-wielder is making more attacks. To avoid your attacks being parried, attack with magic instead.

[monolith94]

Where is this eastern gallery lich?

[VCH]

Just finished him off. I used Skribbane again for the second time. It's so useful for tough fights! The flaming sword with the Jinx sword seem to really take hp out of the lich. I gave my two fighters invulnerability potions and just left them in the centre (ward of elements on), pounding on the lich and my two spell casters ran back and forth casting dispel spirit on him. I

 

The construct fight was pretty easy after that.

[BrownieMix]

Yeah, the construct fight is comparatively easy, especially if you use the narrow terrain to your advantage.

 

This fight reminded me of the Horror Slith from A5, and the frustration I had when fighting it, followed by the feeling of actually accomplishing something when it was dead.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: monolith94

Where is this eastern gallery lich?

Below the Skeletal Ruins north of the Eastern Gallery center area.

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: BrownieMix

Thanks for the advice - it's my own fault for trying to use a spell that can't work based on the enemy I'm facing. I did end up winning the fight, although I realized afterwards that if I had two people capable of casting Repel Spirit, I might have been able to win using Fael's method.

Actually, I only had one character who could cast Repel Spirit -- two would have made it much easier. I just used a lot of Disruption Wands (as Randomizer says, Death Wands would have been better, but I just assumed they didn't work on undead, so I didn't even try; d'oh!). And, like I said, I killed the lich with my third character on the round the south pylon would have activated, so it was a very near thing.

Originally Posted By: BrownieMix

The fight afterwards when you *really* kill the lich was also a pain, but there I used the narrow terrain and and the enemy AI to win - it actually was a fairly easy fight.

This, on the other hand, was the only fight I've run into yet where I had to give up and come back part way through the next area before I could beat it.

Obviously, however BrownieMix and I play, it's the complete opposite of each other, since each of us found one of these two encounters very easy and the other almost impossible -- but we each pick the opposite one.

[BrownieMix]

Originally Posted By: Fael

Obviously, however BrownieMix and I play, it's the complete opposite of each other, since each of us found one of these two encounters very easy and the other almost impossible -- but we each pick the opposite one.

hahaha - I saw your gazer response first, and didn't understand what you were talking about...until now.

I don't usually use wands, instead saving them for when I absolutely need them. The lich fight qualified as such, I was just not smart enough to realize that. I think I got so frustrated at the encounter I just used the blunt force approach, instead of taking a step back and working it out in the way you did.

As for the second fight, this was easy only because I guessed right about the AI. As you know, when you activate the sentinels, there are four of them and the surround you quickly. What I did was I went into combat mode, put everyone but my fighter back in the bushes, then battle frenzied my fighter and activated the fight. In the bushes, the walking grid is only one square wide, meaning only one enemy can get through at a time. I ran my fighter back to the rest of the group, then watched as one sentinel chased me. Once the computer saw it couldn't send anyone else to attack me because the previous sentinel was blocking the path, they didn't move - sure, they kept summoning creatures, but they didn't actually move towards me. This allowed my fighters to switch off and pummel the one sentinel, my priest to have time/space to heal everyone, and my mage to cast battle frenzied lightning spray through the bushes. Basically, I could attack them, but they couldn't attack me. The other sentinels never really fought back, and I killed two of them with my mage alone. When there was only one left, I bull rushed it, and it went down easy.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: BrownieMix

Originally Posted By: Fael

Obviously, however BrownieMix and I play, it's the complete opposite of each other, since each of us found one of these two encounters very easy and the other almost impossible -- but we each pick the opposite one.

hahaha - I saw your gazer response first, and didn't understand what you were talking about...until now.

I don't usually use wands, instead saving them for when I absolutely need them. The lich fight qualified as such, I was just not smart enough to realize that. I think I got so frustrated at the encounter I just used the blunt force approach, instead of taking a step back and working it out in the way you did.

As for the second fight, this was easy only because I guessed right about the AI. As you know, when you activate the sentinels, there are four of them and the surround you quickly. What I did was I went into combat mode, put everyone but my fighter back in the bushes, then battle frenzied my fighter and activated the fight. In the bushes, the walking grid is only one square wide, meaning only one enemy can get through at a time. I ran my fighter back to the rest of the group, then watched as one sentinel chased me. Once the computer saw it couldn't send anyone else to attack me because the previous sentinel was blocking the path, they didn't move - sure, they kept summoning creatures, but they didn't actually move towards me. This allowed my fighters to switch off and pummel the one sentinel, my priest to have time/space to heal everyone, and my mage to cast battle frenzied lightning spray through the bushes. Basically, I could attack them, but they couldn't attack me. The other sentinels never really fought back, and I killed two of them with my mage alone. When there was only one left, I bull rushed it, and it went down easy.

Yeah I thought that would work. I didn't bother with an actual strategy for that one though. I just went directly at them with my fighters using again two invulnerability potions (I have lots any way), and a speed scroll. Arcane blow is really useful too. It does ~100 to 130 damage to them.

I forgot to mention that in the Lich fight I actually beat him with my first human character dead at his feet. Normally that would make me reload beacause of the lost XP, or take my party out of combat mode and cast return life (risky). But I decided to continue on, as he's two levels up on my other characters any way.

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: BrownieMix

I don't usually use wands, instead saving them for when I absolutely need them.

Me, too. That's why I still had all my Disruption Wands for that fight. Usually, it means I end up wasting items, finishing the game with a whole lot of unused items. Every now and then it pays off big, though.

Originally Posted By: BrownieMix

As for the second fight, this was easy only because I guessed right about the AI. As you know, when you activate the sentinels, there are four of them and the surround you quickly. What I did was I went into combat mode, put everyone but my fighter back in the bushes, then battle frenzied my fighter and activated the fight. In the bushes, the walking grid is only one square wide, meaning only one enemy can get through at a time.

Mmm, good thought. I had my guys in a corner with a couple of summons (another tactic favored by the veterans that I don't find all that useful in most fights, but was quite helpful here) on the outside. But now that you mention it, the path obviously would have been much better. D'oh!