For A5 - Keep it fresh for tanks!

[Shadestorm]

I loved Avernum 4, and finished the game with a singleton Slith Polearm tank.

 

I know a lot of people play Avernum to hack and slash at stuff, and typically do what I did and use all-melee party. A lot of people play Avernum for tactics and strategy, and they typically use magic and ranged characters, because these character offer the most amount of combat choices during a fight. I'd love it if, in Avernum 5, there was offered gameplay that catered to gamers who, like myself, like to get up close and personal with their enemies, but still wish to have a variety of combat choices.

 

So Jeff, how hard would it be, in Avernum 5, to allow characters of a certain melee skill level to sacrifice a couple extra AP points to perform a couple different melee abilities? This could be very simple. An extra couple AP points to prepare your character for a Parry. A 3 AP point melee feint, that makes your next attack deal more damage. Or an 8 AP attack could give a chance of knocking an enemy back a square. An 8 AP area of effect melee attack... There are many ways you could do this.

 

It might take some experimenting, but providing an option for the increased decision-making of a melee character would be something I, as a gamer, would value greatly.

 

Thanks for reading,

Shadestorm

[Xaiya]

You are talking about comepletly changing how you fight in Avernum.

Most likely, not going to happen.

Edit -post ideas about A5 in the A5, early, early notes thread.

[Shadestorm]

Really? I was just thinking to make the melee combat more like the magic combat: More decisions, more strategy. Perhaps you're right. And thanks for pointing me to the other thread. That "A5 and the Magic System" topic made me think this was okay.

 

Feel free to delete if this is off-limits .

[Randomizer]

If Jeff takes some elements from the revised AP system in Geneforge 4, then you will see melee fighting be more useful. Avernum 4 eliminated the player wait command in combat that allowed you to let the monster close so you could melee at the risk of damage. With the new system as long as you have 1 AP you can still attack. This eliminates the I moved too far and don't have 5 AP to attack with anymore.

[Shadestorm]

Well, sure, I love the GF4 AP system. However, I don't think the melee system needs to be any more useful, just a more varied experience. Something to use your AP on, other than items.

 

What if attacking an enemy while it's facing another direction caused your damage to increase? That might be a worthy outlet of melee fighters extra AP points: try to maneuver around the surroundings into a favorable attack angle both offensively or defensively.

 

Say you have a singleton melee character. You've closed the gap with a high HP enemy. Your game decisions are limited only to continue attacking the enemy, and continue to use potions to sustain the attack, or run away. On the contrary, magic user characters have a range of spells they can choose to use in different circumstances. Ranged characters attempt to keep in a line of sight with their enemies while at the same time avoiding their immediate vicinity. But the melee character experience is clicking the enemy until it's dead.

 

But you know I'm not speaking for all situations in the game, just for the solo melee character gamer... What do I know anyway.

[Dikiyoba]

Don't worry, Shadestorm. This is a perfectly acceptable thread. In fact, I remember a similar discussion before.

 

Really, Dikiyoba can only think of adding less damage/greater defense and greater damage/less defense options to the normal attack. The first one would be useful when fighting a horde of weaker opponents that you can easily defeat but that can hit you as well. The second would be useful against enemies that you can almost kill in one hit but not quite.

[Niemand]

Quote:

With the new system as long as you have 1 AP you can still attack.

I've been hearing vague things like this about the GF4 combat system, and that this will then be applied to A5. From snippets like this, it sounds like the combat system from A1-BoA. Is that in fact the case? If not, what are the differences?

[Randomizer]

The older combat system had 4 AP (5 occasionally with fast on feet trait) and more when hasted. You could move and still cast a spell/attack with 1 AP. To attack you needed 4 AP and spells were 5 AP so you usually needed hasted mode to cast 2 spells but with fast on feet you could sometimes get 2 attacks.

 

A4 switched to 8 AP and made a minimum AP needed to attack/spell. This resulted in numerous complaints about moving too far and loosing a turn. Also you needed to use items first before attacking since the attack would use up the turn. Hasted was a little better for not losing the turn.

[Niemand]

Sorry, I didn't make my question clear, I guess. I'm familiar with how the A4 Ap system differs from the other Avernums, I was wondering how the GF4 system was different.

[Lilith]

Under the G4 system, your turn still ends immediately if you attack or cast a spell with less than 10 AP, but unlike the previous Geneforge games (and A4) you don't need at least 5 AP to attack. (You still need at least 3 AP to use an item in combat.)

