The Shaper Council and the Purity Agent[G5]

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

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Also if you played through all the geneforge games you would know that some creations are more complicated.

Which ones? Glaahks? Kyshakks? Because in the final battle against Ghaldring, three regular Shapers are just conjuring them up in minutes.

When's the last time you've seen someone shape a servile or servant mine with the wave of their hand? And these are two very useful creations.

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The shapers shape new creations a week later. The purity agent is a virus.It is not a one second event. The atomic bomb effected japan for many years to come after the bombing and the purity agent will have the same effect considering that it is a virus.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

He's saying that the virus will stay around for a while, continuing to kill newly Shaped creations.

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It's obvious that Jeff made an effort to demonstrate how insular and slow to act the Shaper Council is, and he succeeded to such a degree that it boggles the mind. Despite possessing an enormous amount of power, top quality Shapers hide behind fortress walls while outsider humans do the fighting and dying (just witness Perkalia Orchards. Not ONE Shaper or Creation is present to assist the outsider humans).

I really despise that sort of weakness, and it's also nauseating that the Shapers would deny creations and outsider humans the ability to defend themselves, and then hide behind those same disempowered creations and outsider humans when they meet any serious opposition. Contrast that behaviour to the Drakons, who are proactive and willing to take calculated risks.

No one says you have to like the Shapers, but please keep in mind that they have kept the people of the empire safe and secure for hundreds, probably thousands of years. They have shaped plants for places like the Dera Reaches, allowing for increased habitation. (Also note that all of the shaped vegetation would likely die as well, further decimating the food supply on the entire continent.)

[Øther]

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and the drakons aren't any better. In fact they are much worse. Also, Ghaldrin is hiding in his fortress. If you played through the rebel ending like you said you did, then you would relize that. The shapers do not just send outsiders to do their work. The shapers have always sent their creations along with them.

ANd how is he hiding? From there he is sending out orders and doing everything he can to help win the war. Of course he doesn't leave the place because what would you do if your leader, and practicaly the thing keeping the rebellion going, decides to walk out to the front lines of battle, where, if the shapers found out, they would immediatly send everything they have left to try to kill him while he isn't as protected.

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They're not just destroying their enemies,. they are killing innocet humans. If we went into war and killed innocents, we would be looked down upon, and yet you say that is how war should be fought.

To me, you seem very racist against creations. Oh, they kill a person! They are evil! Not all people are good, you know. In fact, in the geneforge games, many creations are better than most of the people in the game.

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If he is so old and weak then why is a horde of drakons neccesarry to take him down. He is clearly one of the most powerful shapers. His age is what makes him strong and wise.

You think that the drakons brought to kill the council were just for shema? There were three councilers there, and quite a few shapers.

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no, the drakons have arrogance in abundance. It is clear that they want nothing more to be the next shapers. Drakons treat intellegent creations no better then the shapers do, and in fact worse. So keep telling me how ghaldrin is a strong leader, when the rebel ending is proof that he is not.

Slightly true. Even though most drakons have shaped a large amount of sanity out of themselves, they are still the most effective and powerful weapon against the shapers. It isn't only the drakon's war, it is everyones who don't like the shapers and no longer want to be ruled by them. After the war is over, if nothing is done, then the Drakons will become the next shapers. Thats why what is done in the rebel ending is done, so there are still drakons, and the rebellion has one, and there are no new shapers.

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I said it brought many years of peace. Rebels have been in there lands for a decade. The shapers brought centuries of peace. The rebels have brought a decade of war in the short time of their existence. When i say many, i mean a long time, and the shapers have obviously brought a long time of peace amd prosperity to terrestia, and the drakons continue to become more and more arrogant as said by the human and serivle rebels. The shapers have pushed the drakons back to the very gates of gazaki-uss, and yet you call them weak. The rebels are nothing but greedy shaper wanna be's. The drakons more then any of them, and yet you defend them. If you read the description for geneforge 4 and 5 it says that jealous humans rose up.Thats all they are, and thats all they ever will be, jealous.

