Necris Omega

In the end, looking at how he even started with this madness, I think that kind of "magic" can never really happen again. I do find it interesting, though, watching and seeing how the "mainstream" gaming trends influence Jeff in his design philosophies, for good or ill. No, the Avadon codex is NOT an original Jeff Vogel idea, but damn it, I liked it. At the same time, bestiaries that are umteen dozen variants of "[Adjective] Same Frickin' Thing!" across the whole game... It's a license for lazy design, really. Eh, as anything evolves, some bad will always stowaway with the good. It'll be particularly interesting to see what all this does to the original Avernum. We can't say to what extent he'll be revamping the game at this stage, but it does make for an interesting study, being able to take the same game (more or less) and see it redesigned time and time again over the years.

Yet, at the same time, I recall Jeff also vociferously complaining about RPGs as you always an inevitably start out as a 2hp nobody wielding a bent sword killing rats. Nothing cool ever happens until you've ground out a bajillion XP points, and that bugged him. I'unno. I'm personally of the mind that I wouldn't like working in the same field as Mr. Vogel. I think it would be like a magic enthusiast becoming an illusionist's assistant. The magic is lost when you learn the slight of hand. Likewise, I think if I had a front row seat to all the number crunching behind these sorts of games, I'd never be able to lose myself in one ever again. It'd be all about the math, and that is a very, very depressing thought indeed.

Plus the name. "Divine Thud"... It's so unique yet so provocative. What does that mean, anyways? Does a colossal holy book fall from the heavens to squish your enemies? Does Zeus suddenly trip and faceplant upon your foes? What IS a Divine Thud?

I'm about as veteran-y a Spiderweb Veteran as they come. Exile 2 (with the original graphics) was the first massive RPG of that type I'd ever played ever, way back when I was just a wee lad… And… yeah. Honestly, going with the OP, I originally didn't care for the "new" Avernum trilogy. Originally Posted By: Jeff Vogel – A5 Readme And yet, a lot of the older fans really didn't like [Avernum 4]. They didn't like the story. They didn't like the graphics. They didn't like the interface. That right there? That was me (and clearly at least one other person). I no longer have saved what I ultimately said in my final review of A4, but… I know for a fact it wasn't all smiles and sunshine. Had I recently played through the original Avernum trilogy before jumping into A4, it would have been a whole lot worse. In retrospect, it's probably a very good thing I didn't. Since then, I've come to accept the fact that I am and will always be steeped in nostalgia, and while I'll never agree with Jeff that new games are (necessarily) better than old games, I have since come to accept… at least the later 2/3 of the "new" trilogy. Avernum 5, which I just plowed through again, is a really good game. Avernum 6, which I'll tackle here again after I jazz up some of the graphics, is another great game, if only for bringing back that Exile feature I love so very very much, Dual Wielding. Yeah, there'll always be things from the original Exile I'll miss, and curse simplification for getting rid of. I liked the banzai huge spell list of the original Exile (there's something so gleefully primal about a spell simply entitled "Kill"…), weapon poison, and diverse weaponry. Smite as a spear? Just… gah, that's not right! There are also a few things, which, honestly I don't think never even made it out of Exile 1 that I miss, like a few of the unsung draconic treasures like Scrioth and the Death Lance. Puzzles, though… eh, I can see why Jeff axed them by far and large. I really see them as something you either love, or something you just hate, with no middle ground. Those who love them will be fine without them, but those who hate them will be better for it. Also, given the exile system's dialog mode and means of puzzles often amounting to "Riddles" one can often memorize and exploit far ahead of the plot. Me? I find that the vast majority of puzzles all too often are very poorly implemented, puzzles for puzzles sake without any real rational reason behind them. They break up the flow of the game and I just generally don't enjoy them. Pit of the Soultaker? Meh… Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie he really got death threats? Also, this. Seriously, this. What in the name of all that is sacred, this.

