The Shaper Council and the Purity Agent[G5]

[Untamed Banana Slug]

So, just for fun, I played through most of Alwan's main quests, and then switched to Taygen. I completed the Purity Agent, and hey presto, the Shaper Council is whining and crying because Taygen released it.

 

Um, what?

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm perhaps the most pro-Rebel individual on this board, and find a number of Taygen's beliefs completely off the wall. But if the Shaper Council has a means by which they can decisively end the war while causing minimum loss of human life (which they apparently value far more than creation life) and preserve the integrity of their empire, don't they, as Shapers, have a duty to utilise it? There is very little difference between the Unbound and the Purity Agent, except the intentions of the individuals who made them. The Council doesn't need to agree with Taygen's nutcase beliefs to see the benefits of releasing the Purity Agent, they can simply write off the loyal creation deaths as collateral.

 

The Council's whining about killing the 'loyal' creations is nonsense, because they don't seem to have a problem with their ancestors wiping out an entire species (ie. the drayks) irrelevant of loyalty. They also don't have a problem with forcing their 'children' to work lousy dangerous jobs (ie. mining), and reabsorbing them when they complain.

 

There is also the issue of the many loyal outsider humans who are fighting and dying on the front lines, and who suffer terribly in Alwan's ending in the war of attrition. And there will probably be suffering further down the track, because the Shapers will have to take the Ashen Isles back a generation later, and I doubt the drakons/drayks will hand it over willingly.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that if the Shapers have the option between slow and halting genocide or fast and thorough genocide (thanks Thuryl), then they owe it to their own sect and citizens to choose the latter.

[Spddin Ignis]

the drayks were probably destroyed when the rebelled at one point before geneforge. Killing creations is callateral because the shapers created them they have the right to uncreate them. Im also sure that the shapers will keep close tabs on the ashen isles to make sure that no shaping is going on.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

the drayks were probably destroyed when the rebelled at one point before geneforge.

The serviles *are* rebelling in Geneforge. If the Shapers of past generations were justified in targeting all drayks for extermination because *some* drayks rebelled, why isn't Taygen justified in doing the same for serviles?

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Killing creations is callateral because the shapers created them they have the right to uncreate them.

So why didn't you vote for Taygen? As I pointed out in my previous post, Taygen's ending brings a decisive end to the war that results in minimum loss of human life. Alwan's ending results in a war of attrition where the rebels become more and more desperate, producing an escalation of the bloodshed. And it isn't even a complete victory, the rebels still have the Ashen Isles!

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Im also sure that the shapers will keep close tabs on the ashen isles to make sure that no shaping is going on.

And what will they do if there is? The Ashen Isles is an island fortress. Trying to take it would be the equivalent of an assault on Japan, there would be massive casualties.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

The serviles *are* rebelling in Geneforge. If the Shapers of past generations were justified in targeting all drayks for extermination because *some* drayks rebelled, why isn't Taygen justified in doing the same for serviles?

Taygen is just as justified as the Shapers of old, or so it seems. However, just because both have the same amount of justification, they are not necessarily justified. We don't know the exact conditions leading up to the ban on drayks, but it may well have been an overreaction. Also, the ban on drayks affects just drayks, whereas Taygen's agent would destroy all creations (or at least the animal-esque ones), including the ornks used by many as a primary source of food.

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The Ashen Isles is an island fortress. Trying to take it would be the equivalent of an assault on Japan, there would be massive casualties.

First off, comparing the Shaper world to ours really doesn't work. When's the last time you saw a fyora hanging around outside your window?
Also, who says that the Shapers will make a move on the Ashen Islands any time soon? If I were in their position, I would leave it alone long enough for all the currently living creations and humans to die out, and then consider diplomatic relations with them, with the long-term hope of reuniting the whole place.

[Acky]

For the record, there was never a Drayk rebellion. The Shapers just saw how they were intelligent enough to have more complex emotions, like greed, and destroyed them.