To the very gates? Really. The shapers (under Alwan's leadership) have barely been able to recapture the mouintain forts, and yet rouges still cover the storm plains. Gazuki-Uss is quite a distance away from the mountains, and the wastelands are filled to the brim with the rebel's patrols. It is hard to believe that there is a shaper camp near Gazuki-Uss. And for some reason, you seem to think that the rebels winning means everyone will be give the power to shape. Not at all true. It is just that more people will have the chance to learn how to shape, not just a select few.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master1

When's the last time you've seen someone shape a servile or servant mine with the wave of their hand? And these are two very useful creations.

We haven't. But it's implied by Litalia that even a freshly minted Shaper can make entire groups of serviles.

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He's saying that the virus will stay around for a while, continuing to kill newly Shaped creations.

It doesn't. It causes one wave of destruction, and that's it.

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No one says you have to like the Shapers, but please keep in mind that they have kept the people of the empire safe and secure for hundreds, probably thousands of years.

That was then, this is now. I'd argue that since the Barring of Sucia, the Shaper Council has been unable to rule efficiently and act decisively. They made blunder after blunder, and the situation continued to spiral out of control until they had open rebellion and Unbound scorching their lands. The way the Shaper Council of Geneforge 5 reacts to some pressure demonstrates that they are unfit to rule.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

Originally Posted By: Master1

When's the last time you've seen someone shape a servile or servant mine with the wave of their hand? And these are two very useful creations.

 

We haven't. But it's implied by Litalia that even a freshly minted Shaper can make entire groups of serviles.

I must have missed this. Can you site a line for me, because this goes against everything I have ever thought.

 

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He's saying that the virus will stay around for a while, continuing to kill newly Shaped creations.

 

It doesn't. It causes one wave of destruction, and that's it.

 

Right, because the flu never comes back. It is in the vary nature of viruses to mutate and stick around. Now, the Shaper world may be different, but there are still genes. Unless you can find a place in the games where the mode of action of viruses as well as their virulence is discussed, I think it is safe to say that they are similar in mode of action and such as real-world viruses are.

 

 

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I'd argue that since the Barring of Sucia, the Shaper Council has been unable to rule efficiently and act decisively. They made blunder after blunder, and the situation continued to spiral out of control until they had open rebellion and Unbound scorching their lands. The way the Shaper Council of Geneforge 5 reacts to some pressure demonstrates that they are unfit to rule.

 

Actually, the Shapers have only been messing things up since Sucia was rediscovered. It can be argued that the baring of Sucia was a mistake or was done improperly, but the method employed there as worked numerous other times by the Shapers and worked just fine.

 

Also, since when does 20 or even 50 years of trouble undo peace and prosperity for centuries? Looking at the math, it seems as if maybe 5% of the time has been bad. Seeing as how in 4/5 of the endings the war pretty much ends, I'd say the Shapers have a pretty good track record as far as safety is concerned.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

"I am not much older than you. I trained as a Shaper. I showed much promise. I was an apprentice, then a novice, then a student, then I was given the robes. And all I had to do to share in the power was to complete my first mission."

 

"So I was given a Watcher, and sent out. I was sent to a remote outpost, where the Shapers were weak and confused, and they had let things go wrong."

 

"As she speaks, Litalia watches you closely, making sure that she is not so wrapped up in her story that she lets you surprise her."

 

"What had gone wrong at the settlement?"

"A lack of discipline. The environment was harsh, and the serviles had become disobedient. And then rebellious."

 

"So I asked my Watcher what needed to be done, and he told me. And he told me I had to do it."

 

"What had to be done?"

"Why, what else? The serviles had to be killed. And I was the one who had to do it. That was what the Watcher said."

 

"So what did you do?";

"What else? I did what I had been trained to do. I obeyed. I slaughtered them. They fled and screamed and begged for mercy, and I burned them down. Much like I did at your school."

 

"Then I shaped new serviles, trusting, happy, mindless creatures, not knowing the life of miserable labor that awaited them, and I put them to work."

[Spddin Ignis]

she never said she did this in the course of one night, or even a week for that matter.ANd you are aware that the shapers barred sucia 200 years before geneforge 1, right? Which means that the current council members weren't even born.

[Øther]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

.ANd you are aware that the shapers barred sucia 200 years before geneforge 1, right? Which means that the current council members weren't even born.

So? How is that relevent?

[Spddin Ignis]

he was saying how the council became inefective after the barring of sucia. That leaves 200 more years of peace brought by the council.

[Øther]

Did he specifically say the current Council?

