Owenmoz

Alhoon is right. Replacing the graphic wouldnt help. They are... just wrong. And tbh on fire shaping i only like from drayk upwards. And on the last geneforge i only liked kyshaks. Not that i dislike the rest though. And battle it doesnt matter which game it is i'll always have a rothgot. They are sweet. On the later games i put them above war thrall even.

Also Nim, i feel you very much. Its like: "monster come back here! Monster wat u doin? Monster stahp. Im not done killing you"

And nah man. The vlish is horrible horrible. But i think you can take them to the end. They are easier to maintain than roamers clawbugs and cryoas. Magic resistance is a huge plus really. I think if i can take my searing artila to the end you can take your vlish too. Maybe add some strenght and endurance points. Prolly will help.

Yes, I consider "join and betray your allies, or else" to be bullying.

 

And what do you mean the general says nothing of the kind? He is the guy asking me to betray the caravan that carries the geneforge by arranging an attack that would probably kill that nice captain Zakary that had helped me. That's betraying completely the rebellion and at that point everyone I've met was a free servile that didn't want to return to chains or a human fighting against the tyranny of the Shapers.

 

As I said I haven't seen that the other half of the rebellion wanted to put up a tyranny of the Drakons in place of the Shapers. I haven't seen that shapers, power-hoarding and authoritarianism included kept a functioning (if not egalitarian) society. I haven't seen what uncontrolled shaping does till the Monarch.

Ok as a mostly rebel supporting person can i just say. General Crowley said you could destroy the caravan if you want extra trinkets and stuff but it's really implied that he doesnt at all expect you to do that. The shapers only trully expect you to either fix moseh or get monarch's papers. After that report about the unbound and kill the unbound. All of them except fixing moseh and *arguably* killing the unbound are entirelly reasonable. I think in the first district, the main shaper quest is saving shaila. And me as a person, could never trust someone that would throw your own under the curb for some trinkets and power. Exactly why even if they give you trinkets, power and armnistice(great deal on its own) they always appeal for your moral side and try to make you understand why you were recruited and why its important to follow them. Unlike litalia that actually bullies(i.e. first encounter with her) and threathens you into joining her. We have very high standarts for bullying and threathening thanks to her . Miranda was honest and as you see later on well meaning. Crowley was understanding and even. I don't think at that point he felt strongly for or against any side in the war. He just wanted it to end.

Finally you see the dangers of uncontroled shaping as soon as you meet shaila. And whats his name on chickweed bridge.

Also no the support for shapers around here isnt due to playing from the first upwards. I think on the first two games you more easilly sympathise with the rebels. Just on 3 and 4(*arguably* since it really leaves a bad taste to ultimatelly doom the rebelion) shapers have the high ground for various reasons. In 5 really depends on your personal taste more or less.

The game however isnt about easy choices all choices tend to have consequences. Otherwise it wouldnt have been geneforge.

Let's all pretend im not heavilly procrastinating in face of my up comming exams and that my sanity was actually not left at the door. Am I the only one who absolutelly hates vlish. Throughout the whole series with no exception. Is this a normal atitude towards an interesting and usefull creation? I really cant stand them. Only one i can tolerate in terror vlish from g3. Why? I'm usually moderatelly rational. Anyone else in the same position?

 

As for the both choices bad: The main thing I loved in GF was the realization that both sides had good and bad people and that in a war, eventually it comes to the lesser evil choice. It wasn't a clear good vs evil fight or even a Idea A vs Idea B fight. It was a bunch of ideas grouped in two warring sides with people (good and bad) giving allegiance (reluctant or not) to on side or the other.

For example the Cryodrayks in GF4 rebel against the Drakons. (Don't give GF5 examples as there are people in this thread that haven't finished the games).

You and me both man! The whole game brings a rare inclusion of perspectives. I really like that. It makes stuff be realistically complicated and idk. Its real. Often detailedly so. Most characters have their own atitude on their own faction. But honestly get done with harmony asap. Soon after you'll start seeing g3 big picture like. The pace gets different and such.

