ultra112

Btw does anyone here felt that the Stalkthorn is rather disconnected with the story, I mean there are absolutely zero mention of it and it made me feel like it's just there for the sake of being there as a kickstarter creation.

you know I think Jeff should have some sort of index or meter that shows your reputation numbers cause it would be a whole lot better to keep track on the possibility on join which faction

4 hours ago, alhoon said:

 

So, what kind of non-D&D crossovers would you imagine? 

 Though I have been wondering about the possibility of a crossover with either resident evil or Divinity.

Now that you mentioned it, in mutagen when you are engaged in a battle with the enhanced sholais outside of the gates of the vat lab; the sholai will throw a gourd to the ground which will bring forth multiple creations to aid them, when I saw this I thought that "OMG, did Jeff just throw in a pokemon reference here?" 

Not sure yet tbh

Perhaps a human lifecrafter would be suited to interact with them 

Also I do wonder how will organizations like the Keepers of the Feathers, Order of the guardians and Dawnslayers react to a shaper along with their capabilities.

ah so the cautious approach then

Come to think of it, I can't find Zora after entering the tunnel. 

I wonder if the Shaper in question could help regrow Ezmeralda's leg?

huh then it might be have been a bug

Also going back to Ravenloft, I wonder what the reaction will the big time heroic npc like Ezmerelda Radanavich or Rudolph van Richten have when they meet a shaper?

3 hours ago, ClawBug said:

I killed them but I don't get the text

did you put in your junk bag?

6 hours ago, Slarti said:

Here's an analysis of creations and shaping types in Infestation.  This is similar to my topic for Mutagen, which uses objective math as much as possible, and tries to "flatten" a profusion of numbers into just a few easy-to-compare scores per creation.

 

Overview

Infestation has maybe the best balance among Shaping Types from any Geneforge game, old or new.  Some creations are still a lot better than others, but each shaping type is quite strong when used correctly, and each excels in different situations.

 

• Fire Shaping excels in spammable AoE attacks.  This is great when you face numerous enemies that aren't spread too far apart.  It's a brute-force, inflexible approach which requires minimal thinking or support (though tactical positioning can be important).
• Battle Shaping can pump out an obscene amount of ST damage when in melee range, making it especially good against tough high-HP enemies where there is one primary threat that doesn't move around.  Closing to melee swiftly is crucial.  It also has the sturdiest creations, so pairs well with healing.
• Magic Shaping offers reliable, renewable access to incredibly powerful statuses that go beyond what spellcasting can get you.  It has the most variety, and is very flexible.  As such, it rewards (and sometimes requires) thoughtful tactics and flexible thinking from the player.

 

General Approach

• Level matters, since it's the almost sole determiner of attack accuracy (in addition to boosting evasion, HP, and damage).  The most effective way to increase creation level is by increasing the PC's Shaping skills... which means that, if you're shaping at all, those skills will offer a bigger "bang for their buck" than increasing Battle Magic or Melee Weapons ever will.
• Because of this, advancing only one category of Shaping is most effective.  Spreading out those points just to throw in creations that can cause certain status effects, or tank slightly better (it's really hard to tank at all with Mutagen's combat logic) mostly isn't worth it.  Even the status effects won't land consistently.

 

Creations, Best to Worst
Because the shaping types play so distinctly, I've split up the "best to worst" list by shaping type.  The numbers listed below are my own calculations (based off raw game data + spreadsheets, and sanity checked by playtesting).  They assume the PC has 8 levels in each shaping skill and all Create X canisters/codexes/training.

- Essence cost: expected cost (with recommended augments) / base cost
- Survivability: HP, magnified it to represent damage "prevented" by resistances/augments, & averaged the phys/elem numbers.
- DPS: Average damage from their best repeatable attack, multiplied for haste and crit passives, bonus AP, etc. as appropriate.
- New to this analysis: I have also adjusted DPS slightly (-3% per notch below a threshold) to account for accuracy based on creation level and default attack accuracy, which is relevant against endgame bosses (or any time you're "pushing it").
- They do not assume the presence of any PC equipment that boosts creation stats.

 

Fire Creations, Best to Worst
Tier 1: Drayks (26/14 essence for LV 16, Survival 201, DPS 71(124) w/ AoE spam)
Tier 2: Fyoras . (12/6 essence for LV 14, Survival 101, DPS 35(61) w/ AoE spam)
- Basically the same creation, Drayks just have higher base level, better attack mults (+ faster animations)
- Best offensive passives lets them spam AoE cone attacks with average output boosted 25% via haste chance (it's +35% but stacks additively with the Haste status)
- Overload (damage in parentheses) is hard to use early, but once you hit higher creation HP and get Mass Healing, it allows you to deal insane amounts of damage with very little risk
- Cheap cost allows you to run many copies, boost level+damage with Int levels, and/or conserve essence