[Spddin Ignis]

im saying that it's 200 years of peace after sucia island. So what im saying is, that the council was obviosly effective for centuries more.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

"Then I shaped new serviles, trusting, happy, mindless creatures, not knowing the life of miserable labor that awaited them, and I put them to work."

For all we know, she and the watcher person she was with collectively sat down in a shaping hall and made a bunch in vats. This is how the unbound were made, and we don't see people running around shaping them, do we?

In the very beginning of the original game, I think it is when you inquire as to how the serviles have survived, they say that they can sexually reproduce because they are so hard to shape.

[Randomizer]

GF1 had a hall where newly made serviles came out of a vat. It was just a lesser use of resources to have them reproduce sexually. Either way the new serviles need to be trained.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Master1

Actually, the Shapers have only been messing things up since Sucia was rediscovered. It can be argued that the baring of Sucia was a mistake or was done improperly, but the method employed there as worked numerous other times by the Shapers and worked just fine.

Worked just fine except for all the innocents who had to be killed to cover up their previous mistakes, you mean.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

im saying that it's 200 years of peace after sucia island. So what im saying is, that the council was obviosly effective for centuries more.

Or lucky. Sucia Island was a mishandled ticking timebomb, and further evidence from the series suggests that the Shapers are not thorough in cleaning up experiments gone wrong, they just shut down the complex and erase it from their collective memories. The fact that this hasn't led to disaster in less than 200 years is nothing short of a miracle.

Leaving two intelligent species (who you have oppressed, no less) unmonitored on an island with forbidden and dangerous research is one of the most idiotic things the Shaper Council could do, and it came back to bite them. Had they been thorough and erased all knowledge on Sucia, and transported the serviles and drayks off the island, they would have nipped any potential uprisings in the bud. The Shapers only managed to extricate themselves from disaster because of a stroke of luck: Your PC, an untrained initiate, happened to land on Sucia just as the various factions were plotting Rebellion. And the Council further lucked out because your PC remained loyal and kicked ass.

But the mishandling of potential and presently occurring disasters did not end there. When the Shaper Council learnt of the goings on on Sucia, they sent Zakary and Barzhal, unmonitored, to clean up the island. Naturally Zakary and Barzhal saw the power the forbidden research could grant them, and absconded with it.

And then to the events of Geneforge 2. Drypeak colony is failing, and despite the administrators coincidentally happening to be the same two Shapers who 'purged' Sucia Island, the Shapers are slow to send even one agent (and her apprentice, you). And when they do learn of what is occurring, they are *still* slow to act, and don't complete purge Drypeak Mountains. Oh, and did I mention that things only worked out their way because the PC happened to bail them out once again?

On to Geneforge 3. The Shapers respond inadequately to a force that is inferior in numbers, resources and land. Instead of keeping lines of communication open and bringing all of their forces to bear, they panic and quarantine important battle grounds such as the Ashen Isles. Had they supported Rahul, they could have prevented Akhari from constructing the Geneforge and empowering the drakons.

Geneforge 4. The Shapers learn of the Unbound project, yet only Alwan and his small band of followers are willing to act decisively by raiding Northforge. They are hung out to dry by the Shaper Council, being denied the resources and firepower necessary to destroy the Unbound.

Geneforge 5. The Shaper Council is in shambles. Astoria is willing to sell out her own people to negotiate a surrender with the Rebels. The three councilors of the coastal provinces are weak willed and will side with whichever councilor has the most influence. Taygen is nuts. Rawal is myopic at best, failing to realise that proactively fighting to preserve the Shaper Empire is in his own best interests. All of the Councilors work at undermining each other instead of uniting to fight the enemy, letting the outsider humans take the brunt of the Rebellion's wrath.

The Shaper Council (with the exception of Alwan) are a bunch of clowns who are unfit to rule.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master1

For all we know, she and the watcher person she was with collectively sat down in a shaping hall and made a bunch in vats.

Litalia said that *she* Shaped the new serviles, and there was no mention of vats, so that implies that she Shaped those serviles personally.

But the presence of vats simply further supports what I've been saying. If serviles can be mass produced in vats, then it's not such a big deal to spawn more.

[Acky]

Vats aren't cheap. Neither is supplying them.

 

The Last Archon

[A less presumptuous name.]

And as for the PC playing a key role in the cleanup and the cleanup never going as planned: That's called setup. If the council cleaned everything up perfectly, there would be no game to play...

