Jump to content


GF2 Party Member Question


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic
torchkeeper torchkeeper

New Arrival

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,781
  • 9 posts

Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:06 AM #1 GF2 Party Member Question

I finished Geneforge 1 as a shaper, using only three creations with me, since they apparently split the XP with the PC, and was thinking of going the same route with Geneforge 2. I currently use two creations with me and am currently in the Magus Complex. I've met Xander who is willing to join the party. Do joinable party members count towards the XP split as well? Also, he's at level 18 when he joins, while my character is only level 16 at the moment. So I'm wondering if it will affect how much XP I gain as well.

At the moment I'm thinking I'll stick with three creations once I get enough essence, since I prefer being able to control my party's actions in combat, but if joinable party members don't affect XP, or at least don't cost any more than using a creation, it might be a worthwhile trade-off.

Randomizer Randomizer

Tormented Battle Mage

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 4,341
  • 15,914 posts

Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:14 AM #2 GF2 Party Member Question

The joinable party members are usually only around for a few zones so it doesn't really matter. Even using more creations while lowering your level does mean more firepower and increased survivability. In the long run it only means two or at most three levels over the entire game. Shapers work best with lots of creations.

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. It just gets in the way. :)
"I don't know how we can ever repay you!" - Rescued damsel in distress
"Oh, I'm sure we can think of something .... How much gold do you have?" - "Hero"

"We're all screwed if Cthulhu shows up. Try to enjoy life in the meantime." - Adam Rawnsley

wackypanda wackypanda

Soldier

  • Member
    • Member ID: 8,460
  • 110 posts

Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:30 PM #3 GF2 Party Member Question

In G2, joinable party members past the Secret Tunnel can be kept around for the entire game if they don't suicide themselves. It's the later games where they come and go. :p

Do creations (and party members) with a higher level than the PC gain experience based on the PC's level, or their own?

Lilith Lilith

in before the apocalypse

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 669
  • 19,845 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, Australia

Posted 18 March 2017 - 03:42 AM #4 GF2 Party Member Question

View Postwackypanda, on 17 March 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

In G2, joinable party members past the Secret Tunnel can be kept around for the entire game if they don't suicide themselves. It's the later games where they come and go. :p

Do creations (and party members) with a higher level than the PC gain experience based on the PC's level, or their own?

Creations and allies always gain experience in lockstep with the player character, regardless of their relative levels. If you gain 25 XP, all your creations gain 25 XP.

torchkeeper torchkeeper

New Arrival

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,781
  • 9 posts

Posted 26 March 2017 - 01:01 PM #5 GF2 Party Member Question

Thanks for the replies. I'll stick with 3 creations for now then so I don't lose too much XP.

What about Geneforge 3. Worth having NPCs join the party as a shaper or should I stick to creations? Basically want to know if NPCs and creations have anything clearly going in favor of them, or if it's just down to personal preference.

Edit: Didn't even realize that it's alread been 10 days since I created this topic.

Randomizer Randomizer

Tormented Battle Mage

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 4,341
  • 15,914 posts

Posted 26 March 2017 - 02:48 PM #6 GF2 Party Member Question

GF3 NPCs are better in that they have decent attacks and you get them early. Just past the halfway point in the game you are going to lose one anyway because of ideology.

Some creations are better and can be gotten early if you rush to get there. Vlish make great helpers.
"I don't know how we can ever repay you!" - Rescued damsel in distress
"Oh, I'm sure we can think of something .... How much gold do you have?" - "Hero"

"We're all screwed if Cthulhu shows up. Try to enjoy life in the meantime." - Adam Rawnsley

Triumph Triumph

Wrapped in Light

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 6,248
  • 3,015 posts

Posted 26 March 2017 - 08:01 PM #7 GF2 Party Member Question

G3 doesn't have nearly as many NPCs as G2 did. There are just two main ones. As Randomizer said, about two thirds of the way through the game, one of those will definitely leave you no matter what. Although you can take whichever one stays with you all the way through the game, they are vastly weaker than creations. Creations in G3 - Vlish specifically - are quite strong and you'll get way more power of regular creations than either of the two NPCs. You can tote the NPC along if you want to (and there's occasionally interesting dialogue associated with them), but from a strict powergaming / optimization standpoint, they aren't worthwhile.

