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Everything posted by alhoon
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I agree on that. However, they are pretending to be the all-wise many-fail-safes guys. It is hard to improve, but they are supposed to be the best and if that's the best they could come up with, they are buttholes. For all the good things you put forward of the Shapers, there is the other side of the coin and different, much more selfish motivations. From what I have seen from the Servant Minds, there were a few shapers that were mostly motivated by sympathy/mercy and a lot of Shapers that were against-purge mostly so they could continue their work. If the Shapers knew they won't return when they barred the island, instead of hoping they would "be back soon", I have no doubt they would have purged most of what made Sucia so attractive: The canisters and the geneforge. (Not the creations) You're asking me how they could improve: Simply by eradicating the canisters, records and the geneforge would be enough. Few would have reasons to go back there. Doing everything mostly from the beginning would be impossible too. The Servant minds didn't know enough to be useful without the records. The Serviles didn't know anything. To make sure that this impossible task is not undertaken in secret, a contingent of 7-8 Guardians placed on the island would be enough to dissuade rogue researchers from trying to slowly put the research back together, with 2-3 agents showing up every 2-3 years to make sure none of those Guardians do anything naughty. The biggest mistake of the Shapers was that in their arrogance, they thought they would return to researching godhood, because that's what this is about. (Mistake, not crime. Their biggest crime was leaving the Serviles IMO. Even without the Geneforge and the Sholai, the serviles suffered needlessly.) NOTE: I have not yet encountered any sizeable population of Drayks to address the other big crime of the Shapers IMO: the "woops, you are too smart and too hard to control for me to allow you to exist. I have to kill you because you may one day decide you want to be free." That reminds me of Ghaldring's words to one Cryodrayk he shaped "I apologize for making a faulty creation like you" before re-absorbing it or something. The Shapers didn't even feel guilt towards that. NOTE2: I am talking from GF1 narrative only. I would prefer to not discuss in this thread what happens in future games and how the Shapers mishandle the Sucia situation in the worse way. Except of course, in the following spoiler! Warning: Spoilers for future games and part of this between-games lore may change in the remakes - or when I find more about what happened in GF1
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To the Shapers. The man prefers to die free than submit. That's his choice. Fanaticism, but his choice and there's something respectable to staying true to your beliefs. The Obeyers on the other hand are justified to kill a spy and saboteur. He wasn't there to make friends. The Shapers now. They abandoned, for whatever reason, the Serviles on Sucia all alone after instilling into them a culture of obedience and making them dependent on the Shapers for direction, to "do the thinking". Lack of critical thinking would often lead to fanaticism. The Obeyers fanatically worship the Shapers because they were conditioned to. The Takers fanatically oppose the Shapers because they feel betrayed and, after the rose-tinted glasses were removed, they realized they have been treated horribly. The two different ideologies are both tied back to the Shapers. Both sides of the coin, Blind hate and blind reverence, are there because of the way the Shapers made and conditioned serviles (Obeyers) / treated the serviles and abandoned the serviles (Takers). If the Shapers were not complete and utter buttholes, that Servile would not have to die. All Serviles would be closer to the awakened, diverging on one side or the other but not to those extremes we see.
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No spoilers clarification: Some of the assumptions I have been discussing under in this thread, have just been proven (Mine Core zone) to be partially wrong. @CoryleaTake what I said here with a grain of salt and wait to explore more of the island. As a note, my opinion doesn't change but there were things I have not taken into account. Some old timers that we discuss with in the past few years would probably be tempted to say "This is a common occurrence". Well, what can I say? The going-to explanation I have for things I see is based around "The Shapers are irresponsible, authoritarian knowledge-hoarders." So unless I see evidence there's a different reason for something instead of just Shapers acting as irresponsible, authoritarian power-hoarders I go under this assumption.
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What ways are there to clear the "Eastern Mines" please? I have killed every one of those evil pylons that killed my creation and I have found a device that uses crystals to do not-useful-to-me things. I cannot deactivate those machines there, they blow up on me and kill my creations. I guess I could battle-grid my way there and do it, but I wonder whether that would be enough. I have killed every pylon in there because they killed my first ever creation.