[Acky]

Ssssh! Don't break the fourth wall during a debate. That ruins the fun

 

The Last Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

Vats aren't cheap. Neither is supplying them.

The Last Archon

But a village in a failing colony could afford them?

[Øther]

But the shapers are obviously rich, so that isn't really a problem.

[Acky]

They wern't used continiously, or in large quantities. How many creations do you see in Drypeak that aren't rogues? Remember that there was no research being done, so they virtually became useless. Sure, they had a gun, but no ammo for it.

 

The Last Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

By the way, does anyone see something perverse about Taygen being expelled from the Shapers for saving the Shaper Empire, but Astoria becoming head councilor for selling the Shapers out and essentially committing treason?

 

Apply what Astoria was doing to present day life. Let's say a particular General in Afghanistan felt that the U.S.A's imperialism was unacceptable. As a result, they allow the insurgents to cross through a series of tunnels under the sector they administrating. They hinder the war efforts of another general by orchestrating an attack against a military base which leads to the deaths of many soldiers. They go behind the backs of the other Generals to negotiate terms for a surrender with the insurgents, where the conditions involve granting a significant portion of the U.S.A to the insurgents. Finally, they allow the insurgents to operate freely in their territory, turning a blind eye to any loyal soldiers who are killed as a result.

 

Even in a fairly progressive democratic society, what would happen to this turncoat General? I'm guessing a bullet in the brain.

[Acky]

The Shapers are more like a political party than a military branch, so the same princibul doesn't apply.

 

btw, could you please use the edit button a bit more?

 

The Last Archon

[Øther]

In the Astoria ending that I played, Rawal became the head counciler.

 

 

EDIT: Once I think about it, Rawal became the head counciler in every shaper ending. (I know not in Ghaldring's, and I can't remember Litalia's.)

[Spddin Ignis]

Zachary and brahzal weren't un-monitered. There were many other shapers there. This is provided in the scripts of G2.

[Spddin Ignis]

why do you think someone tried to have astoria assasinated.

[Acky]

They were all loyal to Barzhal and Zakary. Once they showed their rebellious intentions, the loyal ones were either killed or became trapped deep behind rebel lands. Or they were just unwilling to go.

 

The Last Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

why do you think someone tried to have astoria assasinated.

It's a pity Makar was incompetent.

[Øther]

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

why do you think someone tried to have astoria assasinated.

I think it is kinda obvious why.

[Spddin Ignis]

i agree with you on that.

[Acky]

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It's a pity Makar was incompetent.

Pity? Aren't you a rebel? It was a good thing Astoria was ruling teh Mera-Tev. If she was killed, she might have been replaced by a more loyal Shaper, or worse, Rawal might have stepped in and assumed control.

The Last Archon

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin

why do you think someone tried to have astoria assasinated.

I think it is kinda obvious why.

His question was rhetorical!

[Øther]

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan

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It's a pity Makar was incompetent.

Pity? Aren't you a rebel? It was a good thing Astoria was ruling teh Mera-Tev. If she was killed, she might have been replaced by a more loyal Shaper, or worse, Rawal might have stepped in and assumed control.

The Last Archon

I think that Rawal would have been better, since he probably wouldn't have done much, and he wouldn't know about the shadow road.

[Acky]

He already knew about the Shadow Road. Just not where it was. Those serviles towns would have been destroyed too. Rawal's all about political power. How good would it have made him look if he found the infamous Shadow Road and closed it off?

 

The Last Archon

[Øther]

I meant that he know about it, but not where it was. The towns probably would be destroyed, but it is unlikely he would find the entrances. Thus the shadow road will still live on, just more secretively.

[Acky]

How long would that last? He's got plenty of agents running around doing his biding. If Rawal would destroy the town, he would tell his soldiers to destroy everything they find, which includes the buildings the Shadow Roads was hiding in/behind.

 

The Last Archon

[Dikiyoba]

There is a problem with relying on Litalia's backstory as evidence. Her backstory completely changes in G5 and there's no mention of her making serviles in it. In fact, it contradicts the new story.

 

Dikiyoba happens to hate the new backstory, but seeing as the old backstory is already contradicting even older evidence...

[Acky]

You hate it? I kinda like the new one. It has a nice symetry to the games.

 

The Last Archon