Grain of Salt

See? Even I misspell it! That just proves my point!

(nitpick) Can no one spell "pylons"? Plylons, Pilons.... almost as bad as Vahnahti. Or Rentar-Ihrno. (/nitpick)

I was moving the party to a space where they were surrounded by stairway nodes. Like how Brett moves Jonah back and forth in Quint. I'll just change the whole thing around them into blackness, I guess. Thanks!

Ahhhhhhh... I remember when this forum was full of posts, and I lurked among them gloriously... Anyway, does Move Party not work in combat? I set it to trigger after a monster was killed, and the party was in combat mode, and it just said "Not in combat" and left me where I was. I thought I saw it work in Revenge, though. If it doesn't work in combat, is there any other way to accomplish what I'm trying to do (move the party to a new town immediately after killing a monster)?

I would not choose BOA over BOE just for graphics, given that the quality is only marginally better. There are many more and better scenarios in BOE (heck, I would buy BOE for Tomorrow and Revenge by themselves).

The forces really can't be that huge. Remember, all of that was unable to destroy a damaged Creator, and then lost the front lines when it was repaired. 6 fighters would not be able to take down an Ur-Drakon. 6 Elite Warriors, maybe, but only if they had him against a wall and kept stunning him. Drixiss killed around 15 Elites in the process of killing Rahul. Drixiss isn't even Ur.

Quote: Originally written by Vicheron: The old foe is Pyrog. He has risen as a lich and is mobilizing the giants. How has he risen as a lich you ask? Maybe it's not really Pyrog, maybe the giants somehow brought him back, maybe it has something to do with the newly founded settlement of necromancers in the Abyss, maybe it has something to do with the fact that his lair was taken by the Empire during the war and turned into a laboratory, or maybe it's a combination of those things as well as other factors. AAAAAAARGH!!! PAIN!!! Ouch. Do NOT bring back Pyrog. Please, please. The plot "Something is attacking Avernum. Stop it." is waaaaay overused. Liches are especially bad, as they invite non-justification like a lightbulb draws moths. Perhaps an powerful artifact that the Empire created in Pyrog Labs has been stolen by someone. Perhaps the party must appease the ghost of a powerful Empire mage that was killed in the war. You could even use your demons idea. But DON'T have giants and a lich attack everything. EDIT: Ephesos seems to have posted first. Ah well.

There was the Abyss in A2, I thought. Bargha and the whole area had fallen to the Empire.

That actually sounds like a decent idea for A5, minus the "Giants! We're all gonna die!" part. There were also some unexplored northern tunnels in A2 (you might explore them in A1, haven't played it) and some lands that were under the control of the Empire. The Abyss has all the charm of A1 and A2 in that completely random monsters and puzzles assail you in the outdoors. Now we just need an original foe or challenge. I agree with Jeff in that monolithic evil trying to destroy the world is bad. (I want the name of that anvil scenario!)

I don't think all the rebels have to die. Not every single drakon is bent on the destruction of the shapers. Not every outcast shaper is, either. Orois Blaze in G3 wanted nothing more than to run a sucessful business. Perhaps after the rebels battle the shapers for a while, after the Council and the Ur-Drakons are dead, the ordinary grunts on each side will stage a massive rebellion against their leaders and then bargain for peace. You can only fight a war for so long before the general populace (in this case human soldiers, serviles, and intelligent battle creations) become tired of it. Orchestrating the rebellion and winning the ensuing battles would be a good Awakened path, I think. (And no one's answered my question. Why and how would an intelligent, shaping-capable servile join the Loyalists?) EDIT: Typo

Glafna- Your ideas are interesting, but probably not feasible. I don't like the idea of a common enemy no matter what side you choose, and I would enjoy seeing the Awakened actually accomplish something, for once. Vampires and anything beyond shades are probably (and hopefully) not going to make it into any Geneforge. That is the domain of Avernum. It also lacks a theme. Observe: Magic Shaping: Mostly missile attacks with additional effects. Battle Shaping: Melee damage and lots of hitpoints. Fire Shaping: A balance between missile and melee. Undead shaping would fluctuate wildly, vampires and skeletons being melee but liches being a missile-with-effects type. There is no central theme to undead besides undead-ness. Separatists: So these are basically rebels that want to shape freely but care nothing for creation's rights? This sounds very similiar to the Barzites, but I have never played G2 beyond the demo, so I don't know. What would be the motivation for joining the sect? Another question I just thought up: If you're playing a servile in G4, and you can shape, how on earth would you join the Shapers? They would kill you on sight. And why would you join the Shapers? It'd be like "Hi, I want to join you and risk my own life fighting my own kind so that me and my race can be opressed."

Quote: Originally written by GIFTSking: Exactly. If they fight they lose their morals. If they don't fight then they'll die. They have to fight the Shapers and Rebels. Kill them both off and restart the Shapers under Awakened beliefs. That is the only way I see for them to win. Huh? Killing off the rebels and the shapers would certainly cause the Awakened to lose their morals. They also definitely don't have the manpower for that. The only way I see for the Awakened to prevail would be to convince both Shapers and Rebels, after they've both beaten the opposite side to death, to embrace their beliefs as a solution to neverending war. I would imagine the Awakened path to be involving a lot of diplomacy and stealth, perhaps the asassination of extreme rebels or extreme shapers. Or they could recruit some shapers and set up a "servile heaven" in a remote location, where everyone is equal and serviles have power. This would probably be easier than trying to force peace.

The Office Helper, I believe. Their only use is pressing the "animate" button over and over again when you're supposed to be typing.