 

The Shapers have always looked to their creations as their slaves. Servants if you want to avoid the truth, but nevertheless, they were slaves. Slaves are expensive to maintain. You have to feed them, care for them, and make sure they are somewhat healthy. So, basically, slaves (creations) are merchandise. Now, lets say all your merchandise suddenly got up and started attacking you. A guy comes to you saying he can get them too stop attacking you, but it would destroy the merchandise in the process. While you don't want to be attacked, do you want to lose all you merchandise in the process? Especially when there's another saying he can stop the merchandise from attacking you (Alwan, which is why he has so much support).

 

Now, translate that all to Geneforge. Taygen has a solution to end the war, but in the process, it will wipe out all creation life. All of it. Those serviles outside Perkalia? They will die. The creations protecting Mera? Dead. All Ornks will die too. Everywhere, from the Nodye Coast to the Forsaken Lands. Try to picture the massive deaths that would occur on a continental scale. Think of the huge loss of labor, of food the Shapers would have to go through.

 

So, it shouldn't be a surprise that the vast majority of Shapers would not want this too happen. The Shapers are tyrants, but they are not mass murderers.

 

(btw, I'm a rebel)

 

The Last Archon

[Alorael at Large]

As others have said, as a practical matter the Purity Agent is a huge headache. Killing all creations everywhere does nearly as much damage to Shapers as it does to rebels. And on the moral side, most Shapers aren't genocidal maniacs. They want the drayks and drakons dead, and they want the rebels dead. They don't want loyal serviles, useful turrets, and hundreds of thousands of ornks dead just because.

 

—Alorael, who could see the Purity Agent being deployed if loyalists and their property could be inoculated against it first. As it is, it makes more sense as a weapon of last resort if the drakons are battering down the gates.

[Spddin Ignis]

its better then losing a large amount of humans. If you were a shaper and had to make the choice between human and creation what choice would you make?

[Acky]

How can you claim that one life is superir than another when serviles are just as alive as Humans. They feel emotions, they can be good or bad, evil or just. What makes them inferior to humans? Because they were made by humans? You were made by your parents; does that mean they have a right to decide whether you life or die when you're an adult? I think not.

 

The Last Archon

[Spddin Ignis]

if you were a shaper and you had to choose between shapers and humans what would you do Ackrovan.

[Acky]

Are you sure you worded that correctly? If so, then please rephrase the question, because it doesn't really make sense.

 

The Last Archon

[Spddin Ignis]

would you choose to kill humans, or would you choose to kill creations.

[A less presumptuous name.]

He is asking whether you would chose the life of your fellow Shapers or ... I think creations, but I'm not sure.

 

Anyway, this is another reason for not releasing the agent. What makes up the bulk and front line of the Shaper armies? What happens when all of them go bye-bye? Everyone who has a beef with the Shapers can just march up and do what they want. There aren't nearly enough human soldiers to maintain the peace, especially since the Drakons (I think) aren't completely killed by the agent. The Shapers would loose all of their security within their own territory.

[Spddin Ignis]

shapers can still shape. Human vs. Alpha...who wins

[Acky]

Thats a stupid question. You're basically asking me if I would shoot a cat before a dog, or vice versa. If I was just pointing a baton at one or the other, then I would chose the creation, on the off chance its more of an animal than a living being. However, that is not Geneforge. Geneforge includes the complex problems of the tyranical rule of the Shapers and the irresponsibility of the Lifecrafters. If that were the choice, then I would leave the Shapers and go with the Lifecrafters.

 

The Last Archon

[Spddin Ignis]

no, im asking you would you shoot a human before a cat.

[Acky]

What?

 

....The cat than.

[Spddin Ignis]

What makes the humans life more valuble than a cat's?

[Acky]

I'd kill the cat because there's be less reprucusions to deal with.

 

The Last Archonj

[Spddin Ignis]

no, you would kill the cat because you think there is more value to human life. If you step on an ant or kill a fly you dont care, and dont say you do.

[Øther]

Now you aren't even talking about geneforge, and what you are saying goes against what you said before.

[Spddin Ignis]

i was making a point. He asked why does the a humans life have more value then a creations. im proving to him that an animals life has less value then a humans so what makes creations so different.

[Øther]

So a cat, fly, and an ant are the same kinds of things as thinking, emotion feeling serviles and other such creations? Just because they aren't humans doesn't mean humans should be valued over them.

