Whose ideology is most consistent with your own?[G5]

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Vote and discuss!

[Cthulhu]

I find the Trakovites the most like my own.

[Øther]

I voted Ghaldring, since I would want my side to win, and completely win. Usually, it is unlikely that two opposing sides would hold any kind of peace for too long, before tensions began to rebuild and the fighting restarted. If I thought that peace would be easier, then I definitely would go for Astoria, but I do think that the best way to win is to control your enemy, not to make a shaky peace with. There are exceptions for that, but generally making a peace that says that some formerly in war countries will suddenly stop fighting, and act almost as if there wasn't a war, well, I think that that would be difficult. If an opposing country offered up some kind of surrender, however, then I would probably except that, to, instead of trying to destroy them.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: XxAzerothxX

I find the Trakovites the most like my own.

The funny thing is that the Trakovites are indisputably right in their claims, at least from what we observe from the Geneforge series. Shaping does apparently cause far more harm than good. All the good Shaping can do is undone by one nutcase. It also seems that Shaping has a way of corrupting those who use it, with even those who don't engage in self-shaping seem to be arrogant and have little regard for life. I guess if you're going to Shape life to fight and die at your whim, you need to desensitise yourself to the suffering of living beings.

But personally, I prioritize the freedom of the individual to do what they wish, as long as they don't cause harm to others. Outlawing an art because it has the potential to cause great harm seems like an infringement on civil liberties, which doesn't sit right with me. For example, you could impose a 9pm curfew and lower crime significantly, reducing loss of life and property. But would you want to?

[Untamed Banana Slug]

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior

I voted Ghaldring, since I would want my side to win, and completely win. Usually, it is unlikely that two opposing sides would hold any kind of peace for too long, before tensions began to rebuild and the fighting restarted. If I thought that peace would be easier, then I definitely would go for Astoria, but I do think that the best way to win is to control your enemy, not to make a shaky peace with. There are exceptions for that, but generally making a peace that says that some formerly in war countries will suddenly stop fighting, and act almost as if there wasn't a war, well, I think that that would be difficult. If an opposing country offered up some kind of surrender, however, then I would probably except that, to, instead of trying to destroy them.

Yes, you have just stated rather eloquently why I lean towards the Taker/Ghaldring factions. Allowing the Shapers to continue existing as a dominant force is a shaky prospect. Individuals like Astoria might support creation emancipation, but it is suggested that she is opposed by the majority of the Shaper sect. What is to guarantee that another Taygen or Alwan won't garner support in the next decade or two?

Click to reveal..

In hindsight, the Astorian ending suggests that the peace holds, but during the game you don't know this.

So the most reasonable course of action is to beat your enemy into submission. There is your enemy, now go and destroy it, obliterate it, so that it will never again threaten you. Which is consistent with the philosophy of most drakons and some serviles.

Click to reveal..

That's why I just love playing through the Ghaldring ending, as you get to smash the enemy once and for all. Confronting the four key Shapers in their lairs and putting them to the sword (or in my case, a War Trall stone). Then storming the Shaper Citadel with Akhari Blaze like avenging angels and smashing the Shaper Council. Followed by the Drakon army killing their way through Shaper lands (hell, they are even described as a juggernaut in the ending text!) And finally, when the Drakons become to big for the boots, the human-servile alliance kill them too! Just beautiful.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I prefer a peaceful resolution when it comes to conflict. The Rebellion was necessary only because dialogue was impossible. It became obsolete when the Shapers finally came to the negotiation table. When it comes to freedom and slavery, terrorism may very well be necessary, so long as the perpetrators are willing to cease their tactics one the appropriate attention is drawn to the issue. This is why I think Astoria had the best solution for the war. Diplomacy is always preferable to continued destruction.

 

The destruction, however, was greatly exacerbated by the presence of shaping, which is a pity. I think shaping is a valuable tool for creation, but shaping used for destruction should be phased out and made illegal. Those are my Trakovite sympathies, I suppose. I did not approve of Litalia's methods, though. Again I would prefer a dialogue, and I don't believe that her cause was worthy of terrorism. After all, the Rebels spread destruction for the sake of freedom, the Trakovites spread it to end destructive shaping, which is self-defeating.