 

 

In the end, it comes down to limited choices unfortunately. I wanted an option of saying to Diwaniya "I'll help your pathetic butt, but you WILL work with Lankan and forgive them and you will go out in the town and use your influence to heal the divide between loyalists and Lankan's group." And since No-??? (the warrior next to Diwaniya) tried that and failed, I wanted to do the very same with Lankan: "I -will- help you, but you WILL accept the pardon of Diwaniya, work your charisma to heal the divides and fight for your homes with the loyalists. Deny and you're alone"

 

 

 

As for the rest: I didn't real the whole of your discussions since they seem to contain spoilers. I don't know this Khyric or Agatha.

But seeing what I saw, I may go Trakovite again as I did in GF4.

I also agree that Shapers are bad... but the hardcore Rebels in the islands created all those problems. And had the audacity to inform the rebels of "Hey, we made the monsters that kill you friends so you would be pissed at the Shapers. We won't stop making monsters now that you're pissed. We will just make you stronger so you can defeat them. Let the monsters kill those that trust the shapers"

O_O What sort of insanity is this?!

 

 

 

 

In the end, in every GF I went with the choice I felt would be better for the unarmed and the innocent (Which includes serviles, human civilians but also barred creations that just want to be left alone). With what Owenrus said in mind about the impossibility of the situation, mid-way in the second island I would say the rebels are not the best choice.

Ok he could whine less. The comander of fort kentia had a better resolve. But it varies from personality to personality. And while one was fighting mostly worms the other had his hands full. As Nim said if you see what he was up against. I might have whined too.

Also the game doesnt say if he did or didnt heal refugees. Hell the game didnt have refugees. I agree he should act like that. But we honestly dont know that he didnt.

And man do i wish i could do exactly that. Its really bad that dinwayna(how do you spell it?) Didnt allow for a wish or request in exchange for saving him. Lankan wasnt all that bad. Just tempered and proud. Should have met the guard halfway. They were all acting like big babies. At the expense of morale life and resources.

And sorry about the spoilers. But i think they were minor as to the nature of the situation not exactly what happens and so. Like saying you can join taygen but its not really a good ending.

And no there is unfortunatelly no best choice. Both sides are bad. Both sides have good points. But as you may have noted thus far the rebels are causing more damage to the inocent people.

EDIT: May contain minor spoilers as to the nature of the faction choices and endings. But not anything big. Idk how to make the spoiler tags.

You know, I sort of wish that G1 had been the game with only two factions instead. Takers vs Obeyers would actually be an interesting choice. The Taker story is sort of existentially relevant, in its way. And because G1 also has a second set of alliances to choose from, it wouldn't make the game feel too restricted.

 

Then imagine the Awakened showing up in G3, but with a bit more Khyryk than Ellhrah -- having a clear moral high ground, but unlike both the Shapers and Rebels, having a complete lack of power and practical ability to improve things.

That i agree completelly. I honestly think while the awekened ending for g1 was one of the best, they seem rather irrelevant. Makes sense to have just two radical factions. Isolationism does that. And if played the same way as in g3 with hard choices having to be made and a creeping progression on how relevant the choices are it would bring a huge bonus on how personal the game would be.

And in geneforge 3 it would be good that way. Honestly for that guy i would fight both litalia and rahul(Although with him being reasonable and all i doubt it would have gone to that). I for one liked his short and granted not amazing insight on the geneforge 4 ending you know? It was realistic. He knew he held no sway on the shapers he know the player would have no sway in the rebels and he managed to merge the plight of both. And merge it in one great show on the dangers of opression and the need for order. The ending was anticlimatic sure. But playing geneforge 3 you don't feel heroic. Even as a pure loyalist the only good part was facing litalia and with enough leadership the encounter is more sad than satisfactory. And playing as a rebel you don't feel righteous at all. Greta tries to make you feel better just doesnt erase what you had to do. Sure doesnt motivate you to get done with the gull's rebel main quest. So homestly i would settle for an anticlimatic but reasonable ending.

 

This. It's worth pointing out that this was intentional -- Jeff wanted the player to have to choose between two very problematic options, for effect, and he succeeded at it. Some people liked that, but I think the general feeling can be seen in the fact that by far the most popular character from G3 was not Greta, or Alwan, or even Litalia -- it was Khyryk.

