alhoon

Specters are totally immune to cold I think, but a cold is effective against most enemies. Wingbolts are good in GF4 but Gazers are IMO better. I think with 2 Wingbolts and 2 Drayks you will be probably able to finish the game although some battles will be tricky (unless you avoid them).

Is it worth it to keep Greta or Alwan around? Dialogue-wise that is, I know they're certainly not as strong as tier 3-4 creations.

In GF4 there are several possible items that increase your Shaping skill. As such, I would say that yes, after getting your "permanents" ready, you don't need to bump up your Shaping skills, better save the skill points to raise intelligence so you can have more essence.

The strategy that got me through GF4 (without much difficulty I may say) is: - At first 3-4 creations that will be replaced with high-tiers - Once the high tiers come around, 3-4 high tiers that I will keep leveling - When needed throw in a few absorbables and use items for blessing (since I would have used my essence on the absorbables). - When one of the absorbables manages to survive and levels, and essence permits, adopt it as permanent. - Don't give stat boosts to permanent creations, only to absorbables that will not be around for more than 2-3 fights. - At high levels, that I had the essence to spare, I went for Mosapocalypse: Stand in the end of the map \ essence pool and make 3 high-tier expendables. Kyshaaks work well. Repeat as needed. Keep 10-12 essence pods. (<=== didn't really need them by the end, but I wanted them to be safe). PS. Whatever you do, avoid spoilers for GF4 mainly and GF5 too. There are amazing surprises there. Resist the temptation to use guides, check the script and threads by old timers here. By the time the weekend ends you'll be done with GF4 anyway. It is worth waiting.

So... any insight on that? Since the Serviles created by Shapers in GF4 were "shortly" able to function as full spies and a newly made Drayk can fight the moment it pops out of the vat\Shaper\mine, I would say that yes, you probably can have discussions with them within the day.

Nope, because they raise with levels. Depending on the Geneforge game you play your creations level at different rate, but they all level. Mind you, it may be tempting to put 1 dot in a low-level creation's strength now that I know it raises damage AND to hit. After all, for Vlish it's like 2 essence, just two essence for a +1 str. But then again, that 2 essence is two cures or war blessing and I usually cut it quite low with my essence at low levels, leaving 10-15 available so that 2 essence would actually be felt. Later on? Well later on I have high tier creations and upgrading them costs a ton.

I can confirm that the boats are not to my liking either. Thankfully so far the islands are isolated and I don't need to do much hoping around. I have realized that pretty quickly through the first game I played, but indeed the total lack of fluff is disappointing in such an interesting world. I realize though that in the first games at least the world was not fully developed in the author's mind so questions as "how big is Terrestia" could not be answered. Size analysis (for those that are interested): Since it takes "weeks" to go from the Drypeaks to the Citadel, it takes "weeks" to cross the GF5 map from east to west. A week on foot is about 200 miles. Now, to go to the citadel we don't go straight, but we go through Kratoa-Kell. Adding in a few delays, I would say that width of the western continent is between 300-600 miles. However, that would make Terrestia problematically large in size (250K-750K sq.miles). The smallest estimate of that, is about the size of modern France... that supported 18-20 million people in the Middle ages, without the use of Ornks, genetically modified crops or a good understanding of botany and biology. Even with half Medieval France's population density (despite ornks etc), we end up with a lowest estimation of 10 million. Which is... very high. On the other end of the spectrum, we have GF5, that requires just 2 days to go from Gazaki-Uss to the Citadel. Even if we assume break-neck pace and "2.5 days", it would make it 80-90 miles from Drypeaks to the Citadel which could lead to the western continent being just 50-100 miles wide. Now, we end up with a tiny Terrestia (7K - 30K sq.miles). We're on the other hand of the spectrum here. While it is theoretically possible, a place with as much geographical diversity as Terrestia (woods, mountains marshes, desert) that small would be quite peculiar. Population-wise though, that scale is closer to my expectations (500K to a Million people).

