mikeprichard

I'm definitely confusing my Avernums these days - good to know bows/thrown contribute fully to disciplines now (as they should!). I also noticed Lethal Blow is now (apparently?) no longer applied to magic damage, so I removed those unnecessary Lethal Blow +2s from my three magic users.

As for traits, hadn't thought about the XP traits - they generally weren't too great an investment in older games. So which of my current traits (I've edited my original post) would you suggest switching out for Luck x2 and XP x2?

And looky, this thread done got stickied.

Slarty - great feedback; I was unsure about some of those traits.

1) I'll dump Riposte Mastery x2 in favor of the extra Endurance x2 traits to get to max Endurance - otherwise, I can't think of anything more important for the fighter's traits.

2)&3) I see your point on the Healing Focus/Swordmage x4 seeming somewhat unnecessary, but again, I don't see much urgent need for trait points elsewhere (unless maybe in Endurance?).

4) I was trying to get 15 in weapons for all characters to get Adrenaline Rush without having to rely on equipment bonuses - so that's the reasoning behind the 10 in melee for all. But I guess if money is as plentiful as you say, maybe I can just train everyone in thrown weapons +2 as well to make up for dropping melee to 8+2 from 10+2 and still get that "natural" AR access (assuming in A2:CS, each point in bows and thrown counts as a full battle discipline point, and not only a half point as in earlier games)?

Thanks, Bonam - that's a useful reference. I'll do some testing when I get to the point of access for the FR trait. And I forgot about the tinker's gloves; right you are, Slarty.

So I think I've pretty much settled on my tank/priest x1.5/mage x2 party - updating my prior post. Thanks for the advice folks.

Bonam - a completionist will also want 8 TU on one character for the level 3 Icy Rain book - so your Priest 2 would need to take Nimble Fingers x2 (EDIT: or tinker's gloves + Nimble Fingers x1 - thanks Slarty) for that. Or not, if you don't care about the book.

Slarty - great, thanks. I'll mess around with the trait, though I frankly can't think of any other urgent place to put my excess crazy 24 trait points within my above plan.

In general on this topic, I personally need to have at least one DW tank in my party - it might not be "optimal" (especially on Torment) in terms of the ridiculous power of magic damage, but having one dedicated double ginsu knife is just too damn fun.

OK, I'm becoming more convinced to switch one of my DW tanks over to a mage(16)/priest(8) combo. Last thing - how useful do you find First Aid and/or the Fast Recovery trait in the mid/late-game? You'll see I'm considering the 8 trained points of First Aid, plus one FR trait for each player, but curious how that would eventually play out in terms of post-battle SP recovery.

Yeah, but like I say, I'm still waiting for version 1.0.0.0.0.1... Thanks for answering the lazy question, all the same.

So back to my original meta-question - do you/others find it at all tedious to play mostly/only mage characters when it comes to having slightly more micro-management in terms of party placement and SP management (compared to more dedicated tanks that can just walk up and kill single targets)? Or maybe I'm making too much of the issue. Like I say, I've always done two tanks/one priest/one mage, but I'm thinking of mixing in more magic this time around.

The hit chance cap applies to spells, too.

Hmm, interesting. Does this apply to all targets for AoE spells, or only on a target-by-target basis? E.g. if you target 3 enemies with a Cone of Cold, would the 90% to-hit be tested for each enemy individually (resulting in hitting 2 and missing 1, for example), or would you either hit all 3 or miss all 3?

Bonam - just note that the max priest/mage skill necessary in A2:CS (unlike in A:EFTP) is now 16, not 17 - so you might save a couple skill points there. Otherwise, my above priest/mage builds sound pretty close to what you're suggesting for your whole party.