[Acky]

Edit: I was typing this before Spddin made his response to Doom Warrior.

 

Agreed. If this conversation isn't turned around, the topic might have to get locked.

 

Now, I understand what you're trying to get at Spddin. That of I care about intellitgent life that isn't human, than I'm a hypocrite if I don't care if a fly gets killed, or a cat. Now, I shall make it crystal clear. Any INTELLIGENT life deserves too be treated as such. This includes serviles, Drayks, Gazers, and (even) Drakons. You can't judge a group by the actions of a few (granted, this is hard to apply to Drakons, but there are and have been Drakons in the games that are not kill-crazy, Gazers that are not insane, and Drayks who treat you fine) Not all Drakons are crazy, and not all Shapers are insane. And not all creations are intelligent. But there are intelligent creations, and they should be treated as equals.

 

The Last Archon

[Spddin Ignis]

okay, i agree with most of that. But if the shapers had to treat all intellegent creations as equals, they wouldn't make any intellegent creations. And if they did treat them equal to humans (and could be accepted into the shaper sect), the ones who didn't get accepted would still rebel, wanting the power of shaping for themselves. I agree that the shapers shouldn't have barred the drayks and should treat serviles better, but you would still have those crazed creations and jealous outsiders who will want to destroy the shapers. The shapers do not keep suck tight control over their creations because they or evil or tyranical, but because like most people, they are afraid. Look in the Dera Reaches if you have your creations with you...the people get terrrified. The shapers are no different sometimes. They use there rules not to horde their power, but to keep others safe. They can be selfish sometimes, but they brought things to the world that could've never been imagined. The shapers create some creations to protect them, these creations may sometimes be able to rise up and kill the shaper, therefor the shapers make creations (like servant minds), that have more capability then them in somewas, but are limited in othere. Intellegent creations are usually made physically disabled, and strong creations are ussualy made stupid, but when you have creations such as drakons and drayks who have both characteristics, they become a threat and that threat must be nuetralized

[Acky]

Fair enough.

 

The Last Archon

[Øther]

In the Dera reaches, the people are only terrified because Taygen told them to be. And the shapers are pretty selfish most of the time, not just some. And of course there will always be angry creations and people since they can't get what they want. Could there possibly be any other way? And even if there is a strong, smart creation, does that mean that if one attacked someone before, that if one comes up to you and says hello, then you do everything you can to kill it? They make smart and weak or strong and stupid creations so that they can control them easier. It is easy to control something that, even though it is smart, sits on a tray its whole life, so it knows nothing but what you tell it. It is easy to control something that is so dumb, it practically can't think for itself. It is more difficult to control something that is even slightly smart, is even slightly strong, and has even a small amount of free will, so of course it must be destroyed.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Trans-Dianetic Ultra-Galvanometer

As others have said, as a practical matter the Purity Agent is a huge headache. Killing all creations everywhere does nearly as much damage to Shapers as it does to rebels. And on the moral side, most Shapers aren't genocidal maniacs. They want the drayks and drakons dead, and they want the rebels dead. They don't want loyal serviles, useful turrets, and hundreds of thousands of ornks dead just because.

Except that the Shaper Empire is close to destruction. Unbound and rogues are running freely throughout the lands, drakons are lodged firmly in the Dera Reaches, there are Secret laboratories under the Shaper capital cities, and both routes to the Shaper citadel are blocked.

If you are a Shaper who has to choose between lots of dead creations, or lots of dead humans, Shapers, and the possible destruction of the Shaper Empire, don't you have a responsibility to release the Purity Agent?

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As it is, it makes more sense as a weapon of last resort if the drakons are battering down the gates.

Things are pretty desperate for the Shapers in GF5. Granted, they are in a stalemate with the Rebels, but their people are suffering horribly and rogues are everywhere.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

its better then losing a large amount of humans. If you were a shaper and had to make the choice between human and creation what choice would you make?

*Precisely*

I'm not claiming that servile life is superior/inferior to human life, but am pointing out that the reaction of the Shapers to the Purity Agent is inconsistent with their beliefs and actions throughout the entire series. The fact of the matter is that from GF1-GF4, the predominant view is that the creations are mere tools, and the lives of humans (especially Shapers) are worth far more.

