GF2-I: Difficulty settings

[alhoon]

Thanks to some good advice here my somewhat-optimized Shaper is... too powerful. I didn't do anything right, and I miss some points and quests. I try to use few cannisters, planning to end with 5-6 canisters total. 

I have mentioned in the past that it would be better, IMO, if we leveled up at 1700 XP not, 1400 but so far I have seen no way around it. 

 

Thus, the reasonable thing to do at this point is simply put to up the difficulty. I finished O-GF2 on easy and I had less of an easy time than I have on normal this time around. I will be switching difficulty from Normal to Veteran as needed and back to normal. I.e. I won't finish the entire rest of the game on Veteran, just going back and forth. I want some challenge but not TOO MUCH of a challenge.  

 

I was looking at the manual for what "Veteran" Difficulty changes and I see very little concrete info. 

I see:

 - "On Veteran or Torment difficulty, your spells and abilities can harm friendly targets. If you grow unhappy with the difficulty you have selected, you can change it later on using the Settings screen. "  <== the Friendly fire is why I avoid veteran, BTW. 

- I have read here in several places that on veteran the enemies start to use their special abilities <==which is the reason I was tempted to use Veteran! 

- I have switched to Veteran and I see a mild increase on hp of the enemies. 

- In previous games, higher difficulty gave a bit more attack bonus to the enemies. 

 

So, I wonder: What are the mechanical aspects of changing to Veteran? How much is the to-hit bonus of the enemies? Do they crit more often, and if yes, how often? Do their attacks do more damage, or they get the same damage, just higher chance to hit? Do they get extra action points? Do my creations start to suffer penalties  to hit too / enemy defenses go up? If yes, how much? 

 

As a note, I am probably a very bad player. In 95% of the battles, I just throw my drakons in to do chain lighting or breath and then my drayks clean house. It rarely comes to my Shaper to actually do anything. What I mean is that my "strategy" in general is "press attack button."  

 

 

 

[Archaeolagent]

Besides the things you mentioned, difficulty affects:

- % penalty to damage dealt

- % increase to damage received

- increased chance/quantity of augments possessed by enemy creations (this includes activated abilities and passives, not sure if it also includes the +stat/level augments)

- additional scripted actions (generally on top of their regular actions, i.e., they don't use up turns or AP) for bosses and other special enemies

 

I don't have (and haven't seen) specific numbers on any of these.

 

There are also a (very) tiny number of cases where difficulty adds/subtracts from the reputation, leadership, or mechanics need to deal with a situation.  It doesn't have a really significant impact in any of these AFAIK.

[alhoon]

So, in short, it is like: The enemy is practically higher level + Friendly fire + Extra abilities 
AND

In a few cases the checks are more difficult

AND

In some bosses, the are scripted stuff that scales with difficulty. 

[Archaeolagent]

The enemy is not actually higher level.  Older SW games worked that way -- original Geneforge might have, I think, and Avernum Second Trilogy.

 

The increased damage taken, and reduced damage dealt, are percentage-based effects which are much stronger than what you'd get from an extra level or two.

 

EDIT: Oh, also, it affects Control Level for your creations very mildly.  You already knew that though.

[alhoon]

I like Veteran more, to be honest. Sure, the "hit your creations" thing is annoying when the Chain lighting jumps about but I like that even random mobs have some special powers. 

I do not like that a bunch of soldiers, serviles, bandits, whatever have those batons that haste/bless them like Zora does, but they had that even in normal difficulty. And it makes sense for them to have them. I mean, why not? If I was not a Shaper I would use them too. 

 

That sidetrack aside: 
I like veteran more but it is still easy. We had our diverging views on Drakons/Drayks but the fact of the matter is that I am close to finish the Barzhite lands and I am level 18. I am not terribly optimized but a Shaper doesn't have to. I mean I have 1 Ur-drakon level 27 with an absurdly powerful purge, 2 Drakons lvl 24 and 3 Drayks lvl 23 + Heust Blade (bumped to level 18 but he nearly never has the time to hit anyway). 