@Triumph Hmm? Litalia was trying to kill him, I doubt he went in Rebel-held lands after Burnwood was secured. Litalia was saying she didn't have the resources to go after the Trakovites when she told me to go kill that Drayk that in my finale, saved the world. But after Burnwood was secured, she could. And if there's one thing Litalia is good at, is killing people. So... I guess the difficult choices don't stop coming. I want to be a rebel and so far I have found no reason other than "canisters" after I saw what they did to Master Hoge. However, GF4 had difficult choices too IMO, both gameplay and story-wise. Giving Monarch's papers to the Shapers was the easiest thing, but still not easy. There was often the "right" choice and the "easier\pays-better choice". And mind you sir, I was not a double agent. I was a 100% Rebel. That turned Trakovite at the last moment.

Where is he during GF5?

I like 3 so far personally. Frankly, I don't want to place it last. But it is. Not because it's bad, but because the others are better. I still like though a lot. It goes like this for me so far: 4>5>2>3. But not having finished 3, I can't be sure. Frankly I would say it's 2=3 so far. Not that they are equal, but GF2 does some things better than GF3 and some things GF3 (so far) does better than GF2. At least I didn't have to chug through 2 areas chocked full of mines. But there are no good factions in GF3 (actually there are just 2 factions). The Rebels are... quite bad. I would say they are worse than the GF2 Takers. Makes sense in a way that the few surviving Takers were further radicalized.

Oh come on! I said I wanted to avoid it. The above makes it harder. You people certainly know how to build up hype. How long till it gets repolished? 2 years? 1 1/2 ?

True, that's a matter of opinion. Not sure about GF5 compared to GF4 for example. GF4 had IMO better level design. GF5 had a bit too much grinding to get the nice stuff for artifacts IMO and did lack from the sense of impeding doom that GF4 had. Things that some posters don't like, like zones within zones within zones felt fine for me. Even the grindy zones, like the three zones in Monarch's that you could not clear without taking out the mad creator (or Monarch) had a reason to be grindy. ... or it could be that I was new to GForge and I haven't found that forum yet, so nobody to tell me "don't bump up the str and dex of you favorite Drayk mate, whatever you do, it won't be better than a Drakon despite the levels he had gained." Really hard decision to kill my Drayk for a Drakon. Postponed it for long. That Drayk had saved my hide several times. I still vaguely remember sitting there and thinking "Can I do it?". I even fed my Drayk a bit of meat before killing him even though he was at full health. I made the drakon, loaded back. Fought. Loaded and fought with the Drakon. In the end... Drakon. I have a save called "Still Drayks" in GF4. It's a save about 6 hours before the end game save.

Oh, I agree that GF2 has great freedom. That's one of the reasons I gave for it not having enough (I should have said "timely in my exploration") information: However, that freedom comes at a cost: it makes it IMO a very hard place to begin with for a newcomer. But there are ways that come to mind that could have made non-linear GF2 easier for the newcomer, like including the information on multiple locations with a counter. The game does it a couple of times I think. The note about "You're going canister mad" triggers in two towns at least. Could have done that with other things. By the time I was discussing with Drayks about Drakons (read the hilarious comment in my sig) I have met some in the Barzites. There could have been someone there, like the idiot that told me "open this vat, there's something called a rot inside. Upgrade of the Alphas. Kill it" and then I opened the vat and the Rot killed me before I managed to blink... that would tell me "We hope Rots will fare good against the Drakons of the Takers. Drakons are powerful, very headstrong and arrogant variants of the Drayks but we keep them in a short leash". All I was told about Drakons from the Barzites is that they plan to make thousands of them to defeat the Shapers. Also, is this: "The later GF games are more a reflection of Jeff's evolving design sensibilities different than this "a matter of having more refined or "professional" writing" ? In any case when I said the later games seem more professional I also mean more polished, what the world is more solidly structured and better level design. All in all the world is very interesting but according to my tastes there is maddening little info about it. Yes, I would like to have a rough number describing how large Terrestia is. How many people in a province. How many Shapers per million Outsiders. A range of how many Creations per Shaper (40 is a ridiculously high limit according to Alwan's Shaper but attainable). What color are Astoria's hair. How long is a Gazer's natural lifespan. Do Rots just rot away and die within a few years like the Unbound? (I thought I would get both of these answers in GF2). I enjoyed GF2 very much, and the different factions were very refreshing. But later GF games were IMO better designed (although not sure if they are better) and easier to follow. Different in emphasis, perhaps. But it is what it is. You certainly defend them a lot. About the heresy part of the "boring" demo... I was amazed that I got a game where I could make my own party. Literally make my own party. No need to roll for stats either; you build your party makes with them. My decision to go for GF4 instead for GF3 as a friend suggested was based on "GF4 is more modern and complete" suggestion I got. And it may be first love, but GF4 is IMO the best Geneforge game.