"Dikiyoba didn't know what to say for your negatives, Triumph. Dikiyoba supposes you must just be that awesome." - Dikiyoba
"Triumph == Santa Claus? This explains... nothing." - Dintiradan
"Per usual, Triumph said it better." - Slarty


Randomizer Randomizer

Tormented Battle Mage

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 4,341
  • 15,914 posts

Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:52 PM #8 GF2 Party Member Question

They don't need essence to use.  :)
"I don't know how we can ever repay you!" - Rescued damsel in distress
"Oh, I'm sure we can think of something .... How much gold do you have?" - "Hero"

"We're all screwed if Cthulhu shows up. Try to enjoy life in the meantime." - Adam Rawnsley

Gameman112358 Gameman112358

Mercenary

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,737
  • 81 posts

Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:10 PM #9 GF2 Party Member Question

And they get stat boosts for free once they level up (Those two extra skill points you get to spend for a creation each time they level up don't cost essence). You can't level up creations the same way you can with NPCs, simply because it takes a bunch of essence to do so, so joinable NPCs still got their uses. And GF3's joinable NPCs are better than most of the other ones; they've got their own dialogue, and they have upgrades for each one, meaning they can scale relatively well in the late game (Though one of them really needs to have a ranged attack added in to be worth it; one of them can spray Essence Orbs everywhere late game, the other... gets a sword that can inflict acid damage. Wooooooo. So exciting... /s).

I do wish I knew the exact way Jeff was able to give NPC companions upgrades to their abilities, but I found workarounds to do that for later games. :)

Agitproprioception Agitproprioception

The Demon of Good Taste

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 223
  • 13,778 posts

Posted 27 March 2017 - 02:32 AM #10 GF2 Party Member Question

It's true that the G3 NPCs do get that free skill point bonus.  Unfortunately, it doesn't matter.  Levelling up creation/NPC skills is an incredibly weak mechanic in every Geneforge game -- it seems like it should be useful, but the gains are tiny compared to base stats (especially at higher levels) and make much less of a difference than having a better attack die or resistances to begin with.

G3 has some of the most favorable shaping mechanics in the series.  Importantly, creations gain the same proportion of experience you do regardless of what level they are.  Every level up increases HP and SP multipliers, and every 2 levels increases all 4 base stats.  (You'll note this actually means HP and SP rise quadratically with level.)

This means that if you make a very high level creation early, it will keep gaining numerous levels throughout the game.  Vlish are available early and are an obscenely good value in G3.  The NPCs are also available early and are not bad (Greta in particular, as Gamerman notes) but they start at a much lower level than your early creations can, if you rush one shaping skill (hint: Magic Shaping for Artila and then Vlish).  And that means they will always be at a much lower level.  By the time you reach the 40's and 50's, a few stat points no longer makes a big difference, but 10-15 levels worth of them definitely does.
"I, for one, prefer to believe that the forums are dead and that Lilith, Slarty, and I are all ghosts haunting the forum." -- Triumph

"I think we all have days where we feel like a Displacer Iguana." -- Slarty

torchkeeper torchkeeper

New Arrival

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,781
  • 9 posts

Posted 27 March 2017 - 04:49 AM #11 GF2 Party Member Question

Not much of a powergamer, so as long as it's viable to finish the game with them, I'll consider trying out the NPCs and seeing how it goes. Do you control them, or do they act on their own?

Never tried using a vlish. Might give one a shot this time. Usually have a Cryoa and Artila for the low essence cost (since I like to keep a lot of free essence for blessing and healing magic), and a Battle Beta for the muscle, but if boosting isn't going to be viable in GF3, I might have to look to higher tier creations. I don't even know if boosting is actually worth it in GF2, but I'm sticking with that for the time being. Stronger creations seem to cost way too much, and I have 15 INT.

idonotexist42 idonotexist42

Mercenary

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,409
  • 94 posts

Posted 27 March 2017 - 07:27 AM #12 GF2 Party Member Question

And that's why I heavily buffed Alwan and Greta in the G3 scripts. They were pretty pathetic to start with. They're still a little meh in the later parts of the game because I didn't want to make them too OP in the beginning of the game

Triumph Triumph

Wrapped in Light

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 6,248
  • 3,015 posts

Posted 27 March 2017 - 01:34 PM #13 GF2 Party Member Question

Vlish are where it's at in G3. Rush to reach the second island as quickly as possible, hoarding up your skill points along the way, and learn to shape Vlish, then throw all your points into Magic Shaping and intelligence in such a way that you can immediately conjure up a full seven Vlish, and then lead your army through the rest of the game. No joke, this is a serious, viable strategy. In the short term, you'll be a little short on essence for spellcasting, but that will work itself out soon. Meanwhile, your army will earn experience for the rest of the game and you'll never need to invest essence in your creations or in shaping skills ever again.