Indeed. It doesn't even make a return in Avernum 5, though, that aside, it's amazing how much of an improvement it is over Avernum 4. You don't really notice unless you play them one right after the other... So yeah, I soldiered through Avernum 4. A lot have said it's like a watered down A3, and... yeah, they're right. Sure, you get to actually KILL Rentar this time around, but... she's a fricken ROCK. Magic powers aside, it still feels a lot like Earthworm Jim kicking over the evil goldfish bowl in the end. Plus the Dorikas debacle kinda dispels the effect... Ah, but Avernum 5 is so much better. Not once have I felt (in the normal passage of the game, the Slith Temple was a bit of a violent hair remover) compelled to cheat because everything felt so tedious or frustrating. The Avernum "frontier" is a much better fit for the "seamless" system, and the 180° of playing for the Empire is a really interesting twist. The Bestiary and adversaries feel like they have more substance to them (Avernum 4 felt like 90 different flavors of rat, goop, and squiggly worms most of the time), and the item system is even better. More PC graphics, and the combat system is just... so, so sweet. Battle Disciplines? No more "Not enough action points, sucks to be you!!!" situations? Avernum 5 makes Avernum 4 look even worse, like going from a pot pie full of farting lizards to a German chocolate cake garnished with money. Just about the only things I'd take from Avernum 4 over Avernum 5 is how Avernum 5 is unabashedly linear and, well, the ending. Though I haven't tried siding with Dorikas - something to try perhaps. Yeah, Avernum 4 was tough, but Avernum 5? Like the original trilogy, I feel like I'm having fun again.

Further proof of the infinite capacity for things to be worse I suppose... Ah well I've just killed off the Shades and beaten the current mayor of Spire into a fine paste, as per tradition. And... honestly, the end game isn't all that bad if you can get that far. The problem is actually getting there. Ah well. Avernum 5 was a whole lot better - playing through that should be more fun, but I think I'll have to do something different - my usual party composition (no humans) just never felt right for an Empire strike force.

Eh, I was usually complaining more about the gold cap than I was having to spend money on skills... That said, I will give A4+ that their training system does make more sense. If you're THAT skilled at EVERYTHING to be able to teach even the most godlike of adventurer things... Why don't YOU go save/take over the world, huh?

What good points can I come up with for Avernum 4? Let me see here... *Color-shifts lend a greater amount of differentiation between items, be the magic, mundane, or otherwise. *The triumphant return of actual AoE spells, Cloud of Blades not withstanding. *Multiple levels of Avernum give classical regions a new and interesting twist. *First Aid isn’t as useless or pointless. *The Honeycomb is a much more impressive maze now. ... That's all I got at the moment, sadly. As the game goes on, it's becoming less insufferable, but still... I want to like this game. Really. Spiderweb has made me into the nerd I am today, I feel as though I owe it to them. Still, that said... I hate to say this, and I mean I really, really hate to say this, but this is the first and only legitimately bad game Spiderweb has ever put out. Yes, Alorael, you're a far kinder and gentler soul than I am when it comes to this game. Right now I'm in deep enough where I'm absolutely determined to see it through to the end, especially after I took all the time to whittle down and clean up Avadon's item graphics and splice them in. Still, it's a matter of principle now, not necessarily enjoyment. At least the second trilogy goes uphill from here. Avernum 6 had the best system and I think Avernum 5 was the best of the three in my experience.

That... that's it? I know it's only the first reply but... damn that's depressing. I could write a small book on what I think is wrong with A4, but.. surely someone has more positive input?

With the upcoming remakes of Avernum, I've been marching through the series once more in a grand bid to see the whole thing before the... well if you count the original Exile graphics upgrade a revamp, the 4th time this series has been redone. I plowed trough the original series like an atomic tank with rocket boosters piloted by Rambo, and, as always, loved it. I had the kind of great time that makes this next incarnation of Avernum sound as appealing as a bathtub full of lemon meringue pie. I'm really, really looking forward to this. Then I thought, "hey, let's keep going! Avernum IV wasn't that bad after all!" ... I kinda need some support on that theory to keep me from just skipping ahead to Avernum V, or going back to the Geneforge series. So let's hear it - what makes A4 a good game? What can I look forward to that's enough motivation to keep slogging through these Chitrach infested tunnels?