That's simply not the case. I don't ask other people to invest several hours in a game, I ask if someone that has played it is interested in spending a few minutes answering. You clearly stated you are not and that's perfectly fine. Others may be. I am not asking you, I am asking the generic person that may see that question a week from now. You are posting "I am not going to answer you" thrice now in an 8 hour period. But I am not asking you, let alone "demand" an answer as if I have any rights on your free time. All in all, I asked 8 hours ago a simple enough question. You politely answered that I could find the answer in GF1. I said that I am not interested in that approach... and then I've been defending my view since.

Regardless of their creature type (no creation) but still game-y controlled like and behaving like creations... to increase Greta's hit chance, I have to increase her strength, right? PS. items that increase str and con etc for creations in your party also add it to humans in your party, at least in later games. The description should be saying "Party members" admittedly, but compared that dexterity doesn't add to hit chance the misnaming of "party members" to "creations" isn't a big one.

I didn't insult the games, I like the GF series. But of course it is not your job to address my questions. But to set the record straight: I like the GF series very much, they are among the best games I've played in the past years, hence I'm engaged in them. And yet, while I am sure the story of GF1 would be nice and rewarding, I prefer to wait a couple of years for a better version before diving in, because of some flaws in the game system. While I certainly find the origin of the disruption spells and other pieces of lore interesting and all, it's not that important to spoil my future GF1 experience over it. I would also like to say that I have not argued with whatever answer I was given, at least recently. I realize you may have grown tired of answering my questions though and I respect it. I just hope someone isn't.

Regardless on my above post on why I prefer the delivery system of the later games and part of the reasons I consider them more "professional" ... the question about the disruption still stands. I understand if you want to keep your stance of "You own the game! Play it and find out" but perhaps someone else would indulge me.

Yeah, I would much much prefer a book there in the lab that had a paragraph about the Rots and how they think and how their internal organs are small etc like we see in the load cards + "The new Variety of Rotgroth, the Rotdhizon can usually beat two alphas together!". Nim: Well, 7 words is not what I had in mind. At least with the Rotdhizon, I got the text "The mad variety you will see there... that's the standard variety unfortunately, not one that got rogue, that's how willful they are". I got the mating rituals for the Gazers in not one, but two games. Triumph: Yeap, I got the Gazer part from discussing with the Two Gazers that are discussable. I didn't see anyone telling me they're mad. Drakons are also kinda-explained when you meet the Takers. By that time though, I had seen like 10 Drakons and no dialogue option of "Hey, Barzahl, a little down the corridor there's a big reptile. What is this?" or something. Also, the first time I heard the word "Eyebeast" was "there's an Eyebeast in there, go calm it". Same with Drayks and Alphas. By the time I got a line on Alphas being hard to control (not what they are), I had encountered 5-6 alphas. By the time I encounter an Alpha in GF3, I got a full page on it. Same on GF5. A n00b that starts in GF3-5, gets some information on what an Alpha is when he or she encounters it. If I didn't know what an Alpha is when I found an Alpha or Drayk or Glaahk in GF2, I would say "Wait, what's that reddish\greenish thing?" Same with Clawbugs and Vlish I think. That's fine since GF2 is a sequel, but it certainly a less "stand-alone" one than GF3-5 ones are. You will have a harder time understanding the world IMO if you start at GF2 than if you start at GF3, GF4, or GF5. As Slarty mentioned, the way GF2 chooses to present the information is to throw a big reddish humanoid at you that has the name alpha on it and lots of hp. Or you go in a cave and a strange green reptile starts talking to you and you call it Drayk. My apologies, but that's just sloppy presentation because the player is automatically assumed to know what a Drayk \ Alpha is. In GF3-5 that's not the case. Except of course with Wingbolts and Kyshaaks that are explained by the infiltrators near the freaking end of GF4 and if you sit there and chat them up. As for Gazers, rots or Drakons, I didn't expect a treaty, no. But I expected to see about 1/5th of what I saw about serviles (in later games that Servile society isn't as prominent). I understand that early GF games are like "first love" for you my friends, but IMO they lack the professionalism of the later series. I am not saying GF2 is bad, I'm saying it gives a less robust and well-rounded explanation of the world, and presumes more things are known from GF1, unlike the later games that tend to ease you softer into things.

