Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 There are several useful hidden skills that can be obtained when you have reached enough levels in other skills. The precursor skill levels have changed from earlier game. You must get the precursor skills from a trainer or using skill points. It doesn't count if they are from traits, items, basins, or a certain priest's blessing. Quick Strike - 5 Dexterity and 6 Melee or Pole Weapons Parry - 5 Dexterity and 5 Defense Blademaster -9 Melee or Pole and 6 Strength Anatomy - 4 Intelligence and 7 Melee or Pole Weapons Gymnastics - 6 Dexterity and 4 Strength Pathfinder - 4 Intelligence and 6 Nature Lore Dual Wielding - 4 Dexterity and 7 Melee or Pole Weapons Resistance - 5 Dexterity, 6 Endurance and 7 Hardiness Magical Efficiency - 5 Spellcraft and 6 Intelligence Lethal Blow - 5 Anatomy and 5 Blademaster Riposte - 6 Parry and 6 Blademaster Sharpshooter - 4 Dexterity and 6 Bows or Thrown Weapons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk BrownieMix Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Thanks for posting this - I was using precursor skill levels from previous games. It seems some skills are easier to get while others are harder...maybe? I think Blademaster is harder to get this time around, while Sharpshooter seems easier...my starting archer could increase Sharpshooter right off the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Student of Trinity Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 The problem with the above list is that only levels obtained by spending skill points count toward unlocking the special skills. So it's confusing if you're non-human or have a special trait or an item that boosts your abilities. You'll keep thinking the special skill should be unlocked, but it isn't yet. The list below should be more clear: it lists the cost in skill points you have to reach, to unlock the special skill. So for instance, once your next point of Intelligence is costing 7 skill points, and your next point of Melee Weapons or Pole Weapons will cost 8 skill points, then Anatomy is unlocked. If you haven't had any artificial boosts to Intell or your weapons skills, then that will be at skill values Int 4 and Weapons 7. But it could be higher if you've boosted skills with items or training. Skill point prices go up only every other step. You'll pay 7 skill points for intelligence twice, then your next two Int points will cost 8 skill each, and so on. So in the list that follows, 7b means that you have to have already bought one ability point at the cost of 7; after buying this one, your cost will go up to 8. If this seems confusing, just save up some skill points, or activate the editor, and mess around. I've been able to unlock Pathfinder, and all the other skills. It's possible this list has changed slightly in the released game — I determined it several betas ago. Quick Strike - Dexterity 7b and Melee or Pole Weapons 7b Parry - Dexterity 7b and Defense 4b Blademaster - Melee or Pole 8b and Strength 8 Anatomy - Intelligence 7 and Melee or Pole Weapons 8 Gymnastics - Dexterity 8 and Strength 7 Pathfinder - Intelligence 8 and Nature Lore 4 Dual Wield - Dexterity 7 and Melee or Pole Weapons 7b Resistance - Dexterity 7b, Endurance 7 and Hardiness 4b Magical Eff. - Spellcraft 5b and Intelligence 8 Lethal Blow - Anatomy 6b and Blademaster 7b Riposte - Parry 6 and Blademaster 8 Sharpshooter- Dexterity 7 and Bows or Thrown Weapons 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Overall it seems like most special skills are easier to get now. In particular, Magical Efficiency is now incredibly easy to get, and Blademaster no longer requires you to spend skill points on a skill that's useless to you except for battle disciplines. Lethal Blow is still probably not worth it, but there's now a very good argument for melee characters trying to build toward Riposte, especially if they're not going to dual-wield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Not having played the game yet -- the changes to Blademaster and Magical Efficiency are huge. Blademaster makes offensively focused melee characters more viable, assuming it still provides fatigue reduction. In combination with the minor spell damage reduction the removal of Spellcraft causes, I wonder if this may make them a good option for damage output. On the other hand, being able to access Magical Efficiency essentially for free means that, assuming it is as strong as it was in A5, you can build a character centered around that skill that can cast essentially unlimited spells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Removal of Magery, you mean. I think I may actually try an A6 party with two tanks: one melee and one pole. I'm pretty excited by the new options available to physical-oriented characters, and I don't really need three healers if Magical Efficiency is going to be so easy to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Blademaster still seems to reduce fatigue. Lethal blow applies to spell damage too. Still very expensive for a spellcaster to get since there isn't a trainer for it, but a few items give some nice chances for extra damage. It's easily possible with the right items to get weapon damage (swords 11-33 damage) and 10-12 strength, 10 melee weapons, blademaster 20 for the last part of the game. For dual wielding I was seeing damage per strike in the 50 to 70 range with up to 8 strikes per round (6 was extremely common) at 10 quick action. Spell damage levels easily get into the 50+ range with divine touch trait and the best items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I assume you are talking about strikes per round while under some kind of hasting effect, like that battle discipline? Otherwise QA has gotten an order of magnitude better. How does DT boost spell damage w/o Magery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Student of Trinity Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 DT gives steady boosts to Spellcraft now instead of Magery. With high enough Blademaster and some fatigue-recovering items, you can be on continuous Battle Fury (or whatever the last Battle Discipline is called), and get two attacks each round; each dual-wielded weapon can get a second swing from quick action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast VCH Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Could someone post a short description of what each of the skills does and whether that particular skill is worth getting or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity DT gives steady boosts to Spellcraft now instead of Magery. Thanks to the skill system, this makes