With my gear I have: Blessing magic 4, Essence Mastery 11, Spellcraft 3 (charm), Fire Shaping 16 (robe), healing 4, mechanics 7 (can jump to 12 if I put on the gear), Leadership 7 (can go to 9 if I put on the gear).  

I have yet to clean the Barzhite Lands of the greatest threat: the Barzhites themselves, as I am still looking for a bunch of things they have in the Radiant College that I haven't been into yet. Then, I will clean Rising without any issue at all, as the Creations there are level 7-10 and the guards level 8-12. Barzhal himself is level 18 and stands alone like an idiot surrounded by Drayks I can turn on him. 

 

Unless There is a huge difficulty spike in the Taker Lands, being level 18 Shaper in Veteran is not going to present serious issues. 

 

Aaaaaaaaaall that preamble leads me to this: 

I have mentioned it in the past, and I say it again. Leveling should be slower, IMO. The solution is not, in my opinion, to have the rank-and-file servile warrior be level 21 in Taker Lands, of course not. The solution is that the player should, again in my opinion, end the game at level 20 not 22-23, be level 12-16 in the Barzhite lands, not 15-18, etc. 

Not that Rising would present any issue at all for me at level 16;  I know because I have purged it twice at level 16. That's the exception to the rule; Rising's Alphas and Ghaalks should be at least 12 level, not 7.  

[Archaeolagent]

I agree with you about levelling.  That said it's very tricky to balance as a dev, because you have to balance both for people who play all side content, and for people who ignore all side content -- which in GF isn't just most of the quests, it's also half of the zones -- and because GF gives you so much freedom as to the order you do things in, it would be difficult to solve simply by having clearer gradations in the base level set for XP in different places.

 

(This is why Overrun on Torment artifically slows the player's progression, ultimately taking away 2 levels worth of skill points.  But doing anything equivalent in the base game wouldn't really work for all players.)

[alhoon]

17 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

I agree with you about levelling.  That said it's very tricky to balance as a dev, because you have to balance both for people who play all side content, and for people who ignore all side content -- which in GF isn't just most of the quests, it's also half of the zones -- and because GF gives you so much freedom as to the order you do things in, it would be difficult to solve simply by having clearer gradations in the base level set for XP in different places.

 

(This is why Overrun on Torment artifically slows the player's progression, ultimately taking away 2 levels worth of skill points.  But doing anything equivalent in the base game wouldn't really work for all players.)

I understand the approach on Torment but that way it would be extremely hard at first, and then progress from there to be "quite more difficult" as I saw somewhere the stats you have in Torment are also lower = you are like 3-4 levels below. 

 

That said, I think the decaying XP rewards would work to ensure that completionists are not too far ahead. 

Honestly, I will simply Script a -2800 XP (two levels worth) for me. I will keep me at 18 level for a looong while though. 

[Archaeolagent]

Yes, Overrun on Torment does other things also, to make Torment actually challenging even for players who optimize well and know the tips and tricks that make every Spiderweb game easier 🙂

 

Actually I think that's not a terrible idea about the lower XP award.  The real issue (and the reason the Overrun -10's are where they are) is that the game has zero guaranteed choke points that the PC must go through, with the exception of the very beginning of the game, and Freegate.  Everything else is optional, and can be done in any order, which prevents negative XP events from really being meaningful.

[Randomizer]

The original GF2 mentioned entering Northern Pass a recommended level as a warning. But there isn't anything like it in the remake. Secret Tunnel/Freegate, Western Pass, and Northern Pass are the only true choke points in the game. The rest has usually two paths to get through the area whee you can gain lots of experience especially if you min/max your character to go there earlier than normal.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, ex post slarto said:

Yes, Overrun on Torment does other things also, to make Torment actually challenging even for players who optimize well and know the tips and tricks that make every Spiderweb game easier 🙂

 

Actually I think that's not a terrible idea about the lower XP award.  The real issue (and the reason the Overrun -10's are where they are) is that the game has zero guaranteed choke points that the PC must go through, with the exception of the very beginning of the game, and Freegate.  Everything else is optional, and can be done in any order, which prevents negative XP events from really being meaningful.