Play G1 or G2. The Awakened believe that the shapers should treat creations as equals, not superiors or inferiors. They are basically rebels that don't run around obliterating cities at will. Of course, they don't have much of a hope because the shapers are completely intolerant of any creation that isn't their loyal servant. (P.S: Why do you have Thuryl's leaving statement in your sig? Just curious.)

EDIT: Double post

Did it! A solo rebel Agent (named The Hypnotist after the hypnotic properties of 15 leadership) has made it through G3 without killing a thing. Without canisters. I lied about alliegance to Akhari Blaze and was going to destroy both Rahul and him (by setting the control panels against him after killing Rahul) but realized that was not happening and accepted the Geneforge as necessary. It's kind of ironic when you think about it. A pacifist just destroyed an entire order of people. Hard parts: Chadwick Prison (I turned of the power and set off the alarm so that the Khrenli might escape), getting that stupid drayk to follow me correctly in Khyryk's tower, sneaking around Dhonal's Keep after attacking Rahul, and not getting killed by warriors while watching the drakon kill Rahul. A thoroughly enjoyable experience, but I have one logic question. Akhari said that they dared not use the Geneforge while Rahul was alive, but why? Drixiss, a single, mentally broken drakon, defeated Anjali and Rahul (4 times) and quite a few of his best soldiers with hardly any help from me. Rahul would have to fight at least 10-15 of such drakons, not to mention the servile armies and the drayks. Then he would have to kill Litalia, Hoge, Mooralas, and an Ur-Akhari....

After actually finishing G3 and seeing that ending (no-canister rebel) I agree with you somewhat. Litalia seemed much more human at the end, and the rebel and shaper causes were both justified. I just wish that the reasons for either side were presented to you when you made the decision. At the actual Creator, it was a question of whether to plunge an island into war or not. I would prefer that Litalia and perhaps Greiner be there, each trying to convince me that their side was the best right before I made the decision to repair or not. Still, an insignificant quip in a phenomenal game, and I hope G4 is a lot like it. (Another engine request: In G3, if a caster knew Essence Orbs, all he would do was cast it at you. No other spells besides scripted events. Can we have a bit of balance? Maybe some mental spells and basic blessings too?)

They could decide to destroy the monsters once and for all. Okay, that's a bad idea. Avernum smashing things, while a good deal better than things smashing Avernum, invites way too much hack & slash to be a good premise. Maybe a series of side quests where there's an offensive agaisnt the sliths or something.

Another futile request... Can we please have the Awakened back in G4? I don't really like G3's moral choices, Rebel or Loyalist, because: Rebels 1. Every shaper on the Rebel side is a completely power-crazed maniac. 2. The poor townspeople on Terrestia and regular soldiers never did anything wrong. Loyalists 1. The Shapers support a clearly flawed system. 2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet. I realize that there shouldn't be an easy option, but maybe the Awakened path could be much harder but more morally fufilling. In G3, there was a shopkeeper in South End who clearly supported Awakened views, but the idea wasn't carried to the rest of the game. On an unrelated note, can we get rid of the creation limit and put some minor creations in? I wanna have an army of worms!

Oi. I don't CARE if they have a good motivation or not. Rentar-Ihrno had a perfectly good and reasonable motivation, and people weren't fond of her comeback in A4. Motivation or not, demons trying to SMUSH AVERNUM is a really, really bad idea for a new game. (No offense, by the way )

The exact quote is: Quote: If my weakest troops fail to eliminate a hero, I will send out my best troops instead of wasting time with progressively stronger ones as he gets closer and closer to my fortress. That aside, I don't like all this "oh, there's still the ____ or the _____ to threaten Avernum." The plot base "Some large force is attacking a place. Stop it." has been overdone by Spiderweb to the extreme. A2/E2 was the first to use it, I believe. Then we had A3/E3, G3, and A4. The newer games are just trying to find different ways to have a place be attacked. We want something fresh! Have us liberate a place from foes! Make us escape from a prison! These aren't great ideas, but there's gotta be something better than "Something's attacking Avernum. Stop it."

Ah, thanks. Looks like I'll be making artilas and plowing them into mines for a while.

Quote: Originally written by rantalot: come on you cant tell me demons werent cool in bashikova in BoA it can be one of the plagues in A5 kinda like the shades in A4 The shades in A4 were interesting because they were NOT a "Hey, let's hack through several billion minor monsters in an underground cavern before we get to the spawner-type boss!" There is also the issue of motivation. A whole game based around the idea "An enemy is attacking because it's evil. Kill it." is a weak game, no matter how well the atmosphere or the fights are done. Demons in particular are prone to this. Give them a motivation, make them interesting, and don't throw millions of imps at us in every corner, and maybe.

Sorry to revive the topic, but I think I'm stuck. In Creator's Hall, there's a door that is locked by a magical force. I assume that you have to kill the drayk nearby to open it. Did Khoth actually manage the task of luring it out into the open and dominating enough glahhks to kill it? Or is there something I'm not seeing?

The First Expedition was slaughtered "to a man and a woman." This could be interpreted as being slaughtered completely, or only a man and a woman left alive. But that aside... Please, please, PLEASE no Dorikas. If he's done WELL and CONVINCINGLY MAYBE a sidequest, but NO MORE! We want an ORIGINAL PLOT! All I can think of at this point is a ridiculously G3-type plotline involving the overthrowing of the Empire, but there's gotta be something. Take the engine and fighting system of A4 and slap a good plot on it, and you have a very nice game. Please! Aw, who am I kidding. It's probably gonna be Avernum 5: Revenge of Rentar-Ihrno's Sister.