Yeah but lacking moderate rebels i think shapers have the moral high ground(although i have to say going about expressing for creation rights and not actually joining the rebels give for a very though walkthrough as no one will help you which puts moderate pro shapers at a disadvantage) as geneforge games take place 200 years after the baring of sucia. And if you play the games you see how much they evolved in terms of creation rights in that little time. A rebelion on such a scale might have been justified if the shapers were hell bent on being backwards. But no. Little by little they were begining to take better care of their creations. One thing that was unlikelly to happen however would be servile independence. Only astoria and khyrik spoke anything of it. And astoria was only because of the war i think.

And yeah Khyrik was indeed one of my favorite characters in the whole series along with miranda and few others. I sincerelly wish that geneforge 3 had an ending with his own faction. He seriously was the only thing stopping me from joining the rebels. But i'll try this walkthrough. I modified it so money wont be an issue so in less than two days im in dohnals. And i'll come back at you on the icy end rebels Triumph. Usually by that point any rebel wants me dead. But to be honest. Compelling arguments for the rebels are all over(most notably first third and fourth islands, just not harmony). Its just a matter of the ends justifying the means.

Quick side note. I read somewhere that compared to other games you gst the eyebeast relativelly early is there any truth to that. And if so where are the canisters.

Bixz, I actually agree with his view point of "I can't make more! What do you want me to do?!"

However, the answer to that is: "Get No-whatever, drop a couple of turrets to free up slots and lead your creations to the battle." You know, like my char does.

Sure, he's not a Guardian, but he was the only shaper around. Even if he wasn't in the first wave, the morale boost of having a Shaper 10 meters away would help his human soldiers. And he COULD down pods and remake creations that fell. Or heal the humans. And yes, he could also throw a spell.

Sitting in his throne and going Moseh (GF4) isn't the answer. Moseh was pinned to the crystal. He could get his butt off the throne and go kill some rogues.

 

Slartibus: Foreign or not (I'm not from USA anyway), his name sounded girly. I didn't do it to demean girls as you may be thinking though. I've played a woman in GF5, I found Greta, Miranda and Astoria to be the best characters in GF games, and Litalia is one of the biggest bad-asses I've found in games (and complicated to the point I can't decide if I hate her or love her).

That said, and my respect for the women in GF series declared: Diwaniya is a girly name in my opinion, given to a lame and pathetic Shaper.

 

PS. the worst woman character in the series IMO, is Guardian Malkar's girlfriend in GF5. That does nothing but stammer before he dies, and does nothing but cry after he does.

Ok to be honest he wasnt all that lame and pathetic. It was his first posting as a full shaper and he was just not strong enough. I remember on the conversation with him when you manage to convince him to make creations it really must have taken up the last of his essence as as noted they were incredibly dumb. Now while taking the game scenario i would agree with take your creations and charge against the enemy. We have various factors to consider. First he had no idea what he was fighting again. For all he knew there was another possibly more experienced shaper making them. Which holds more than true if you think that both litalia and master hoge were there. Which both only talk to you of all shapers. He would have had his back side handed to them if he charged against the rogues as soon as they appeared and the whole island would have lost the only shaper in it and the only person who realistically could protect them.

Then we have the fact that indeed if it were real life. San Ru would have been flooded with refugees. Absorbing creations and leaving to battle would have left a very big target that can barelly deffend itself.

Honestly he was young. And barelly had that brainwashed certainty other shapers have. If lankan and the rebels actually fought with him and supported him he would have been very gratefull and honestly i think it would end up with a leader that actually cared for the population and made active work to make their lives better. At that point he needed them as much as they needed him.

And sure you can get where lankan is coming from but how can you trust someone who can barelly control himself. I mean sure you're angry. But punching a shaper isnt bravery its self indulging stupidity. If he treats a shaper like that whats stopping him from treating his followers and his equals worse. Today i feel like gutting a servile. Lets do it. He basically doomed his friends and destroyed families just cause he couldnt control himself.

I mean don't get me wrong. I sort of do get the rebels. Its just there was nothing the shaper could have done. For them at that time. And if he tried. Literally one day before you reach him(as you find hoge in the map right before san run), he would have died.

