mikeprichard

Hyena - just checking in for a bit, and not sure if you're still around, but to confirm: from my previous extensive testing on two different game files, there's no "random factor" in the town destruction schedule.

I previously started a stickied thread with suggested improvements that would make Avadon 3 a much better gameplay experience than Avadon 1 and 2: http://spiderwebforu...y-suggestions/. But if nothing else, for the love of all that's holy, PLEASE REMOVE THE LEVEL CAP. That is all. P.S. As Kelandon mentioned, I really appreciate your working directly with us on the forums to solicit suggestions and feedback. It's frankly the first time I've seen this kind of interaction from Spiderweb during the development cycle (outside the closed beta testing team). I'm sure it will make Avadon 3 that much stronger, and hope this closer connection to the fan community is a trend that will continue with future titles!

nobear - just checking in for a bit; thanks for continuing to post the results of your testing! Few points: Nature Lore - it sounds like you've tested every single cache in the game except for the one way in the NW near the border wall; if you test that one and post the final result (I'm thinking it will either be your existing 22 requirement or maybe 23/24), I'll update the OP. Vahnatai Lore - the "30" estimated total in the OP is for Rune Reading, not Vahnatai Lore (although I confirmed in-game that VL points do add to the displayed Rune Reading total in the character sheet), so I have no idea on that one. It looks like the VL requirements may remain a mystery for now. Pathfinder - I didn't do any serious testing of this myself, but Hardiness and resistances don't have anything at all to do with the effects of Pathfinder (which only affects whether you take damage when walking over damage terrain). Just don't want you wasting time trying to factor those in to the Pathfinder effects somehow. But here's a suggested test: with 24 total Pathfinder, try walking over lava for a few minutes - just make sure you don't use a lava area with periodic "explosions" like the giants' caves, as those aren't negated by Pathfinder. If you never take any damage after doing that, I think we can confirm your number. Cheers!

I've confirmed with 98% confidence that the trap in Sharimik City Hall, at 29 required Tool Use, is the hardest trap in the game, followed by certain others at 24, 22, and 21; updated the OP. Also, I'll be taking a break from Avernum for a while, but feel free to post more info here on these (especially the unconfirmed Rune Reading/Vahnatai Lore and Nature Lore skill requirements) and other skills. Later!

Avernum 3 remake: Giant Intelligent Friendly Talking Slimes. You heard it here first.

Right, Colchis (like Appleton, Erox, Execa, etc.) wasn't included in the list, as it can't ever be considered a "friendly" town. Unless you consider the slimes friendly...

I actually think you're right about certain special encounters needing VL; I'm just not sure which ones they could be, and don't want to give you any misinformation. So if you're just starting a new game and wouldn't mind helping out, it'd be great if you save before each cache/VL book, then edit the skills by a point at a time to test the exact skill values required. I only got kind of serious about this thread after I was several hours in, and don't quite have the dedication to start over and do this myself, but just throwing it out there if you're really interested in this. You would be advancing the cause of Avernum 3 min-maxing analysis. So there's that. EDIT: I just remembered you can't actually edit Vahnatai Lore in the Character Editor (though you can still edit Nature Lore and Intelligence - NL's "base" stat), and I doubt you want to run back to Ghikra and buy 1 point at a time every time you run into a VL event (although there aren't that many of those, I think). But do whatever works.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to nail down exact amounts of required Rune Reading and Vahnatai Lore (or Nature Lore - not sure where Earth Empires got that ~23 NL value for caches, though it's likely to be pretty accurate from my limited testing); that's why I've still got ?s next to those issues in the OP. But I can tell you I bought 5 levels of VL for each of my 4 PCs in Ghikra relatively early, and I never encountered any related events afterwards I couldn't handle. You also get at least 5 free points for each PC at various points in the mid/late game (including 2 points in the Defiled Crypt), but in order to get them, you'll need at least a couple points of VL on your characters to start with. Not sure about special encounters (what exactly those might be, and how much they might need), and digging through the old forums is turning up a lot of conflicting info - or no info at all.

Pathfinder doesn't have any effect on general poison resistance, if that's what you mean; it will only help you avoid damage from walking on terrain like swamp (poison), lava (fire), etc. Anyway, you'll find that at 20 total points, you'll still occasionally get poisoned from walking on swamp terrain. But at 40 points (10x4), I'm no longer having any issues at all with either swamp or lava, at least not so far.

Yeah, that's what I'm finding, too. But the A3 remake should be coming out in about two years (after Avadon 3), so I'll be looking for you fine folks to do your thing then. I'll probably revisit this list to update it for the remake as well.