If the Shapers believe that, then they should be quite willing to release the Purity Agent if it means that preservation of human lives and the integrity of their Empire. Remaking creations is a large inconvenience, but having rebel serviles, Unbound and drakons scorching yours lands and killing loyal humans is infinitely worse.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

Except that the Shaper Empire is close to destruction. Unbound and rogues are running freely throughout the lands, drakons are lodged firmly in the Dera Reaches, there are Secret laboratories under the Shaper capital cities, and both routes to the Shaper citadel are blocked.

First, have you been to the storm plains? Second, have you played through any end-game scenario other than the Drakon's? I think that just maybe a bunch of people end up going to the Shaper Citadel, meaning that it's not completely surrounded.

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Things are pretty desperate for the Shapers in GF5. Granted, they are in a stalemate with the Rebels, but their people are suffering horribly and rogues are everywhere.

Stalemate? Again, have you seen the storm plains? It is true that, after the release of the unbound, the Shapers did lose a good amount of ground, but they have started to take that back and, again, see the storm plains, beaten the rebels back to their stronghold and prevented them from making another wave of unbound.


Finally, the Shapers would suffer more than they would gain from releasing the purity agent. With most/all of the body guards and patrol units in many places dying, the Shapers are going to be in a pretty tight spot. What would happen to the U.S. if 90% of our military died in the course of a week as a result of our own actions (and this is not a debate on the value of creation v. human life)? Yes, there are plenty of people to replace them, but that would take time. The same holds true with the Shapers. They can make more creations, but that takes time, and while that is happening, the Drakons, who are not, if I recall correctly, completely affected by the agent, will wreck havoc on the Shapers.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master1

First, have you been to the storm plains?

Yes. There are rogues *everywhere*. There are rogues right outside the city gates, for Christ's sakes (bugs to the east, an entire assault force to the south).

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Second, have you played through any end-game scenario other than the Drakon's?

I've played through Drakon, Taygen and Alwan. I've read through the ending text for Litalia and Astoria.

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I think that just maybe a bunch of people end up going to the Shaper Citadel, meaning that it's not completely surrounded.

But there are rogues perfusing many of the paths to the Citadel. Even an Unbound manages to make it along the Citadel's North Road.

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Stalemate?

Yes, stalemate, although I guess you could argue that the rebels are winning. Rebels have strong footholds in several Shapers provinces (the Mera Tev and Dera Reaches), whereas the Shapers apparently have no footholdd in Rebel lands.

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Again, have you seen the storm plains?

Yes. Remember the glaahks in the Hatra ruins and those borer bugs outside of it? The assault in the Perkalia Orchards? The bug infestation outside the north gate? The podling crossroads full of, well, podlings.

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It is true that, after the release of the unbound, the Shapers did lose a good amount of ground, but they have started to take that back

They took a small amount of ground back, and that's about it. Rogues lay all three of their mountain fortresses to siege, and Rebels are deeply entrenched in their lands.

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Finally, the Shapers would suffer more than they would gain from releasing the purity agent. With most/all of the body guards and patrol units in many places dying, the Shapers are going to be in a pretty tight spot.

Not really. They'd just recreate new ones, which is exactly what they do. As we've seen in the game, experienced Shapers can apparently create swarms of creations in a short period of time.

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What would happen to the U.S. if 90% of our military died in the course of a week as a result of our own actions (and this is not a debate on the value of creation v. human life)?

"First off, comparing the Shaper world to ours really doesn't work. When's the last time you saw a fyora hanging around outside your window?"

[Spddin Ignis]

How are drakons loged firmly in the Derareaches. I have only seen ONE drakon in the entire dera reaches. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and should replay the game. Also you are refuting your earlier claims about the shapers. Also if you played through all the geneforge games you would know that some creations are more complicated. For example if they release the purity agent, all creations die. The shapers shape new creations a week later. The purity agent is a virus.It is not a one second event. The atomic bomb effected japan for many years to come after the bombing and the purity agent will have the same effect considering that it is a virus.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

How are drakons loged firmly in the Derareaches. I have only seen ONE drakon in the entire dera reaches.