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Is there a way to undo the effects of the cannisters?
alhoon replied to Corylea's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
Or, you could do what I do: Put a "please no spoilers" in the opening post and/or title. Then the nice people of this forum would respect your wishes. It has worked for me. -
Is there a way to undo the effects of the cannisters?
alhoon replied to Corylea's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
Trust me, if you want to avoid spoilers, you have to be VERY CAREFUL on what you read... I know that I stopped reading comments in this thread after this one just to avoid spoilers and I have played GF2-5. Keep in mind that most people in this forum have played GF1-5 and perhaps more than once. Then, they gather in this forum to discuss it which is reasonable. So, if you want to avoid spoilers, you have to step carefully. The good thing is that this special forum is for the remakes. -
Is there a way to undo the effects of the cannisters?
alhoon replied to Corylea's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
Do you want spoilers from the other games (that may well be changed in the remakes) or not? There are some not-right assumptions in your post. Non-spoiler, only GF1: I was told by Serviles that they are scared by the changes they see in my character. I am pretty sure it would get worse with time as I consume more cannisters. Tiny-spoiler, from what future games were: Ehh... someone told you that the Rebellion are not exactly paragons of virtue. Take that as a hint... -
Don't worry. What @ultra112 says represents his opinion. The games are really not black and white. I strongly disagree with the assessment that the Rebellion was worse. They were (IMO) a significant improvement not just for the Serviles, but for everyone. Sure, to get there a bloody war was needed. But the next day if the Rebels win (the player decides that...) is better than the status quo pro-Rebellion. Or so I think and many disagree with me. There are different ways to win GF5 BTW. Different endings + variations for each ending. Your ending may (will probably be) different than my ending. My opinion, without spoilers is: The Rebellion at its worst was better than the Shapers at their Worst. The Rebellion on its best was much better than the Shapers on their best. True, the Rebellion at its worst was worse than the Shapers at their best. But that is not a fair comparison. I think most people that are aligned with the Shapers do so because the first games you play a Shaper. You learn the world from a Shaper's purview with the good and the bad, but you're a Shaper. I started the games at GF4 - the Rebellion. So I didn't have the rose-tinted glasses of the 3-games-as-a-Shaper. The only game that really made me iffy about the Rebellion is GF3. But I won't give spoilers. No Spoilers suggestion: I honestly suggest you play GF3-GF5 as they won't be ready for several years. And that's where the Rebellion actually starts. Again, in my opinion, GF1-2 are "prequels" to the story, GF3-5 are the main story. GF3-5 form a closer narrative with many major NPCs from GF3 staying around through GF5. GF1 -3 are located in small areas, while GF4-5 you play in a laaarge part of the continent and cross many realms. GF4-5 have a more cohesive system and better graphics. In GF3 you start to see Shapers ruling over large groups of people, although to get to an actual city instead of backwards small settlements you have to play for some time. In GF1 you see Serviles ruling significant settlements of Serviles and you learn how things were for them when they lived in semi-peace for a century. I honestly doubt those things would change in the future relaunches. What I believe will happen is better consistency between the games and perhaps extra endings or ending variations.
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Wait what? I have it from steam!!! Will I lose my saves too? It loads fine for me so far, but I don't want to lose my saves regardless
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Hi there. I found the time and energy to get back to this great game after a short hiatus. I am progressing steadily, I have reached lvl 12 and I am exploring towards random directions trying to find a Drayk cannister. So... without many spoilers, may I ask which direction I should be looking at for a drayk cannister? I am in some mines North-East with pylons. Sneaky pylons that killed Firetooth, my first ever creation in the game that has been with me since I was level 1. I have no trouble turning back and going somewhere else - after I get revenge on the pylons. My Shaper is level 12, I play moderate difficulty and my creations are level 14-16. Theoretically, I should be able with some save-scumming and item use to get through most areas to grab a cannister. I am not aligned with any faction.
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What new creations you want to see in the remake series?
alhoon replied to ultra112's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
Really? I have not noticed that... Well, then perhaps they do need the leap. -
What new creations you want to see in the remake series?
alhoon replied to ultra112's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
To think, Akhari Blaze had so much control that he could keep 100 unbound under control. But other than right when they're made, Unbound are supposed to be uncontrollable. Fire-and-Forget weapons. That means that after you lose control of them, you should not be able to assume it again. -
What new creations you want to see in the remake series?
alhoon replied to ultra112's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
The quick action allows them to make more attacks, not move faster. I don't know what you mean that it closes distance rather quickly. They have the same speed as all creations IIRC. -
The time I ended up in Pentil's gates, out of essence and literally in my last breath, wounded and with my creations hovering on death's door because of all those $%#$%$@# Vlish was memorable. As I said, I am in-between Awakened and Takers at the time. If it wasn't for those $%^@#$@ Vlish, I would have gone for the Takers probably. But they had to go and put Vlish everywhere and align with the Sholai. I didn't finish the Witcher, but went pretty far. Far enough to have the discussion with my knight Friend from the Order about him thinking I betrayed him and his precious Order by aligning with the "$$$$" (as they were calling the non-humans). It was clear to me that there would be people that supporting the Order although I didn't get in any forums about it, but I was with the Freedom fighters all the way... and I personally I remember some of their choices being ... questionable, but not enough for me to consider them NOT the good guys. You mentioned you're from a country that abolished slavery 150 years ago. I am from a country that had to fight for its freedom several times, overthrowing conquerors and liberating compatriots. Our flag's colors symbolize "Freedom or Death". In the 'enlightment' era of my country, late 18th century, we had songs like "Better live free for one hour, than forty years as a slave". Men were abandoning their villages (under the regime of our conquerors) to live in the mountains and the caves in order to be free.