"Dikiyoba didn't know what to say for your negatives, Triumph. Dikiyoba supposes you must just be that awesome." - Dikiyoba
"Triumph == Santa Claus? This explains... nothing." - Dintiradan
"Per usual, Triumph said it better." - Slarty


Agitproprioception Agitproprioception

The Demon of Good Taste

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 223
  • 13,778 posts

Posted 27 March 2017 - 03:07 PM #14 GF2 Party Member Question

More Magic shaping, you can skimp on Intelligence -- just enough for 4-5 Vlish, which isn't much.  You get more Essence with levels too, so you don't need to have enough for 7 vlish as soon as you unlock Vlish; if postponing 1 Vlish for a level or two will get you an extra level on all your other Vlish, this is worth it.

Keep in mind that you DO NOT need to pay for the 2 points of Int (to control your Vlish) right away -- this can help get more Vlish with less essence.

Waiting on a few of them is especially useful, IIRC, because Terror Vlish comes with 6 more levels than Vlish and carry a very unique poison-elemental missile attack -- nice for resistant enemies -- so I often grab 2 more points of Vlish and use 2 spots for those.  As long as you get them within 8 levels of when you first make Vlish, they'll be at the same or higher level (and you can stretch that further if you pump Magic Shaping further :D)
"I, for one, prefer to believe that the forums are dead and that Lilith, Slarty, and I are all ghosts haunting the forum." -- Triumph

"I think we all have days where we feel like a Displacer Iguana." -- Slarty

torchkeeper torchkeeper

New Arrival

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,781
  • 9 posts

Posted 28 March 2017 - 06:52 AM #15 GF2 Party Member Question

Finsihed Geneforge 2 with that party. Couldn't tackle Gazak-Uss, but cleared every other area, getting an ending I'm satisfied with (Awakened, low canister use).

Just started Geneforge 3. So far I've been keeping both NPCs and a Fyora with me. And I've just about done everything I can on the first island (apart from the secondary tests in the academy). I've heard that canister use can affect gameplay here. I'm not too worried about pissing off the Shapers in the ending, but will it affect my conversations with NPCs and the way I act (my humanity, so to speak)? I'm guessing if I want to get the best creations, like the second tier Vlish, I'll have to use canisters, but I don't want to use them if I don't have to.

Agitproprioception Agitproprioception

The Demon of Good Taste

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 223
  • 13,778 posts

Posted 28 March 2017 - 11:23 AM #16 GF2 Party Member Question

Vlish are much better in G3 than they are in G2, because almost every other character in the game (including the PC) had its attacks weakened in between games, but Vlish didn't.
"I, for one, prefer to believe that the forums are dead and that Lilith, Slarty, and I are all ghosts haunting the forum." -- Triumph

"I think we all have days where we feel like a Displacer Iguana." -- Slarty

torchkeeper torchkeeper

New Arrival

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,781
  • 9 posts

Posted 28 March 2017 - 12:27 PM #17 GF2 Party Member Question

Will I need canisters to get 3 points in Vlish?

Agitproprioception Agitproprioception

The Demon of Good Taste

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 223
  • 13,778 posts

Posted 28 March 2017 - 01:29 PM #18 GF2 Party Member Question

I think you'll need 1 canister for that.  However, canister use has very little impact on text/dialogue and no actual impact on gameplay or your endings unless you use quite a few.  I don't remember the exact number in G3, but I think you can safely use at least 6 in any of the Geneforges.
"I, for one, prefer to believe that the forums are dead and that Lilith, Slarty, and I are all ghosts haunting the forum." -- Triumph

"I think we all have days where we feel like a Displacer Iguana." -- Slarty

torchkeeper torchkeeper

New Arrival

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,781
  • 9 posts

Posted 28 March 2017 - 03:21 PM #19 GF2 Party Member Question

Ah good to know. I'll save my canister use for creations then.

Nim Nim

Shaman

  • Member
    • Member ID: 6,802
  • 279 posts

Posted 28 March 2017 - 04:56 PM #20 GF2 Party Member Question

Rampant canister use only matters if you go rebel and then really only in one very late instance (a certain cave).

Triumph Triumph

Wrapped in Light

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 6,248
  • 3,015 posts

Posted 29 March 2017 - 05:56 AM #21 GF2 Party Member Question

Yes, from my investigations of G3's scripts, it appears that six is the number of canisters you can safely use in G3. More than that, and a number of encounters will change (especially in the latter part of the game and mostly involving insignificant but flavorful dialogue changes, but also some that result in fights).