Honestly i love geneforge 3 but they make a very unconvincing case for joining the rebels. Even if you sacrifice your sanity for power, you can get more power pro shaper. And sure plight of the humans and serviles but tbh. Most of the problems in ashen islands is the rebel's fault. And the only area you could realistically join them would be gull's island since agatha is not a great alternative. But the "price" you have to pay is too high imo. I really played the game many times. And its my favorite with 2 and 4 close behind. But I can't do rebel. Barzhite is more rewarding than geneforge 3 rebel. All other games have better faction dynamics.

Indeed. Although remember that being creative is a very difficult thing to turn on and off. As an example, look at that big fat guy writing the dragons books (and tv shows now). His creativity dried up 10 years ago when he released book 4. It takes a damn lot of work to do what Jeff does and I don't envy him the job. Creativity is hard.

That is too true. And the harder you try to be creative the less likelly it is you'll make something decent. Why many artists have hiatuses. And with jeff the biggest problem isnt computers or even programing from what i read. It is mostly motivation. So mix those two and you find one day you wake up feeling really creative but you cant bother to write your ideas down or be productive. Other days you just feel like being usefull but your brain is having a hard time spelling bananas. The whole process of developing games seems to be hard. Specially since it seems to be all mostly done by him. In big companies we have people responsible for coding, some for the story. Others for graphics. Anyway. Seems a lot to expect from him. But to be honest i was very mislead about his age. As he looks older than my father who is steadilly walking to his sixties. Forty isnt too bad. And he seems to be doing some remakes for the forseeable future. That buys him time to be creative and stuff. But yeah tabletop blades of geneforge is still something i want to see

There is no geneforge for humans in G2.

I knew my memory was tricking me! Thanks.

I remember on the geneforge 2 when i first played i found a geneforge like thing for humans in the north. But on later playthroughs i cant seem to find it. Did i just imagine it? If i didnt please spoil.

He might end up losing a noticeable part of his fan base which is already small. Amd move out to a market he has no hope in surviving. Plus it seems that the players have much more to win with the creating games thing. And finally mmo's arent easy to make and most times they have very bad reviews. Even tamriel unlimited was complicated for a very experienced corporation. Too many risks even if jeff actually enjoyed that line of work

Yes im sure. It would be obviously pointless

 

Is it? The choice of what to label "terrorism" and what not to, is a highly political, subjective choice. It doesn't have to be, but at least the way the word is used in English it sure is.

Its not that subjective. The use of violence induced fear and unrest to achieve a goal(usually, political, ideological or religious) is reggarded as terrorism.

My main point is that it shouldnt be equated to the ideologies in the name of which it is done. Its unethical. And labelling things terrorism subjectivelly or for political reasons is very wrong not to mention decietfull and its the sort of thing that fuels prejudices. Not only that but it also is playing with the feelings of people whose lives have been affected by it.

You might not agree with one or other ideology or religion or whatever. Thats cool. It is your right. I sure hope no one is forcing you to. Actually most countries give you the power to vote to exerce your view to a limited extent. Hell you can even discuss those views as adults. Most countries do not censor freedom of speech. And i hope a lot more join the list. But don't go throwing the word terrorism around like its nothing. Get me?

To be honest, Avadon always strikes me as very similar to the thing that Athens had going on with the 'Anti-Persia' League. Started as self defence, became a hegemony where the Athenians were at the top, ended up getting pulled into wars with the neighbours in Sparta, et al.

 

But then again, you can find similarities with anything if you look hard enough.

Nice one! But the delian league ended up with athens being overbearing towards the members of it. Not towards persia. I mean they fought and won the war *allegedly*. But unless i rememember it wrong they didn't keep persian under their boot. They did try to get revenge but i don't think they actually got to have any control or influence over persia. Unless you're comparing the tawons with spartans. In which case. I don't agree a lot.

But thats a very nice analogy. Its actually stricking because lesbos the weakest member was the first to revolt which sorta resembles wyldrim(i actually like shamans but they are by far, by very far the weakest of the bunch, their attacks are worthless against about a quarter of all oponents. Plus they don't have an organised leadership/government and if im not mistaken the population isnt very high)

Yeah Alberich. I have to correct you on equating comunism with terrorism. Even anarchism doesnt fully equate but still you have to point me to a terrorist attack orchestrated by a comunist body.