There ya go. The drakons has a strong presence in the Dera Reaches, as even one Shaper is an army. This is demonstrated by all the Unbound and rogues directly outside the capital of the Dera Reaches.

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Also you are refuting your earlier claims about the shapers.

How so?

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Also if you played through all the geneforge games you would know that some creations are more complicated.

Which ones? Glaahks? Kyshakks? Because in the final battle against Ghaldring, three regular Shapers are just conjuring them up in minutes.

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For example if they release the purity agent, all creations die.

Precisely. The Drakons besieging Shaper territory? Weakened sufficiently to kill with ease. The Unbound ravaging Mera-Tev and Dera Reaches? Also weakened. The rogues swarming across every Shaper province and killing innocent civilians? Gone. The rebellious serviles? Gone.

The purity agent is essentially salvation for the Shaper Empire, much as the Unbound was salvation for the Rebellion. So it boggles the mind that the Shapers were so staunchly against it because, wait for it... they consider creations to be their 'children', despite the previous four games implying the exact opposite. And they also forget about the many outsider humans and Shapers they could save if they just released the purity agent.

If you're going to commit genocide, at least do so in a fashion which causes minimal loss of life to those you are claiming to protect.

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The shapers shape new creations a week later. The purity agent is a virus.It is not a one second event. The atomic bomb effected japan for many years to come after the bombing and the purity agent will have the same effect considering that it is a virus.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

[ex post slarto]

The previous four games really showed a spectrum of opinion on the part of shapers. Some would never consider creations children, but others would. Alwan, admittedly, did quite an about-face between G3 (very cold to creations) and that line about them being children in the G5 ending sequence. But there are plenty of examples of strict loyalists who nonetheless care deeply about creations in previous games.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

What spectrum of opinion was shown in Geneforge 1-4? And how many Shapers placed the same value on creation life as on human/Shaper life?

[Acky]

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Which ones? Glaahks? Kyshakks? Because in the final battle against Ghaldring, three regular Shapers are just conjuring them up in minutes.

There has been many instances in the games where it has been brought up that if a Shaper rapidly creates a creation, it will not survive in the long run, even though they are being made in a proffesional way. A.S., the Shapers in the end game will have a made a complete Glaahk, but the Glaahk will not be able to live for very long, only perhaps, lets say, a year. In another instance, a Shaper would be in his/her lab making a creation. Since they'll be at ease and can focus their complete attention towards the creation, that Glaahk will live for about 10 years.

Shaping is not like microwaving if you intend to get good results.

The Last Archon

[*i]

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I have only seen ONE drakon in the entire dera reaches. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and should replay the game.

Shaper Spddin, let's try to keep our discussions cordial here. In other words, please choose language that is a bit softer and less personal. Thanks!

[Øther]

In the dera reaches, I have seen one drakon, and two unbound. And then there are all the tons of nasty rouges that go with them. Just because there aren't many Drakons, doesn't mean the rebellion isn't there. The people in Zepher Oasis even partly knew about the Drakon, yet the most they did was send you is you accepted the quest.

[Student of Trinity]

Keep in mind that the Shaper Council is dominated by the three coastal representatives, whose provinces are enormously richer and more developed than the war-torn frontiers we see in the games. Alwan and Astoria may oppose Purity on principle, but the coastal three are presumably thinking about their advanced and sophisticated societies, and how they depend entirely upon masses of loyal and happy creations. The coastal provinces have seen no Unbound and no rebellious serviles. There, the creations are like the happy children doing their chores on the big Shaper farm.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Keep in mind that the Shaper Council is dominated by the three coastal representatives, whose provinces are enormously richer and more developed than the war-torn frontiers we see in the games.

And they are the only ones in the Council (apart from Taygen, or course) who agree to releasing the Purity Agent, precisely because they are so frightened of the war reaching their pristine lands.

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There, the creations are like the happy children doing their chores on the big Shaper farm.

Happy children that they can recreate with a flick of their hands. Which is precisely what Litalia did in Drypeak. She destroyed an entire village of disgruntled serviles and replaced them when happy, dumb serviles, and she was still an apprentice. Or was she a newly minted Shaper? Either way, she had far less experience than the average Shaper, but was more than capable of creating a host of serviles.