Well, my question on the disruption and how it works still stands, if one wants to answer it. As far as I got with GF2, it had less world-explaining than other GF games I've played. Even new things introduced in GF2 like Rots, and Gazers barely get an explanation from what I saw. In GF4, Litalia (and others) tell me Gazers are quite crazy. In GF2 nobody mentions it. They do seem kinda cookoo if you ask me but nobody mentions it. Drakons... their honor system and culture is barely touched at compared with GF4-5. Sure I am told somewhere once that it's "survival of the fittest" there but that's it mostly. More examples come to mind. Enough to make me surprised to see one saying GF2 was trying to explain things. With all the factions and what was going on in GF2, it would be very hard to delve into explanations of what a Battla Alpha is or a Cryodrayk. They were kinda thrown there. From what I've seen so far, GF3 is the one that explains stuff the most.

Is it explained anywhere else? It seems kinda strange that it would be explained only in the first game when some things are repeated twice in the same game. GF5 was supposed to be self-contained for example, without requiring any prior GF knowledge. Thinking of it, Rawal in the end of the Tutorial does use disruption to kill everything. Not sure if that was an actual disruption spell though or it was supposed to be generic magic that just Rawal used against the creations.

Eh... I'll wait for the remake of GF1. The various limitations GF2 had + the inventory screen make me reluctant to play the earlier games. It was GF2 story that made me soldier on despite the many annoyances. Also, I've probably missed stuff from GF2 too since I was kinda rushing through the game.

OK, please don't start laughing. I want to ask about the "disruption" damage found in wands. First, I very recently discovered the existence of a type of damage that hits creations unmitigated and not anyone else and that by accident as I tried to use a discipline wand on a non-creation. Having read the wand deals a lot of damage (I don't) I expected some effect. The person was immune. Then I tried on a creation and it zapped it. There is probably an explanation on such wands somewhere in the series but I've either missed it or forgot about it completely. Fact is, I don't know anything about this weird, awesome and dangerous damage type. First, it is peculiar it is on a wand. Is disruptive damage something a non-shaper can deal with non-Shapey magic? That would be quite bizarre and very dangerous. Yet, wands are made mostly by Outsider mages. Second... why only in wands? Shouldn't there be a spell about it? Perhaps in healing (since I assume disruption it's Shaping) or even battle magic? It would make a lot of things easier...

Really? Like what? The Original poster asked for builds, so discussing builds and strategies is certainly on topic aside of interesting.

I thought it was fixed in GF4 steam game as well?

Playing solo? In most\all GF games I've seen there are things that raise your Shaping a bit that come in about early mid-game. Enough to make tier 3 creations in GF4-5. Even if you buy just a couple of points of int (or get an item) you would have enough essence by level 15-20 to have at least a solid tier 2 creation, vlish for ranged combat, clawbug for the poison, with a lot of essence to spare for your spells. So... while I haven't tried it, I guess an agent or infiltrator could spare the essence to have a trusty Vlish or clawbug with them permanently. I also think the Agents\Infiltrators would have to buy up their int at the early or mid-game to have energy for their spells, but never having played one I don't know. As for Serviles... Meh. Fighting first, Shaping last. The complete opposite of what I like. My preferences are Shaping > Magic > fighting. Of course, you can do a good deal of shaping without being top in Shaping, so Sorceress (that I haven't played) would also be possible for me. However, I frankly prefer my creations to do the heavy lifting and my character doing the leadership \ mechanics stuff, although I go Leadership > mechanics. I find it strange that Agents don't start a bit better than the rest in Leadership \ mechanics though. They're supposed to be the diplomats and saboteurs. They start with 2/2 while Shapers start with 1/2 and warriors with 3/2. Since warriors get 3/2, the I think Agents should have started with 2/3 or even 3/3