Do I really have to? Well, heck, that’s easy. Britannica allows fifty to the Red Brigades alone: http://www.britannica.com/topic/Red-Brigades

Fair point. But it still does not equate one to the other. I could go out and bomb a building in the name of capitalism. That does not mean i speak for it. And if you know about the red brigades you would know the italian comunist party strongly condemned those attacks and even tried to contact the kgb so that they would pressure Czeck republic to stop the funding. Terrorism is terrorism. Its not equal to a political/economical/religious ideology. And i think besides geneforge 3 most acts by rebels in all spiderweb games were acts of rebelion not terrorism. You might not agree with their ideology nor with their methods but its wrong to equate their ideology with their methods.

I get where you're coming from but you came off as a right wing extremist with your comment on the matter.

Yeah Alberich. I have to correct you on equating comunism with terrorism. Even anarchism doesnt fully equate but still you have to point me to a terrorist attack orchestrated by a comunist body. Now the soviet union was just about as expansionist as the united states otherwise there wouldn't have been a cold war and instead a creeping dominion. And lenghty war against the soviet states would be lenghty indeed and very costly. There was however a vaccum of power in most places that everyome tried to fill one way or another leading to amongst others the break up of yugoslavia. Also avadon and the pact may have started out as a defensive organisation but well it quickly became the equivalent to a bully with imunity. Also avadon is very controling over the farlands. And while they don't loot, they do charge heavy taxes to the farlands. To conquer the farlands would be a waste of time and resources and unless they were willing to commit mass genocides pointless. Even if you erase a government to erase a culture is a much harder job to do. Not only that partizan and guerilla warfare would likelly be the end result of it and severe instability.

I would really rather not go into this discussion however.

This was to be a poll. Even a light hearted discussion on factions. Not a full hearted conflict between personal beliefs

I think its easier to view the tawons as russia after the end of the cold war. I think marked difference being that tawon empire is not with 47% population bellow poverty line. Plus dheless *sorta* looks like putin. Although the curent situation with the pact and the random clashes are heavilly reminiscent of the situation in eastern europe leading to and after the colapse. Cept they seem to have different mindsets.

In the end i have to give you right here. If you compare avadon with the soviet military you quickly realise that both were one of the few things keeping a strong grip in the pact and enemies at bay. All changed with the attack on avadon/afghanistan unnecessary fiasco. Never thought about it that way. But ultimately i get where the pact came from and i get why the tawons reacted the way they reacted. But i still firmly believe the whole situation could be easilly sorted out without violence if only the pact had been more diplomatic and hadn't taken their victory for granted. Either keep your enemies close or completelly erradicate them even from a purelly military point of view the pact went about it all wrong.

Ok honestly aside from the fact that siding with redbeard in the second game is very pointless. I mean Cahlan isnt that much worse of an option but ultimatelly if redbeard is to be replaced i'd rather do it myself. Pro pact anti redbeard seems like a very valid option.

But then lets look anti pact anti redbeard. I think throughout the games we realise the pact can be damaging to the pact nations(I.e., kva, wildrim etc) and its freaking savage towards the farlands. I get it against wretches titans and ogres, they seem to be not open to diplomacy. And i would understand khemeria(even if i dont agree) over them being strong enemies of the wildrim. And the viking pirates even. But the pact is relentless in their punishment. As a whole the destroyed that khemerian city over the stupidity of one person. Those questions redbeard asks on what to do with a vilage that did this or that anti pact action. Among others. Finally we have the tawons. You defeated them. Fair game. You gained independence. Even fairer. But to constantly harrass them and kick them while they are down? Not to mention the constant syphooning of their resources and disregard to their rights. Its not only wrong but ultimatelly dumb. They have money, they have magic they have experience and power. Much simpler to have them as allies. I do guess most aliances need a comon enemy to keep together. But i honestly think most pact nations and their people resent eachother more than they resent the tawons. Besides want another example on how diplomacy is better than autocracy? Dheless a single man managed to unite the farlands against the pact. Including titans, ogres wretches and vikings which through my personal view are not easy people tp deal with. Unlike with the shapers i cant understand the pact's arrogance in dealing with others.