[Untamed Banana Slug]

So when the government uses guns to dispossess its citizens of firearms, is that self-defeating?

[Sleeping Dragon]

Does it shoot them to stop them from wielding them? If so, then yes.

[Alorael at Large]

The problem with shaping is that it's too widespread, too well-documented, and too powerful. Trakovites face the same problem as nuclear disarmament: it's all well and good to give up creations, but the Monarchs of the world will be the last to give up their power, which means phasing out shaping must lead to a crisis of nutcases.

 

Astoria's peace plank would be worrisome if she weren't a cynical believer in realpolitik. She knows exactly how to create and enforce peace. It isn't pretty, but it's better than a continuing war or the wholesale slaughter required by the two opposing sides.

 

—Alorael, who agrees with the need for peace above all. Rights for creations are necessary, but the rebels seem to put that as a second priority after toppling the Shapers, who actually aren't nearly as bad as an institution as the rebels seem to think.

[Student of Trinity]

That's easy for us to say, as we ignore all the ineffectual Serviles who wander the halls and get one-shotted by our War Tralls if they get in our way, while we try to go from level 50 to 51.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Untamed Banana Slug

But personally, I prioritize the freedom of the individual to do what they wish, as long as they don't cause harm to others. Outlawing an art because it has the potential to cause great harm seems like an infringement on civil liberties, which doesn't sit right with me. For example, you could impose a 9pm curfew and lower crime significantly, reducing loss of life and property. But would you want to?

It seems somewhat quixotic to try to impose the standards of a Western democracy on the Shaper empire in the first place. The Shapers certainly don't have any concept of civil liberties.

[Feo Takahari]

I'm another who likes the Trakovite ideology but doesn't think it's realistic. Though come to think of it, we're talking about a game where glowing goo alters your DNA and dogs spit acid--is realism relevant?

 

If we're going for realism, I might as well add that I don't see how Shapers and creations could live in harmony if more creations were being made for purposes of labor. For that matter, given that the serviles weren't supposed to be intelligent and were supposed to enjoy their work, it would be risky to try making more "dumb" creations in case something else went wrong.

[Alorael at Large]

Why make intelligent creations at all? Ornks, modified crops, living tools, and machinery are all shaper-made and critically important. Slave labor is nice, but mechanization and a green revolution would be nicer.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think "civil liberties" make a compelling inherent good unless you're willing to back anarchy. You have to draw a line between liberty and lunacy somewhere, and people are going to argue no matter where you put it.

[Archaeolagent]

Based on the history given in G1, I would assume that the semi-intelligent creations came first (the results of the few survivors of tens of thousands of essence-bombardments), and more precisely shaped creations like living tools, machinery, batons, and modified crops came later.

[A less presumptuous name.]

I can just see this becoming a shaper v. rebel thread, if it isn't already.

 

Anyway, in choosing an in-game ideology, I currently would go with Alwan. I've always had a thing for the Shapers. However, I haven't done an Astoria run through yet, so that may change.

 

Now for my personal ideology: I believe that intelligent, peaceful creations should be allowed to exist, likely even coexist in the future, with people. The biggest thing that the Shaper world needs is a new government. Something along the lines of a central bicameral legislature. The Shaper council remains and governs all shaping, essence, and maybe regular magic things, while a democratic congress of sorts keeps the show running. They come together for the big things like war, trade, exploration, and so on and so forth.

 

(Yes, I do spend my free time living in my custom geneforge world where I am the most powerful Shaper and I personally help to reform the government about 100-150 years after the war)

[Øther]

I can't help but see that out of the 24 people that have voted so far, none have chose Taygen. Good job people.

[Nioca]

Astoria. Aside from what's already been said, there's the added benefit of two independent governments instead of a single government. If something goes wrong with one, as it inevitably will, it doesn't bring the entire world down with it. And even if war does break out again, the worst that can happen is that one side wipes the other out, which is pretty much what all the other factions do anyway. Furthermore, it's culturally productive, as ideas from one will seep into the other, and vice versa.

[Spddin Ignis]

I side with Alwan because shapers have brought peace to terrestia, even if the creations were opressed they were relativly safe. Taygen is a nutcase and the war probably made him worse. I side with the shapers just not "kill all creations and rebels status"