Granted, it's an inconvenience to have to recreate villages of ornks and servile and whatnot, but it's far better than the 'inconvenience' of having your empire torn to pieces, and multitudes of your citizens dying.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior

In the dera reaches, I have seen one drakon, and two unbound. And then there are all the tons of nasty rouges that go with them. Just because there aren't many Drakons, doesn't mean the rebellion isn't there. The people in Zepher Oasis even partly knew about the Drakon, yet the most they did was send you is you accepted the quest.

What really grinds of my nerves is that the Shapers (especially the Shaper Council) are so undeservedly arrogant, so much so that I'd oppose their tyrannical rule far more than drakons simply because they no longer deserve to be on top.

It's obvious that Jeff made an effort to demonstrate how insular and slow to act the Shaper Council is, and he succeeded to such a degree that it boggles the mind. Despite possessing an enormous amount of power, top quality Shapers hide behind fortress walls while outsider humans do the fighting and dying (just witness Perkalia Orchards. Not ONE Shaper or Creation is present to assist the outsider humans).

I really despise that sort of weakness, and it's also nauseating that the Shapers would deny creations and outsider humans the ability to defend themselves, and then hide behind those same disempowered creations and outsider humans when they meet any serious opposition. Contrast that behaviour to the Drakons, who are proactive and willing to take calculated risks.

They have infiltrators in every Shaper province, working to destabilize the Shapers.

Click to reveal..

Ghaldring is based on the front lines, and the non-Ghaldring endings stress that it wasn't in his nature to hide away from the action. Ghaldring and Ahkari spearhead an assault on the Shaper Citadel, at the risk of their own lives. And finally, the whole drakon army is willing to march on the coastal provinces, despite the mass loss to their numbers.

When the Drakons took heavy casualties in Geneforge 4 and realised that conventional warfare wasn't getting them anywhere, they withdrew, yes. But not to cower and hide, but to complete the Unbound project.

This is why the Rebellion was so successful. The Drakons, even those at the very top, have nerve in abundance. For all their faults, they *act*, they *respond*, they *adapt*. Most top Shapers do not. Alwan has my admiration for being a totally kick ass guy with a will of steel, and at least Taygen, for all his insane ideas, was willing to do SOMETHING other than sit whining in his ivory tower and cave in to a little pressure like Astoria.

Astoria betrayed her own soldiers at Fort Rockfall for crying out loud, and she betrayed them so that she could negotiate a surrender (oops, I meant 'peace') with the Rebels. How gutless is that?

The head councilor is incompetent, Rawal is the very definition of inaction, and the two councilors along the coast are just worthless.

And people support the Shaper regime, claiming that at least it brought peace and security? Are you kidding me? With the exception of Alwan, these clowns don't deserve to manage a MacDonald's, let alone an entire friggen Empire.

[Spddin Ignis]

Ghaldrin does not care about other drakons because they can just be re-shaped. Shapers on the other hand are people. The fact that ghaldrin cant stay away from the action is another quality that makes him arogant. And how is shema arrogant, you dont see enought in the games to make that claim. How has shaper rule not brought peace. There were no unbound killing innocent people destroying there towns. Forcing people into the rogue infested wilderness.The rebels are masters of destruction and thats all they are. They're not only attacking the shapers, but everyone who is not a rebel. In the years before G5 they made an effort to kill almost every loyalist. Look at the ashen isles that were completly taken over by the rebels, or the spawners that the rebels shape. As i said before the "hoarding" of shaper power kept people safe for a long time. Look at G1 in the areas where shapers supposedly began. Look at all the repercussions of uncontrolled shapeing. New deiseases and monsters. And you want that to spread throut the world?

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

Ghaldrin does not care about other drakons because they can just be re-shaped.

Speculation, and to be honest, I don't see the relevance. Either way, the drakons are self-conscious and have an appreciation of the very real risks, repercussions and advantages of taking the battle to the enemy. Whether you like it or not, it's implied throughout the series that drakons have courage in abundance, and Geneforge 5 makes it clear that they have far more than the Shaper Council.