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES All of these things change. The inventory goes window-style in G3 and on, skill point costs start to grow (and are lower initially) in G2 and on, the Parry skill is introduced in G2 and Endurance's effect is augmented in several games, the Stun system changes in G4 (I think), and the balance improves terrifically in G4 and G5. Oh, no need to tell me that (though I'd forgotten the specifics, thank you for the reminder on that front) - I've played through the whole series after all. By the time we get to Geneforge 5, most all these problems evaporate. On top of that, the spells get flasher, the creations mightier, the weapons get cooler, and I've a weakness for Dragons and artificial dragon substitutes like the Drakkon, so there's that too. More classes, concepts, and you can really see the system get polished and progress. That said, seeing Geneforge cast in the mold of Avadon would still be thrilling. Not that I don't like Avadon, mind you, but Geneforge is just so unique it feels all the more iconic to Spiderweb. Also, even after going the extra mile, the end of Avadon felt more like a "PREPARE FOR THE SEQUEL, DUN DUN DAAAAAH!!!" ending than the more well rounded closure of, say, the Avernum series. Except 5, but I still liked 5 the best out of the second trilogy.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Even after the inventory and AP changes made in G4 and G5? What bugs you about it then? Dikiyoba. Well yes, like most things the Geneforge system DOES get better as the series goes on, but right now I'm in the original, and on top of the inventory issues, just the general flow of the game is really, really annoying. Want to use a ranged weapon instead? Okay, here we go, first you have to scroll through the ponderous inventory, select the weapon you want, equip it, and… oops! You ran out of AP, and the Turret shot you for a number so big the patent is still pending. Too bad. Skill point costs never grow, but they also start out dizzyingly high, and the rate at which you gain experience is abysmal. There are no cheap, reliable defensive talents, so my Guardian is a glass canon with extra glass. Slowing effects can lock you down indefinitely, and even the combat system is a pain. Something spies you from a million miles away? OMG, COMBAT MOAD GO GO GO!!! I even run into bugs where I'll get "you can't reach that" errors on targeting adjacent enemies. Most of all, and I really, truly hate to say this, I've nothing good to say about the overall balance either. Yes, Geneforge does get much better with time, and the game I'm on currently was the first of its kind. Still, a lot of this… Neither Exile nor Avernum had any of these fundamental problems, so they just really come off as all the more glaring to me. Still, with all the problems I find with the game, I really, really adore the concept and story. Yeah, Avernum/Exile will always have a nostalgic place of honor what with being my first real taste of the RPG world, but Geneforge is so unique, and so different I can't help but love it. The plot and writing I mean. To that end, I really, really would love to see Geneforge revisited and redesigned. It's a great story with unique ideas that really deserve to be told with the kind of mechanical polish we all know Spiderweb can showcase.

That's if Jeff even sees it as worth the effort. By then it may just be consigned to the ruins of techno history like the original Exile. I'unno. If Nethergate did particularly well then maybe, but I could never get much into it. I'd rather Geneforge get the revision treatment myself - I absolutely love the concept and idea, but the game system itself annoys me like no other Spiderweb title.

Eh, Avernum/Exile make allusions to magic that is more "practical" that were too "needs more explosions" for your party to be buggered with, and Exile even had a number of spells that would fit into that category I think (Scrying, manna spells, Flight, invisibility, a few others...). Yeah... as much as I hate to admit it, the high, very "classical" magic of Harry Potter does have a lot of parallels with Avernum/Exile's also very classical magic system. Except, you know, loaded with corny pseudo Latin.

I unno... I enjoyed having a Dark Wyrm in mine. Summoning a small army of slithering Death Stars was always good fun.

Yeah, I originally looked through that and found it inspiring to the point of wanting the actual physical definitions, but it was completely useless in actually obtaining them. Thanks though.

I'm looking for the descriptions of any of the Artifacts from Exile - anything interesting, from Demonslayer to the Black Halberd, Scrioth(flamespitting sword held by Motrax) to the Death Lance (Killspitting spear owned by Athron), mainstream to the obscure. Unfortunately Avernum dropped the unique descriptions of these mighty and maybe not so mighty artifacts, so I have to turn to Exile (and the people still armed with registered copies) to get them. Any help would be much appreciated.

For the purposes of this discussion I'm personally inclined to incorporate as broad a definition of "Wizard" as possible. Relegating descriptions to a very narrow and finite purview would disqualify too many interesting characters. Besides, the definitions aren't generally as forged in steel in Avernum. Witch, mage, wizard, shaper, warlock, Arch-incantrix... In the end, you're either using arcane magic, priest/divine magic, or both. Some are necromancers like that goober in the Northpoint Lighthouse on Bigail; some are demonologists like Garzahd, Linda, and... I guess you could call Solberg a Demonologist given his anti-demon expertise; pyromancers like Erika; angrymancers like Rentar; and a whole host of other disciplinary specialties. Whatever their magic of choice, they're all wizards in the end.

... Honestly, I dunno why, but I'm having a hard time picking out a favorite Geneforge. Unlike Avernum, I've not played through them a GAZILLION times (okay, well maybe five) and they just don't stick with me. For SOME reason I couldn't even be buggered to finished the last Geneforge. I don't get it, I don't know why, but... it just didn't click with me. I... guess the prospect of going around and killing the High Shaperate just didn't thrill me maybe? I'unno... I love the quirky uniqueness that is Geneforge. Really, I'd probably enjoy it more now that I've since learned to play since Geneforge 1, where I was pantsifyingly frustrated at the end game. Too attached to my first shaping doodles to smush them back into the play-doh jar of creation to make the more advanced and powerful creations...