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Psss. You liked my post as I was still editing it. I hope you still like it.
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I thought at first that I would side with the Awakened. Now, after being at the Taker areas I am not so sure anymore. I don't see myself harming the Awakened to be honest as I like them a lot. But I am hovering between Awakened and Takers at the time. The Takers have guts of steel. I can tell you that. They know their fight would end in annihilation but they are still seeing worth in the fight itself, wanting to die free than live their lives as slaves. They believe their moment of Freedom, the freedom they want to take would be when the Shapers kill them. They LIVE for the moment they will die as martyrs. Fanatics? yes. But there is something admirable in that drive for freedom. Especially after I dealt with the obeyers. All in all, I would suggest NOT joining the Awakened until you speak with the other factions and learn their beliefs. Not just the few words you will hear from their boss, but reading their journals, speaking with the rank-and-file quest givers, see how they live. You dislike the Obeyers and I understand that. Are you ready to sabotage them? To 'turn the tide' against them so that they will die off a few at a time as things turn from bad to worse to impossible for them? I don't think I can do that. I dislike SOME obeyers and I dislike the beliefs of all Obeyers. But I don't hate every and all Obeyers. I don't know what the Awakened will ask of me, but based on what I have seen from all factions, at some point, each and every one of them will want me to make the life of the other factions harder - to the point their societies will collapse and they will die. Perhaps the Awakened are different. Perhaps they want to dominate other two factions instead of completely eliminate them down to the last servile. But I don't hold my breath. The "get with us" quest of the Takers was to go and kill the Awakened boss just because. What has Ellirah done that is so bad to the Takers? He simply doesn't want to jump headfirst to a suicidal war with the Shapers. That's his crime. And by beheading the Awakened (and probably having to kill a bunch of them to get out) they are left weakened at a time that Rogues come in. Rogues that I strongly suspect the Takers are putting there, or the friends-of-the-Takers. Screw that. I am not going to eliminate any faction. Depending on what those quests may be, I may end up not going too far in ANY faction. I disagree with the Obeyers but I will not go and kill them directly, or weaken them to the point they will have trouble surviving. I want all the serviles of the island to live as they were before the Invaders showed up. Disagreeing, yes, but coexisting. People with different opinions and beliefs. I don't want my side to "win" by eliminating the other sides or forcing them to kneel by breaking their legs. I don't have an easy answer as to what the #### I could do, especially at this point. I would prefer to convince the Obeyers to become like the Awakened and I would prefer to convince the Takers that they should not align with powerhungry invaders and send hordes of monsters to kill other Serviles. But I do not want to make the decisions for the Serviles. I was and I will keep being a Lifecrafter at heart, not a Shaper. I will avoid making the decisions FOR the Creations when possible. And I will keep reloading my game when I lose a creation, even though they don't level up anymore and I can make the exact same creation moments after it was killed. I like my creations. They are not expendable* *With the exception of a bunch of Pyroroamers that I Shaper-ly sent to their doom, moments after they were brought to this cruel world.
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I had the same thoughts about how horrible the Shapers have been. The words of The Pentil boss in his journal were another punch to the gut. He has killed his followers, manipulated them or had them tortured (you can see all those bloody logs, shackles and whips) for not being loyal enough to the group of people that abandoned them to die 100 years ago. And what is his deepest desire? His guilty thoughts? He finds himself at time wishing that a Shaper would tell him he did well. THAT is what this person desires and he feels guilty about wanting something from the Shapers. All the leader of the larger group of Serviles, that has blood on his hands, wants is for a Shaper to pet him on the head like a dog and tell him "good boy". Rydell's loyalty is admirable but he's loyal to the wrong people. He's a brainwashed creature and a huge waste of potential. The Obeyers make me feel unclean. They make me feel uneasy in their place. They disgust me. Not because they are themselves disgusting but because of the disgusting things that have happened to them in order to condition thinking creatures to behave like the beat-up Fyoras the Obeyers have tamed. But worry not. There is a solution... Down with the Shaper Tyranny! Burn Shapers in their ivory towers! You may like or dislike the Canisters and down the line the guys on the Rebellion side are not perfect but they are much better towards the serviles and the thinking creations than the Shapers. You are absolutely correct that being a Shaper is shameful. The Shapers are looking down on the outsider people and lock them out of the knowledge. They are hoarding power pretending they are the only ones wise enough to use it, when the world is littered with the disasters of their making. The Shaper Tyranny must end. Welcome to the Rebellion. We will remake the world to a better place. I am hovering between Awakened and takers at this point. I didn't think the Takers could have much except "Unlimited Poweeeer!" to convince me but their absolute dedication to die free, knowing how their fight will end but still wanting to fight for it regardless is earning them points in my favor. Yes, they are fanatics. But they strive for freedom at all costs. According to the Taker beliefs they prefer to die standing up than live on their knees.