Just from reading the forums (I'm holding off on starting a "real" playthrough until version 1.0.1 comes out to fix the remaining reported glitches, missing level 3 spellbooks, etc.), I'm slightly disappointed that Jeff seems to have taken another step in the wrong direction in terms of melee/pole/ranged vs. magic damage balance. He does seem to have made poles and (maybe?) bows slightly more viable, but - although dual-wielding is still probably the best non-magic choice for damage - the new 90% (vs. the previous 95%) to-hit chance cap (yuck) coupled with the increase in initial dual-wielding penalties seems a strange choice when faced with the fact that magic remains just as powerful - and maybe even more powerful, with the new Capture Soul/Simulacrum spells, for example.

That said, I've always run parties in A4-A6/A:EFTP of two dedicated melee tanks (dual-wielding in A:EFTP), one dedicated priest, and one dedicated mage on Normal difficulty. I know the crazy Torment min-maxers often prefer an optimal party with only one tank and more priests/mages, but I generally like to avoid the micro-(ok, milli-)management of more magic users (e.g. positioning, SP management, etc.). But the continued nerfing of non-magic damage now has me considering changing up my original planned party build by throwing a lot more mage and priest spells into the mix (see below for new build). I also precisely planned the distribution of utility skills below: 12 total Cave Lore skill points counting the quest point on the first character - I do know you only "really" need 10 total to get all caches due to the Forager's Boots and First Expedition Ring, but whatever; 18 total effective Arcane Lore skill points through 4 Sage Lore, 2 Arcane Lore, and 4 Vahnatai Lore, allowing access to almost all spellbooks - except Spray Acid, Blink, Cloak of Blades, and Ward of Steel, as those require "pure" Arcane Lore, and except the Resistance teaching crystal, as I don't think the +1 Resistance from the crystal is really that amazing and I'd rather spend the Arcane Lore points elsewhere; 15 total Tool Use skill points including 7 (8 with the Tinker's Gloves) concentrated on one character for the Icy Rain level 3 book. Thoughts?

EDIT (NEW PARTY BUILD):

Human Fighter/Priest:

8+2 Melee

+2 Poles

+2 Bows

+2 Thrown

10+2 Hardiness

10+2 Parry

8+2 Blademaster

+2 Quick Action

+2 Lethal Blow

8 Priest Spells

7+3 Spellcraft

10 Resistance

2 Arcane Lore

+2 Cave Lore

+2 First Aid

+2 Luck

Strength x5, Endurance x5, Recovery, Mighty Blows x3, Parry Mastery x2, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers x2, Fast Recovery, Sage Lore, Negotiator

Human Priest/Mage:

8+2 Melee

+2 Poles

+2 Bows

+2 Thrown

10+2 Hardiness

+2 Parry

14 Priest Spells

7 Mage Spells

7+3 Spellcraft

10 Resistance

7 Tool Use

+2 Cave Lore

+2 First Aid

+2 Luck

Intelligence x5, Endurance x5, Recovery, Swordmage x4, Elemental Focus x1, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers x2, Fast Recovery, Sage Lore, Negotiator

Human Mage/Priest 1&2:

8+2 Melee

+2 Poles

+2 Bows

+2 Thrown

10+2 Hardiness

+2 Parry

16 Mage Spells

8 Priest Spells

7+3 Spellcraft

10 Resistance

2+2 Cave Lore

2+2 First Aid

+2 Luck

Intelligence x5, Endurance x5, Recovery, Swordmage x4, Elemental Focus x1, Health Traits x3, Nimble Fingers x2, Fast Recovery, Sage Lore, Negotiator

Thanks, Lilith - I'd think so too, since NF counts as regular TU points for everything else as far as I know (at least, it did in A:EFTP). And with this, I've now completed my OCD party build planning - bring on the game!

Also, if you care about having level 3 Icy Rain, make sure to put at least 8 points of that Tool Use on a single character, because it's behind a hidden switch in a solo area with a Tool Use requirement.

Is that 8-point requirement met by Nimble Fingers (e.g. 6 "regular" TU points + 2 Nimble Fingers)?