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The fact that ghaldrin cant stay away from the action is another quality that makes him arogant.

It makes him an effective and courageous leader. The fact that the most powerful Shapers hide far from the conflict is precisely why they are losing the war. A chess player is careful with their queen, but that doesn't mean they keep it hidden behind the pawns for the entire game. Ghaldring is an immensely powerful Shaper, it is a waste to hide him away from the front. Having him reside near the conflict is one of those calculated risks I previously mentioned.

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And how is shema arrogant, you dont see enought in the games to make that claim.

He is old and weak, that's even stated in the in-game text. Geez.

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How has shaper rule not brought peace.

It hasn't, as is evidenced by the fact that there are rogues, rebels and unbound ravaging their lands. Worse yet, the Shapers as a government haven't been able to adequately respond to the threat, most of them have just remained in their ivory towers while their Outsider subjects do the majority of the fighting. Worse yet, one of the Council members is willing to commit treason, and she arguably does so in regards to the Shadow Road.

To put it bluntly, Shaper rule is highly bureaucratic, hierarchical, corrupt, decadent, inefficient and confused. The Shapers have made mistake after mistake, blunder after blunder, and despite their advantages in resources, numbers, land and power were put on the back foot by a motley bunch of underdogs.

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The rebels are masters of destruction and thats all they are. They're not only attacking the shapers, but everyone who is not a rebel.

Which rebels? The drakons? They cause destruction? Ye Gods, what of it? They are targeted for extermination so they fight back in an effective manner. Good for them. That's how wars should be fought. There's you enemy, now go destroy it.

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As i said before the "hoarding" of shaper power kept people safe for a long time.

It also kept Shapers on top of the hierarchy. Coincidence? You don't need an oligarchy and privileged class to regulate certain activities.

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Look at G1 in the areas where shapers supposedly began. Look at all the repercussions of uncontrolled shapeing. New deiseases and monsters. And you want that to spread throut the world?

You're completely missing the point. I'm not arguing that Shaping shouldn't be controlled. I'm arguing that the Shapers, in their current state, are unfit to manage those powers and rule Terrestia.

[Spddin Ignis]

and the drakons aren't any better. In fact they are much worse. Also, Ghaldrin is hiding in his fortress. If you played through the rebel ending like you said you did, then you would relize that. The shapers do not just send outsiders to do their work. The shapers have always sent their creations along with them.

 

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That's how wars should be fought. There's you enemy, now go destroy it

They're not just destroying their enemies,. they are killing innocet humans. If we went into war and killed innocents, we would be looked down upon, and yet you say that is how war should be fought.

 

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He is old and weak, that's even stated in the in-game text. Geez.

If he is so old and weak then why is a horde of drakons neccesarry to take him down. He is clearly one of the most powerful shapers. His age is what makes him strong and wise.

 

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Speculation, and to be honest, I don't see the relevance. Either way, the drakons are self-conscious and have an appreciation of the very real risks, repercussions and advantages of taking the battle to the enemy. Whether you like it or not, it's implied throughout the series that drakons have courage in abundance, and Geneforge 5 makes it clear that they have far more than the Shaper Council.

 

no, the drakons have arrogance in abundance. It is clear that they want nothing more to be the next shapers. Drakons treat intellegent creations no better then the shapers do, and in fact worse. So keep telling me how ghaldrin is a strong leader, when the rebel ending is proof that he is not.

 

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It hasn't, as is evidenced by the fact that there are rogues, rebels and unbound ravaging their lands. Worse yet, the Shapers as a government haven't been able to adequately respond to the threat, most of them have just remained in their ivory towers while their Outsider subjects do the majority of the fighting. Worse yet, one of the Council members is willing to commit treason, and she arguably does so in regards to the Shadow Road.

 

To put it bluntly, Shaper rule is highly bureaucratic, hierarchical, corrupt, decadent, inefficient and confused. The Shapers have made mistake after mistake, blunder after blunder, and despite their advantages in resources, numbers, land and power were put on the back foot by a motley bunch of underdogs.