"Dikiyoba didn't know what to say for your negatives, Triumph. Dikiyoba supposes you must just be that awesome." - Dikiyoba
"Triumph == Santa Claus? This explains... nothing." - Dintiradan
"Per usual, Triumph said it better." - Slarty


torchkeeper torchkeeper

New Arrival

  • Member
    • Member ID: 18,781
  • 9 posts

Posted 29 March 2017 - 11:34 AM #22 GF2 Party Member Question

I was going to say, that means canister use would be a big deal then, since I was most likely going to join the rebels, since I thought they'd be the equivalent of the Awakened from the previous games, but
Spoiler

Without any spoilers, would using more than 6 canisters still make a difference in-game at this point?[/spoiler]

Also, is the skill training the same as in G2, where you can only train skills up to 2 points, or is it 2 more points from whatever you have? Because I found the Vlish canister, but I don't want to use it if it means I can only train one more point with a trainer.

Nim Nim

Shaman

  • Member
    • Member ID: 6,802
  • 279 posts

Posted 29 March 2017 - 12:03 PM #23 GF2 Party Member Question

You didn't lock yourself into any side yet no worries.

View Posttorchkeeper, on 29 March 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

Also, is the skill training the same as in G2, where you can only train skills up to 2 points, or is it 2 more points from whatever you have, because I found the Vlish canister, but I don't want to use it if it means I can only train one more point with a trainer.
Thankfully that was only a thing in G2. You can safely use books and canisters from G3 onwards without compromising training.

Triumph Triumph

Wrapped in Light

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 6,248
  • 3,015 posts

Posted 29 March 2017 - 01:31 PM #24 GF2 Party Member Question

In G3, the one and only thing that determines whether you are on the side of the Shapers or the Rebels in the endgame involves something on the fourth island of the game. How you resolve the conflict on the earlier islands can affect how you are viewed in the ending and it affects whether either of the totally optional NPC companions will stick with you the rest of the game. Separate from any of the above, you have choices to say nice things or mean things about serviles. This affects which people give you quests and who is willing to train you.

Short answer: 1. you are not at all locked in to a faction yet, and 2. whether you choose to use more than six canisters will still make a difference in your game.

"Dikiyoba didn't know what to say for your negatives, Triumph. Dikiyoba supposes you must just be that awesome." - Dikiyoba
"Triumph == Santa Claus? This explains... nothing." - Dintiradan
"Per usual, Triumph said it better." - Slarty


Nim Nim

Shaman

  • Member
    • Member ID: 6,802
  • 279 posts

Posted 29 March 2017 - 03:11 PM #25 GF2 Party Member Question

View PostTriumph, on 29 March 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

In G3, the one and only thing that determines whether you are on the side of the Shapers or the Rebels in the endgame involves something on the fourth island of the game.
If you go rebel on Dhonal you are locked in. Only going shaper has you get another chance on island 4 to turn rebel. That seems to be the intended way.
Shenanigans involving killing/not killing Mr K contrary to your chosen faction are clearly not handled well by the game ( you said so yourself in the ending topic "The game doesn't seem to have been designed for my loophole exploitation, muddling the ending.")

Triumph Triumph

Wrapped in Light

  • Global Moderator
    • Member ID: 6,248
  • 3,015 posts

Posted 29 March 2017 - 05:57 PM #26 GF2 Party Member Question

Incorrect. I've tried it. You can go Rebel for the big choice at the end of Dhonal's Isle, then side with the Shapers for Gull Island, and you'll go into the Shaper endgame on the last island. If you were locked in by helping the rebels on the third island, you wouldn't be able to work with the Shapers on the fourth and fifth islands.

I don't know what Jeff's intent was. G3 is actually weird among the Geneforge games for never offering any one obvious moment of choice to pick your alignment. You just show up on fifth island and you're on one side or the other. It may well be that Jeff expected folks would have made their choice through their gameplay actions, but there's no chose-your-faction moment like G1, 2, and 5 have. G4 is similar in terms of have more ambiguity about which side you're really one (but, then, the a huge theme of the game is that your double-agent status), though my recollection is that it was still more clear than G3 when you reached a point of no return.

"Dikiyoba didn't know what to say for your negatives, Triumph. Dikiyoba supposes you must just be that awesome." - Dikiyoba
"Triumph == Santa Claus? This explains... nothing." - Dintiradan
"Per usual, Triumph said it better." - Slarty





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users