[Alorael at Large]

Changing melee attacks would require a whole lot of balance work unless they were very simple changes, and the AI would need more work if they either needed to use these new attacks or respond reasonaby to their existence.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think it's impossible. It's just unlikely until Jeff starts working on a very new engine. Maybe Nethergate 2.0? The engine still hasn't been specified.

[Shadestorm]

Well, I definitely wouldn't want anything that would change the gameplay drastically from what it is. So maybe tankers are destined to have the same 'potion, click, click, potion' gameplay. I swear though, if I had at least one other thing to think about during combat than whether or not I had enough potions to sustain my slashing, I'd be ecstatic

 

I also always wondered why the decision to end your turn when you attacked, regardless of the AP you had left. I mean, I don't know why you'd attack first and then use your items, but at least you would never accidently attack when you had an extra couple AP to use up.

 

Off topic: How many accounts does Alorael have, anyway?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Shadestorm:

 

Quote:

Off topic: How many accounts does Alorael have, anyway?

Just one, but he changes his name every day.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Shadestorm:
Off topic: How many accounts does Alorael have, anyway?

Only one that we know of (well, he has a secondary account, but never uses it). You'll notice that his member number doesn't change; only his name does.

[Sudanna]

Add another bar to health and spell energy. Call it "Energy". Make it yellow. It will dictate how often you can use the aforementioned abilities. You will still need a certain amount of APs to execute an ability. A basic melee attack uses up exactly the amount that recharges each turn. Strength and endurance increase the size of the bar. If you have a melee weapon, the Melee Weapons skill will decrease the amount of energy the special attacks, not the basic one, use up. Same for pole weapons. Maybe even throw in a few special arrows if you feel like it.

 

Add "Combat Modes". Offensive, Defensive, and Normal. In Offensive, you will sacrifice a certain percentage of your defense and use it for damage. Vice-versa for Defensive. Maybe throw in a few in-between modes.

 

Jeff will likely never read this post, but it doesn't hurt to try.

[Alorael at Large]

Quote:

Originally written by Cryptozoology:

Quote:

Originally written by Shadestorm:
Off topic: How many accounts does Alorael have, anyway?

Only one that we know of (well, he has a secondary account, but never uses it). You'll notice that his member number doesn't change; only his name does.

This secondary account is news to me.

—Alorael, who does not admit to being Aran, being created by Aran, or having created Aran. Or SMoE, for that matter. He'll just continue dropping hints, thank you very much.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Viz.:
This secondary account is news to me.

Didn't you have a Skribbane Addict account at one point? I could have sworn that was a different account and not just a name change.

[Alorael at Large]

I changed my PDN to Skribbane Addict for a few hours years before my daily name changes. It made people upset, and those people included me, so I changed it back promptly.

 

—Alorael, who would look up accounts named Skribbane Addict if the Endeavor were available. It is not, and Google reveals nothing interesting on the subject.

[Dikiyoba]

There is a SKRIBANE ADDICT , which Dikiyoba doesn't think looks but like Alorael, but his deviousness knows no bounds, so who knows?

[Sudanna]

Back to topic! It's a reasonably good one, so some on! Ideas!

[Shadestorm]

Oh, my bad. I didn't know it was possible to just change your name on the fly.

 

Anyways. Dr. Strange, you think that it would be feasible to introduce a completely new ability tree with it's own resource bar to manage? I mean, yeah, that'd be awesome, but that would be a major addition to combat, something that I don't think could be completely balanced the first time it's introduced to the game.

 

Of course, Jeff could see that it worked well enough in WoW. I just hope it wouldn't go the way of having a "100 Energy point 2x attack" or a "200 Energy point 4x attack" like WoW does. It needs to add to the strategy of melee combat, not just the effeciency of it.

 

I'd enjoy combat amplifiers depending on elevation and angle of attack. For example, getting a bonus for attacking from up higher, or attacking when an enemy's back is turned. That way, you could use those extra 3 AP points to maneuver into an advantageous position before attacking.

[Sudanna]

Yes, Tactics Online has different armor levels for each side. It would be a very good idea, and Dexterity could increase the armor you have when attacked from behind. And you could have increased hit chances. It would also provide a nice way of keeping the AP special attacks balanced. I mean, if The Doctor uses his 8 AP doom-attack, he might do better damage, but this enemy has excellent Parrying, so he'll step around back.

 

There shouldn't be an ability tree, so to speak. It seems too arbitrary and not very original. The Doctor would prefer if the skills had to be bought from trainers, like spells. They wouldn't be nearly as numerous, of course, maybe only six to ten, most of them with a status effect and little to no damage.