 

eh?

She's angry with the Shapers for being evil, genocidical and complacent to the point that the empire breaks up but does her job. In GF5, she would be probably siding with Astoria.

Alwan listens to her cause he agrees with her to a degree about how naive and complacent the Shapers have been and of course because she has a very good success record as an agent.

 

Miranda doesn't treat other shapers like trash, except if they're trash (the vast majority). She's one of the very few shapers in GF4 that accepts you even if you're a rebel and Geneforged. She doesn't see you as a creation and she doesn't underestimate Drakons and Drayks because they're creations. And of course, she's angry with the Shapers that keep their arrogance in the face of defeat! That arrogance has cost the Shapers a lot and it's the reason they go through a 10 year-civil war.

The comment about Alwan isn't an insult, lack of loyalty or backstabbing. It's just a friend\significant-other\lower-rank criticizing her friend\significant-other\superior.

Thank you!

All the best with your moving! I hope the years ahead of you are much better than the ones past. I used to be very good with words. So imagine im using better constructed phrases. The meaning remains the same.

Ok. But we all agree its not to be in terrestia. Or known shaper lands.

Yah. That i really dislike cannons. But i'd like some context to it so in that aspect cannons would be usefull. Has two sides.

Calling anyone anything isn't mysoginy. Mysoginy is thinking for example that miranda just for being a woman should have less rights and oportunities than her peers. Calling her disgusting and other things is a matter of opinion. Wrong as it might be of course calling names is being over agressive about it. But nah. You're a nobody even in the rebel army if she treats you well she's cool. Being pragmatic however is something people with decision power should be. Plus it was war time. People will die. Crying over it wont solve anything. Idk whatever flaws she had were justifiable and her qualities were awesome. But thats *maybe* cause i associate her with some real life person. Anyway i think slartibus was tryna say you can express your dislike over her with other words. Don't feel too ostracised dude. I don't think there is an ongoing meeting on your future here.

I second dungeons and dragons like geneforge game.(when you first mentioned i had no idea what table top means). You're going exactly for the fabled blades of geneforge. Creative freedom! Mission freedom! Interaction freedom! Amaze!

sidhe dreams，made of glass could do the beta testing for you and we all get to enjoy it. I guess the comunity isnt huge so it would be just destributing to friends.

Tell us when you're done. Imma hire a trumpeteer to provide you with a heroes welcome.

 

 

 

 

The thing I like about having 3 slots for crew companions when out and about on land while having a larger pool to choose from is that it creates its own interesting gameplay choice; who's best to bring with you for this mission? who works best together, what role do they fill that a creation can't, or what creations might I need to fill a role my party members can't. It's a mechanic that works very well in Bioware's games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

 

Also I would like to see the shaping system expanded somewhat, not adding more power creep with a 6th Tier, but more lateral expansion; give us maybe a third variant of each creation, possibly give us poddlings, which provide an array of de-buffs depending on which one you choose but have their damage reduced to compensate and make them fill a support role. Add a healing Vlish. Let us make those cryoroamers and guardian roamers, let us make searing AND plated artillas, Stinging AND plated clawbugs, maybe the redshell ones. Battle Gammas (I've always wanted to be able to make those) The thadh shade and the corrupted version; I thought the charged creations in G4&5 were great and added an interesting new mechanic but I disliked how they displaced other creations I'd grown attached to. Might be a bit odd if you're a Sholai to gain access to so many different types, but that's what Canisters are for, right???

Well it worked better in mass effect than dragon age. As in DA it is important you try to take all the party members sort of equally otherwise some quests and interactions won't happen. In mass effect most interactions happen in normandy. So you can actually just pick what you think is usefull. I gotta say that the idea is good though. Just unless you dont give the much personality/background it will be hassle to fully complete the game.

Also i always toughts of making new creations you know? Like maybe make first tier obsolete and add new ones. Or just completelly change the creations. Or to a lesser extent what you said. Allow for further upgrades.

I honestly disliked charged creations though. To me they were fancier more expensive pyroroamers. A complete waste of essence.