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What new creations you want to see in the remake series?
alhoon replied to ultra112's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
To be fair, I finished GF2 without encountering a single Eyebeast. I have never seen one in game. Not once. I know they exist from Shaping. That useless trivia shared... I hope Rots don't get leap attacks. They are supposed to be slow. -
What new creations you want to see in the remake series?
alhoon replied to ultra112's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
A creation that can heal is an interesting idea. However, just an observation: "it seems like such a waste for them to spend so much of their AP healing, while their weaker buddies do the fighting" That's because you play an agent/guardian. My Shaper is the weaker of my team. I cannot compare in power to any of my creations. -
And as importantly for a Shaper: it increases control! I have found out, I kid you not, that it helps to put a point in a "secondary" shaping skill here or there to buy up control. For each level the creations get, their control becomes harder by 2. For each point in every shaping skill you have, your control increases by one. So, if you have fire shaping 9 and battle shaping 1 and magic shaping 1, then you are in trouble from your own creations. Considering we get 10 skill points, investing 2-3 skill points every couple of levels to increase control certainly helps. I go "Fire Shaping main" but I keep a Vlish for casting blessing stuff. I have found enough vlish canisters to make the Vlish not-suck-too-badly compared to my other creations. Thus, I have invested a couple of points in magic Shaping and I have found a cannister that improved magic Shaping somewhere (or Sarcophagus, I don't remember).
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What new creations you want to see in the remake series?
alhoon replied to ultra112's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
Well, you could do that already with a mod. It is very easy to do but time consuming. Also, since the limits of how long a file can be before the game crashes, you couldn't include a discussion about everything. -
What new creations you want to see in the remake series?
alhoon replied to ultra112's topic in Geneforge 1 - Mutagen
I would agree with Shaper vs Loyalist creation lines and I am completely fine with the 3 schools of Shaping and I consider it enough variation. I would agree that loyalists are more limited but that is because they choose to be more limited. Still as they have many more years in this, indeed they should have access to "better" variants. They player should be able to get everything, but be able to get say 4 out of 15 creation categories from Shapers only and 2 out of 15 creation categories from Rebels only. Also, I frankly think that we need more than a simple variant per creation category. I.e. I want more variants than Cryora / Fyora. The new game's customization possibilities are a good step towards that, but I think some of these options should be "locked" until you learn them. I.e. you could get the overload thing for Fyoras from Shapers and the haste from Rebels or something. For the 3rd variant, it could be something as simple as "Fyora-variant with basic level 6 and a different set of abilities (like the roamer's berserk or pyroroamer's blow up)." But all these aside, if some of the abilities you can use are locked till someone teaches you, and each sect teaches you different abilities, I would be glad. It doesn't have to be just "Rebels" and "Shapers", mind you. It could be things like "In areas 1 to 15, the Shapers \ rebels rely on their creations doing much of the buffing, so that's the area where you get the blessing abilities for the magic creations (as well as items that give intelligence to creations). However, in areas 16-30, the Shapers/Rebels rely more on battle creations coming close and personal to the enemy so that's where you would go to get things like hardiness, leap, etc. (as well as items that give endurance and strength to creations)" -
So, to be clear, the formula is "Lock level / mech -1 = LT " ? If that is the case, then mechanics 6 would open even level 50 doors with 8 living tools while mechanics 8 will open level 50 doors with 6 LT. Level 19+ locks, the first that require for me 3+ LT are commonplace or rare? Mines go strictly by mechanics?
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I am pretty sure that the formula has changed to something more organic like " (Lock level - mechanics)/2 = living tools needed, rounded up". I.e. if you are 1-2 short, you need 1LT. If you're 3-4 short, you need 2 living tools. I have seen locks requiring 6 living tools. If the Lock/mech -1 = LTools rounded up and you need 6 living tools at mechanics 3, it means that the lock level is 21! There's no way you would ever get 21 mechanics, so it means you would need like 2 living tools even if you had 10 mechanics!