 

I said it brought many years of peace. Rebels have been in there lands for a decade. The shapers brought centuries of peace. The rebels have brought a decade of war in the short time of their existence. When i say many, i mean a long time, and the shapers have obviously brought a long time of peace amd prosperity to terrestia, and the drakons continue to become more and more arrogant as said by the human and serivle rebels. The shapers have pushed the drakons back to the very gates of gazaki-uss, and yet you call them weak. The rebels are nothing but greedy shaper wanna be's. The drakons more then any of them, and yet you defend them. If you read the description for geneforge 4 and 5 it says that jealous humans rose up.Thats all they are, and thats all they ever will be, jealous.

[Student of Trinity]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Keep in mind that the Shaper Council is dominated by the three coastal representatives, whose provinces are enormously richer and more developed than the war-torn frontiers we see in the games.

And they are the only ones in the Council (apart from Taygen, or course) who agree to releasing the Purity Agent, precisely because they are so frightened of the war reaching their pristine lands.

Huh, I didn't expect this. I haven't played Taygen's faction. This is certainly important information for a lot of questions, because the overall verdict on the Shapers depends a lot on how their society works in its heartland. I have leaned for a long time to the theory that the Shapers are basically an incompetent magical Mafia, and it doesn't seem to help their case any, that the coastal provinces are willing to exterminate all creations.

[Acky]

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If he is so old and weak then why is a horde of drakons neccesarry to take him down. He is clearly one of the most powerful shapers. His age is what makes him strong and wise.

Actually, this is exactly why only 4 Drakons, a Lifecrafter and a single, skilled Ur-Drakon are sent to kill him *and* two other full Councilors. He hasn't fought in years, and it showed. If you put any of the central councilors there in the same quantity, you'd have a harder fight. He is wise, but wise as a peace-time govenor, not as General. Which is why he made mistakes during the war that are biting the Shapers in the romp right now.

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no, the drakons have arrogance in abundance.

So do the Shapers. We get several messages throughout the game(s) that its because of their arrogance that they've lossed nearly half their empire to the rebels. The Drakons, while arrogant, aren't arrogant enough to hide in their fortress's all the time. Ghaldring leaves to hold the Shapers in one of the passes. Akhari Blaze was being forced to stay in Northforge because work had to be done on the Unbound. The Shapers, on the other hand, did not go themselves. Granted, Alwan is the only one who has a very real excuse in that he can not actually participate in a battle, but Taygen, Rawal, Shema, Sharissa, and Nawaz were all fine. Astoria did go, of course, and should be credited with such.

The Last Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Huh, I didn't expect this. I haven't played Taygen's faction. This is certainly important information for a lot of questions, because the overall verdict on the Shapers depends a lot on how their society works in its heartland. I have leaned for a long time to the theory that the Shapers are basically an incompetent magical Mafia, and it doesn't seem to help their case any, that the coastal provinces are willing to exterminate all creations.

It's worse than that.

Click to reveal..

The councilors from the coast go whichever way the wind blows. If Alwan has influence, they side with him. If Astoria has influence, they side with her. If Taygen has influence, they side with him. And if *Litalia* has influence, they side with her! All she does is tell them that the war will never touch their coastal provinces, and they just throw in their lot with her.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

Granted, Alwan is the only one who has a very real excuse in that he can not actually participate in a battle

Let's not forget that Alwan led an assault on Northforge back in Geneforge 4. That man is hardcore.

[Acky]

Of course. General Alwan is the General MacArthur of Geneforge. He's got to be the coolist character in the series. But I'm speaking in regards to G5. Its not the General Alwan won't aid in the assualt, its that he physically can't. Can you see Alwan waddling towards Gazaki-Uss?

 

Hmm. Atcually, thats not a bad tactic. It might get the Drakons to make sulfurous chuckles to death.

 

The Last Archon

[Student of Trinity]

Actually I'd bet that rather than miss the end of his war, Alwan would have had himself wheeled into Gazaki-Uss on a big cart full of pipes, pylons, and wine. But Jeff didn't have the graphics budget for the Alwanmobile.

[Spddin Ignis]

i know that the shapers are arogant, but so are the drakons. His escuse for siding with the drakons was because the shapers were arrogant. The only rebels i respect are the serviles.