 

Tier 3: Drakons (24/24 essence for LV 19, Survival 318, DPS 142 w/ Burn)
Tier 4: Roamers . (11/8 essence for LV 14, Survival 153, DPS 43 w/ Wrack)
- Less efficient than Drayks/Fyoras, but a decent option if you want to mix in a sturdy creation with ST damage for similar total cost
- AoEs are weak and not worth buying, but Drakon Burn does get you some extra DoT

 

Tier Nope: Cryoas . . . . (18/9 essence for LV 15, Survival 153, DPS 37 w/ Daze)
Tier Nope: Cryodrayks (33/18 essence for LV 17, Survival 208, DPS 83 w/ Daze)
Tier Nope: Ur-Drakons (36/36 essence for LV 20, Survival 330, DPS 165 w/ Burn)
- More expensive versions of their base types that just aren't worth the extra cost in any way

 

Tier Nope: Pyroroamers (12 essence for LV 11 remote controlled bomb)
- Poor use of essence compared to just making another AoE spammer

Battle Creations, Best to Worst
Tier 1: Rotghroths (18/18 essence for LV 19, Survival 351, DPS 127(222) w/ Acid + DoT Boost)
- 6 AP attack means unparalleled ST damage for their essence cost if they can stay in close melee range
- Free Acid and an only-one-needs-to-buy-it boost to all your Acid and Poison also helps with DoT to take down big single targets
- Overload (damage in parentheses) makes their damage output even more insane, though it's not free
- Tankiest creation outside of Rotdhizons, and tankiest by a mile for their essence cost

 

Tier 3: Battle Alphas (22/14 essence for LV 18, Survival 320, DPS 65 w/ Stun/Daze)
Tier 4: Thahds . . . . . . (12/6 essence for LV 14, Survival 141, DPS 40 w/ Stun/Daze)
- Worse DPS than Rots, but if you want some creation-based Stun and Daze they're an OK option

 

Tier 4: Iron Clawbugs (13/10 essence for LV 17, Survival 167, DPS 53 w/ Poison)
- Early game stat upgrade over Thahds, better for longer fights where one Stun won't cut it
- The only alternate creation that is cheap enough to overshadow the base creation entirely

 

Tier 4: Stalkthorns (20/12 essence for LV 18, Survival 180, DPS 105 w/ Slow/Poison)
- Needs to be Rooted to get this DPS
- Situational, disposable option for when Battle Shaping really needs a ranged attack

 

Tier Nope: Rotdhizons . (33/26 essence for LV 19, Survival 459, DPS 151 w/ Acid + DoT Boost)
Tier Nope: Battle Betas (28/18 essence for LV 21, Survival 337, DPS 82 w/ Stun/Daze)
- More expensive versions of their base types that just aren't worth the extra cost
- Battle Betas might have a super limited use case due to the unusual 3 level advantage over Battle Alphas, for if you need stuns and that 15% accuracy really matters.

 

Tier Nope: Clawbugs (11/8 essence for LV 13, Survival 136, DPS 32 w/ Poison)
- Only slightly cheaper than its upgraded version and much worse

 

Tier Nope: Volatile Thahds (10 essence for LV 13 remote controlled bomb)
- Doesn't play well with Battle Creations since everything else wants to be in melee range; it can't really help you close to melee either

 

Tier Lol: Ornks (20/12 essence for LV 9, Survival 64, DPS 13 w/ Stun)

Magic Creations, Best to Worst

Tier 1: Gazers . . . (28/22 essence for LV 20, Survival 198, DPS 153 w/ Charm + Status Rave)
Tier 1: Eyebeasts (41/32 essence for LV 21, Survival 202, DPS 159 w/ Null + Status Rave)
- Strong ranged ST DPS which also spams inconsistent but strong statuses
- Nullity is situationally fight-winning, and uses Curse Resistance, which is rare
- Dominate is situationally fight-winning
- Incredibly flexible creations, limited only by your tactical imagination
- Can even tack on Wrack/Vulnerable access if needed
- Eyebeasts are expensive, but just one makes a big difference
- Extra Gazers can be fairly affordable, as they don't all need Dominate

 

Tier 2: Glaahks . . . (27/17 essence for LV 16, Survival 268, DPS 59 w/ Stun spam)
Tier 3: Ur-Glaahks (34/22 essence for LV 17, Survival 243, DPS 64 w/ Stun spam + Charm)
- Stun spam is situationally fight-winning
- Dominate is situationally fight-winning, though Gazers are probably the better user
- Being restricted to melee is a limitation, but they are also among the sturdiest creations

 

For a party combining several of these 4 creations: Nullity, Dominate, and Stun attack 3 different resistances, so you'll never truly be locked out of a status-based strategy.