I've found that 20 total points of Pathfinder in your party will get you through swampy terrain without getting poisoned 99% 95% of the time, while 40 points (or possibly less) seems to allow you to even walk on lava without taking any damage. That said, I haven't focused on testing that skill, but if you're planning a new playthrough, feel free to post anything you find through your own testing here, and we can make this a mini-"Strategy Central" for A3, at least for skill info.

nikki - OK, I should've known that; I've seen Jeff post on the forums occasionally. Also, confirmed that Vahnatai Lore points add to the Rune Reading point total, and updated the OP.

Thanks, Slarty! Too bad you and Randomizer et al. weren't working your magic to Strategy Central-ize these older titles back in the day, but hopefully this info is useful. Note that a site admin did add a link to the sixth post in this thread (which should probably now just point to the first post in the thread due to my recent edits) to the header of the main First Trilogy forum a couple years ago, but pinning it is very convenient. Anyway, cheers.

Edited the OP based on my further testing to emphasize that even after timely solving a related monster plague, the smaller towns in each region, while not suffering further structural damage or occupation by monsters, will still suffer from missing NPCs as time goes on. This is important, as several NPCs in the smaller towns (Spurn, Shahpur, etc.) are involved in quests, so if you wait too long to resolve those quests, you risk being unable to complete them at all. Of course, you can always try to reset the day in the Character Editor, but that comes with its own risks.

nikki - thanks for the info; I'll start digging through the BoA forums. And as for Tool Use, I was relying on Jeff's post in an old thread (http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/10372-party-useful-skills/#entry117462) I had initially thought was about A3, but was in fact about A4 and was misplaced in the "First Trilogy" forum (site admins, moving the linked topic to the "Second Trilogy" forum would be appreciated). Anyway, I've fixed the OP - cheers.

I've done additional testing with varying levels of the Barter skill at different merchants using the Orb of Thralni (5,000 gold item value) for reference, and can now confirm with 99% certainty that a total Barter skill of 20 - not 18 or lower, as some older forums posts indicate - is needed to get the maximum 45% resale rate at all merchants in the game. For example, Carson - the same merchant in Lorelei who teaches you the skill - had resale prices of 25% of item value at Barter 0, which was among the worst I've recorded anywhere. As I incremented the Barter skill, his resale rates increased by 1% for each point of the skill until skill 20 (45% resale rate) was reached. Further skill increases above 20 had no effect on his or any other tested merchants' resale prices, including merchants such as Grove in Sharimik who had originally offered resale rates of 30-35% at skill 0. I'll continue checking merchants as I play through later areas and revisit earlier ones, but I think I'm now good with Barter; updated the OP.

Sure. I've also been trying to pull together some basic A3 skills info, since a lot of the old information on the forums is either unsubstantiated by testing or just wrong. Anyway, have fun.

Nope. Hardiness (not Defense - many old forum posts are incorrect on this point) will reduce encumbrance for purposes of calculating the AP penalty, but to cast Mage spells in encumbering armor, you'll still need to take the Natural Mage trait.

(EDIT: See original post. Tool Use does not enhance Unlock Doors in the original trilogy.)

Now that I've started my third playthrough of A3 (I just finished A2:CS, and am back in the Avernum zone), I've decided to perfect my old list, which I've now moved to the top of the forum topic for easy reference. I've added the correct Bolton timeline to the slime plague section in the list thanks to alex's old tip; I'll also be updating the list soon with final confirmed data for the few towns I hadn't tested two years ago when I first started the topic. Cheers!

(EDIT: See original post. Tool Use does not enhance Unlock Doors in the original trilogy.)

OK, thanks - so I'm guessing 20 Barter is around the max that has any effect on sellback prices at all merchants. I'll probably do some more testing as I get further along in my own playthrough.

I'd be interested to know if you find merchants that still give better buy/sell prices above Barter 20 (for the whole party) - I'm still not clear on that from reading through old forum threads. The only mostly consistent thing people have said is that sellback prices cap at 45% of base item value, but there may be some lousy merchants that don't reach that cap until Barter is higher than 20 - if ever.

Thanks, Ishad - so apparently there are variations in prices between different merchants even at "max" (5 points per character) Barter skill; I thought I remembered that from the last time I played a couple years ago as well. (EDIT: confirmed this from older threads.)

Earth Empires - great, thanks! Just to clarify a couple things: A new party with two magic users already starts with about 30 total Rune Reading, so are you saying a level 1 party can already access all level 3 spells etc.? I must be missing something here. Also, is Vahnatai Lore checked completely separately from Rune Reading, or does it just add to the same Rune Reading pool? And for Tool Use, the actual max total needed is more like 20-25, and you're saying 15 "base" plus points from items gets you there, yeah?