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba No. Jeff said no more Blades games. BoA took too long to make and didn't sell well. (Besides, if Jeff has trouble with getting enough graphics for his recent games, then scenario designers would have even more difficulty. That's on top of the over-complicated coding that BoA had and any future Blades would therefore also have. It would be impractical, to say the least.) Dikiyoba. Can't say I'm particularly surprised. I personally was NEVER able to get into BoA all that much. Looking at the disparity of content between BoA and BoE, it's crystal clear I wasn't the only one. I can sort of see why, I suppose... From a graphics standpoint, Avernum is in a whole other class of complexity compared to Exile. There you just needed 2 graphics for every monster. Avernum demands 10 minimum, up to 22 for each monster if you're going to make every facing unique and give the creature sitting and "town" graphics. Terrain, walls, floors, and placeables, demands close adherence to templates to fit the isometric design, and that can bugger off, and the whole thing can just be plain tedious. That's without even looking at the coding and design of an Avernum scenario, something I could never be bothered to do either... Originally Posted By: Erasmus Originally Posted By: FnordCola "if ain't broke, don't fix it" . Oh, but it is broken, so very broken (and not graphic-wise)... Yeah. When a Mac focused developer's flagship series won't fly on the latest and greatest Mac platform, there's a problem... The mechanics, graphics, and front end of Avernum's just fine in my nostalgia drenched opinion, but it's a sports car with a frozen engine at this stage.

Avernum's draw is the writing and detail, and like a good bookseries, you'll appreciate it all the more if you start with the first book, chapter one. Don't let the retro-ness scare you, they're all excellent games.

Yeah, Nethergate: Resurrection... I could barely tell the difference between it and the original, if there was even one to be told. Nethergate was the one Spiderweb title I never went out and got for myself, so maybe the difference would have been more noticeable if I'd played more than just the demo of the first iteration. Honestly? I don't know what to expect. Yeah, the LAST time Jeff "remade" a game, AkA Nethergate, the results were less than mind blowing. However, if you go back to the last time he "remade" the EXILE series... There was a rather epic difference between Exile and Avernum, no? I'm honestly hoping this remake is more of that caliber, and, in truth, more a matter of mechanics, features, and additional content rather than putting another half-layer of graphic polish on things ala Geneforge styling, hammering the underlying code to fit with Apple's latest nonsense, and calling it a day. Oh well. I'm excited either way. I love all the original Avernum games, I... Hm. Actually, that raises yet another question - do these remakes ALSO apply to Blades of Avernum eventually?

Originally Posted By: In which a name is changed And that's why science has no place in a magical discussion. Pretty much. I usually tend to assume that magic in a semi-classical setting like Avernum would adhere to the rules of beliefs common to such cultures. Even the more advanced ones, like Ancient Greece/Rome didn't have quite the view/knowledge of the universe we do today. Thus, unless explicitly stated otherwise, I tend to differentiate between solar, lunar, and starlight when it comes to these things.

Has he now? Can't say I'm thrilled. If he's willing to spend the extra money for enough graphics to make things work then alright, but if we end up fighting umteen different flavors of progressively angry rats like in A4... Then again, with the whole iPad issue, I'm seeing why. Avadon is a proven system already compatible, and the larger graphics work better on the tiny tiny medium. It could work, though. Originally Posted By: goblindolf I guess he would be using the A6 engine but he did say outdoors was staying in the trilogy remake so whatever he is using he would be modifying it to add that. As long as this statement proves true, and the investment is made to diversify the bestiary enough, I'll be happy with the remakes. Sure, it might be a detriment that all of Spiderweb's games are starting to look alike, but Avernum is still the original, quintessential indie RPG, even if it does raid Avadon's wardrobe. And... honestly, I'm not totally against graphical color-shifts for some things. Having the Flaming, Oozing, and Icy blade all the appropriate color was nice, for instance. Just don't rely on them is all I ask.

I honestly expect the graphics to be of Blades of Avernum style/quality, maybe a little better. I just don't think Avadon/Geneforge/Avernum 4+ has the library to pull off a proper Avernum game without it turning into a tidal wave of colorshifts and recycling. Don't get me wrong, it's okay to use those techniques to an extent, but if you're going to make Grah-hoth a slightly tinted Haakai and nothing more... Yeah, I'll live without the walking animations. I'unno, the -last- game Spiderweb did this with didn't have much of a graphics upgrade at all I feel (Nethergate), but we'll all just have to see.