 

Tier 4: Artilas (11/7 essence for LV 15, Survival 117, DPS 34 or 53 w/ Poison)
- Great early game creations with an oddly powerful melee attack
- Better than Fyoras until you have the essence/stats to take advantage of good AoE spam

 

Tier 5: Vlish (13/10 essence for LV 13, Survival 109, DPS 32 w/ Curse)
- Not very good, but being the only consistent way to place Curse gives it a potential niche

 

Tier 5: Searing Artila (24/12 essence for LV 16, Survival 104, DPS 38 w/ AoE spam + Acid)
- Similar to a Fyora, but costs twice as much
- Does have access to both acid (ranged) and poison (melee), for a situational DoT inclusion

 

Tier Nope: Charged Vlish (18/14 essence for LV 14, Survival 116, DPS 39 w/ Vulnerable)
- Like Vlish, but more expensive, and there are better Vulnerable sources (like Gazers)

 

Tier Nope: Cockatrice (32/20 essence for LV 21, Survival 192, DPS 74 w/ Stun/Daze)
- A bit like a Glaahk that only tries to stun half the time
- Requires picking up canisters all over the distant bits of the map to even achieve these stats
 

I thought Ur-Drakon did great with an AOE attacks plus the DPS main skill 

Come to think of it the only creature that could remotely be a threat to a shaper in the game of thrones world is a dragon

I agree, they shouldn't cost as much as a Gazer as well

1 hour ago, Mechalibur said:

From a purely optimization standpoint:

 

Servants and Awakened are good for early training access. You don't even need to make it to the loyalist encampment any more, Tyallea will teach you pretty much everything, including rotghroths. You can even bypass the reputation check with leadership. The downside is joining the Servants makes the Takers hostile, you can't enter their town or do any of their quests while aligned. The Awakened get you pretty easy access to every spell and creation (other than Cockatrice) and don't turn anyone hostile.

 

All the really good stuff, however, is with the Barzites. 6 canisters require the barzite badge, and can't be bypassed by killing Barzahl. You can get an extra rank in quick action for 2,000 coins if you join them. There's a unique charm you can get if you give them an extra conduit shard. They're the only faction that teaches Creat Cockatrice (you can get a total skill of 6 this way). And they give access to shaper record turn in for lots of cash and xp. Downside is Takers and the Loyalist encampment turns hostile.

 

Takers... are a role playing choice. I was unable to find any value in joining from a gameplay perspective. The Awakened get you all the same training so much earlier.

Ok I got to say I'm quite disappointed with only the Barzites teaches you how to shape the cockatrice, tbh I think Phariton should have been able to teach you that as well.

but there is a female guardian who is shown to be very loyal for him though

I wonder if Avadon will get remastered as well?

perhaps Jeff left the Frozen DoT out due to time constraint?

tbh I think the recruitable companion should have been given the level up capability to help keep up with the threats. 

3 hours ago, alhoon said:

That's what I mean with the "low magic" world. One of the biggest acts of magic in the books were the red-haired witch that was supporting Stannis Baratheon SHAPING a shade - or giving birth to a shadow demon. And using magic to shape herself young. 

Pffft. I say PFFFT. A shaper would laugh with that n0000b. 

 

Also, for GoT, let's define some things. 

Do we mean Shaper as in "loyalist" ? Do we mean Shaper as Lifecrafter? 

Because a Barzite in GoT world would act very differently than a Shaper. A Taker would do his or her thing, free from the oppressive weight of the Shapers. An Awakened now... 

that is a hard one. They are not adverse to power and they are pro-Shaper ideas with the exception of Creation rights. An Awakened would probably not be fine with some of the things, the few things, mages do in GoT. I don't just mean Shaping a Shade to kill a competitor, but also what that priest of light did with saving someone from the dead. 

An Awakened or a Shaper now, would also try to deal with that strange disease we saw in the tv series (I have read up to book 4 and not all of it, so some things I saw only on the series which I watched till season 6; not season 7 or 8). 

A taker would probably take the side of the deformed people with the disease that go mad and try to cure them and/or make them into an army so that those dregs of society could Take their Free.

A Shaper would try to contain them first and then, if possible cure.

An Awakened would probably bring a compassionate approach of healing and containment till those going mad had to be put down. I THINK. 

A Barzite would weaponize the disease and try to Shape it in a way that it would give him control of the people affected by it. Because Barzites are mostly evil control freaks. 

 

Any input here? 

I think I am spot on the "expected", middle-of-the-pack Shaper and Taker reply to that disease that turned people to mad disfigured people. 

But I am not sure on the Awakened and Barzite response. 

Wow that's a very in-depth look at the reaction from all of the factions, but I would be more incline to loyalist or awakened.

23 minutes ago, alhoon said:

???

What would be the case? 

The shaper laughing at the witch

Yeah that would most likely the case

Seems likely, if I'm not mistaken the magic in the game of thrones' world isn't exactly powerful compare to what a shaper can do