absolutely no difference. —Alorael, who assumes the skills mostly act as they did before. The exception is Dual Wielding, of course. It's a newcomer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Student of Trinity Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The only one I'm really sure about at this point is Lethal Blow: the damage boosts it gives are really dramatic. At low levels they don't occur very often, but often enough to be worthwhile. You can get LB up to around 7 or something just with training and items, and I would say it's worth paying for the training and equipping the gear. Unlocking LB is probably only worthwhile at very high levels, or for singletons. High Blademaster is something you probably want anyway for fatigue reduction and damage, and it's not unreasonably expensive. But the other thing you need to unlock LB is Anatomy, and unlocking it takes a fair bit more Intelligence than you would otherwise give a fighter type. I can't really tell how useful Anatomy itself is. Most of your tough opponents in this game are one kind of humanoid or other, so it ought to at least apply, but I haven't experimented to see what difference Anatomy makes in my attacks. A singleton is almost certain to unlock Anatomy anyway, though, by raising Intelligence for spellcasting, and so going for Lethal Blow is probably a clear win in this case. High Lethal Blow, Quick Action, and Dual Wielding will probably make quite the buzzsaw for a late game singleton. That's what I'm hoping, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Zummi Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Woe be the one who unlocks Dual Wield with Pole Weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Student of Trinity Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 At one point in beta there was an enchanted shield that gave a +2 bonus to Dual Wielding. No joke. I sure hope Jeff fixed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Jeff did fix it after I mentioned that all the old Magery bonus items were giving Dual Wielding bonuses. The Runed Plate, Runed Helmet, and Crystalline Aegis just had the descriptions reflecting that Dual Wielding was now in the Magery slot for skills. These should have been all changed to Spellcraft. There is one item that does give a Dual Wielding bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 EXPLOITABLE BUG Like Nethergate but unlike A4 and A5, it is possible to raise a prerequisite, unlock a hidden skill, raise that skill, then remove the points in the prerequisite. The hidden skill will relock, but the points you bought in it will remain. In other words, with varying amounts of stockpiled skill points, you can buy hidden skills while ignoring the prerequisites!!! Probably the most practical application of this is that you can access Dual Wielding without having to waste skill points on Dexterity. This is not practical for the most laborious hidden skills, like Blademaster. However, if you are unlocking Blademaster anyway, this lets you skip Int to get to Anatomy, and if you use an Anatomy trainer it even makes it practical to skip straight to Lethal Blow... making Lethal Blow a lot more usable! You can also access Pathfinder without wasting points, but Pathfinder is a waste in itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I noticed that too. Another good use for the bug is to get 8-10 Parry at the start of the game, which is all you'll ever need to buy, and then de-invest in Defense, which is a useless skill at higher difficulties. I decided not to take advantage of it, though, because exploiting bugs to make the party more powerful sort of defeats the purpose of playing on Torment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Pathfinder takes 4 Intelligence and 6 Nature Lore. I just verified it. -S- P.S. I fought very aggressively during testing to have Jeff finally alter and lower requirements for Lethal Blow, Riposte, and Blademaster to make them viable investments after several games where they were practically inaccessible. Did anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Blademaster and Riposte were both perfectly viable in A5 as well, although probably not until after Muck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Their skill requirements didn't make good sense. Having to train in both Pole and Melee to unlock Blademaster meant some significant wasted skill points just to unlock these for fighters who use either a sword or pole, but not both. That was a significant part of my complaint. -S- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Oh, they're certainly more viable in A6 (although not by all that much, since the skill requirements have been raised even though the requirement to have both Melee and Pole was removed). But a character that built toward Riposte in A5 could still be very effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Student of Trinity Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Pathfinder needs to have the next level of Intelligence cost you 8 skill points, and the next level of Nature Lore cost you 4. This is not the same as needing 8 Intelligence and 4 NL to unlock Pathfinder; in fact, what it means in terms of Int and NL levels depends on what bonuses you have. Putting on an Int-boosting belt does not get you closer to unlocking Pathfinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Synergy Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Ah, I see what Randomizer did now. He needs to fix that in his first post. -S- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Rionep Ecnirp Etlevs Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 So I can't tell, is the ambidextrous trait worth choosing? I play on Normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Nah. Dual Wielding skill isn't that expensive, and there are better things to spend your two trait slots on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Specifically, Pure Spirit, Natural Mage, and Elite Warrior each end up granting you about 45-60 skill points worth of skills, over the course of a game (for a character that is already investing moderately in those skills). EW potentially saves more since both Blademaster and Parry have to be unlocked, which can be a bit of a waste. Divinely Touched is worth even more than that, without even accounting for the 20% armor bonus. Dual Wielding saves about 30 skill points for a dual wielder. Nimble Fingers is similar, though has the disadvantage that you usually want Tool Use early and not late. Deadeye is similar as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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