Third, are two boxes of text during the intro: first this, and second this. The order in which the paragraphs appears seems...strange. It would much more naturally if it were paragraph 1, paragraph 3, paragraph 2, paragraph 4. I could be totally wrong about this, but reading the intro this section just jumped out at me as feeling awkward.

Posting late on this, but I immediately noticed this as well, and agree it should be fixed.

Thanks, Hexcel - I was confusing the re-re-makes with the re-makes.

Woah, 24 for human traits? Is that a change from A:EFTP, and would you mind explaining how those new trait points work out level-wise?

And I forgot about the extra skills/stats every 5 levels after 30, thanks.

EDIT: OK, I see humans now get a bonus trait every 4 levels. IIRC, A:EFTP the older Avernums instead gave them no XP penalty but no special advantages, while giving nephils/sliths XP penalties to balance those races' special advantages. I think I like the new race system better - each race has advantages, but no "penalties."

Sort of topic-related: just wanted to confirm that, as in A:EFTP, you can get a maximum of 63 skill points (5 at level 1 + (2x29) through level 30) and 16 traits (not sure how those distribute?) at max level for human characters. If not, what are the new numbers for A2:CS? Thanks!

When Jeff recently mentioned in his newsletter that the upcoming A2 remake would be sold on GOG, I emailed him to ask whether the A1 remake would finally be offered there as well, and he indicated talks were in the works. So I'm not surprised (but very pleased) that it's finally happened. Avernum and Geneforge were exactly the kinds of games GOG was made for, IMO; nice to see they've all finally made it. Now if he could just get them to carry Nethergate...

Mark - welcome; I'm glad you found this useful. And Jerakeen, thanks for linking the topic in the header - I'm actually thinking of another playthrough of A3 myself, so this is a good refresher. Cheers -

I actually like that Jeff brought this style back from the old Exiles/Avernums - the world in A4-6 seemed much, much smaller when everything was considered "indoors" (or "outdoors," depending on how you look at it).

True Jerakeen, but that's kind of moot, as they still sell remakes (three, not six - but eh). Of course someone could further nitpick and say A1-6 are being sold as a bundle that includes 3 new games (4-6) and 3 remakes (1-3), so GOG didn't have a choice, but I remain thoroughly unconvinced of the logic behind refusing to sell A:EFTP. As for not carrying Nethergate, that simply doesn't make any sense at all, at least from this perspective - it's not even a remake.

Hopefully one of these days (years?), they'll come to their senses.

It's not surprising the Witcher series is on there at least... the Witcher devs run the GOG site.

"Though the real irony here is that Avernum 1-6 are also remakes."

Exactly.

Good point, Rya.Reisender, but with D:OS, The Witcher 3 (of course...), and other games that are definitely not "old" available on GOG, I still question their reasoning. Also, others have already been requesting A:EFTP, Nethergate, and Nethergate:Resurrection on their forums. Anyone who wants to see them on GOG should at least put in a vote:

http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/avernum_escape_from_the_pit

http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/avernum_escape_from_the_pit_2

http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/avernumescape_from_the_pit_and_episodes_16

http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/nethergate

http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/nethergate_resurrection

Earth Empires - I emailed Jeff about this a couple months back, and he explained that GOG simply isn't interested in A:EFTP since they already have A1-6. Of course, that doesn't make sense (A:EFTP is really an entirely different game to, and not just a remake of, A1), but that's apparently their position. And by this GOG "logic," it's not likely the remake of A2 (which is coming out at the end of the year - awesome) will be on there either. So what information do you have that indicates they've changed their mind? Or is this just wishful thinking?

Thanks, Randomizer - I know Spiderweb tooltips and game manuals aren't too reliable (hence Strategy Central), but just wanted to be sure.

I'm starting up A6 again after a couple years, and want to make sure: the in-game tooltips indicate Dexterity "Helps you... hit more often with melee and missile weapons." I assume this is a typo on Jeff's part, and it's really Strength that boosts melee to-hit (as listed in the OP, and as is the case in every other Spiderweb game I'm aware of), but could somebody please confirm?