Well, there are chokepoints to go from the Awakened to the Barzhite lands and from the Barzhite lands to the Taker lands as well as the Awakened to the Taker lands. 

Thus a "-1000 XP" the first time you cross the tunnel and then "-1000 XP" the first time you cross to either Taker or Barzhite lands (with a flag to show that you got the Taker / Barzhite malus so that you won't get it twice) is absolutely feasible and unlike the big big -2800 malus I gave myself it won't halt you in level 18 for as long as I will be. I do not mind the wait, BTW. I have no issues as it is thus that's why I did it that way. 

The problem I think I will have is that at level 18 I would be getting XP that a level 20 char would not get thus I will still end up like level 22 or something. I may need to give myself another -1400 XP at level 20. 

 

However, that can't be done in a big and polished mod like Overrun for the main reason you mentioned before: Not everyone is a completionist. And especially for Overrun that is made for re-runs, a lot of zones would be skipped/omitted. Now, if you find a way to do it, or want it anyway, all the power to you. All I am saying is that I gave my Shaper a -2800 XP and then got 300+ from killing every Barzhite I could get my hands on. And I am not getting to the College where I will get even more XP as everyone is level 15-20. I got XP from purging Ghent too, XP the average player won't get. 

 

Edited May 21 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

No.  Those are not choke points.  The player is not forced to go through one specific place, so there's no one place you can attach an XP (or whatever) penalty to.  Western Pass and Northern Pass are not choke points, they aren't even required zones.

 

The only true choke points are the beginning of the game and Freegate.

[alhoon]

To finish the game, you need to go to Barzhal. To progress with the game, you need to pass to the Taker lands. There are just to ways into the Barzhite lands. 

 

EDIT: Checking the map on the hintbook: 

Zones 44 and 48 (Hintbook zones, not script-numbers) are the only ways to the Barzhite lands. Putting a flag in both of them to trigger the first time you enter either of them, is entirely feasible. You cannot get an ending for the game without going through one or the other. 

 

Zones 67 and 39 are the only ways to the Taker lands.  Putting a flag in both of them to trigger the first time you enter either of them, is entirely feasible. 

Edited May 21 by alhoon

[Archaeolagent]

The beginning of them game and Freegate both happen at very specific points.  The Taker passes don't; you can get to them fairly quickly after Freegate, maybe 20-30% through the game, or you can complete basically all of Awakened and Barzite lands first, more like 70-80%.  That makes them a poor way to impact progression.  This is even more true of whatever 3 zones you pick as Barzite gates.

 

In other words -- Freegate doesn't create any incentives to manipulate the game in weird ways for an advantage.  Doing that in the passes would.

[Magenta]

I STRONGLY disagree with changing the level-up from 1400 to 1700 or penalizing the XP gain based on where you are. I play on normal because it is fun and I don't have to min-max to be successful. (I know others like it - more power to them, but for me it is just too tedious). I doubt I am the only one who would be very disappointed if the game were made harder by slowing down the level-ups. If your skill level is such that normal is no longer a challenge, then raise the difficulty. That's what it's there for. Please don't suggest making it harder for the rest of us who are not so skilled. Or in other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[alhoon]

33 minutes ago, Magenta said:

I STRONGLY disagree with changing the level-up from 1400 to 1700 or penalizing the XP gain based on where you are. I play on normal because it is fun and I don't have to min-max to be successful. (I know others like it - more power to them, but for me it is just too tedious). I doubt I am the only one who would be very disappointed if the game were made harder by slowing down the level-ups. If your skill level is such that normal is no longer a challenge, then raise the difficulty. That's what it's there for. Please don't suggest making it harder for the rest of us who are not so skilled. Or in other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

To clarify: I did raise the difficulty and I play the easiest, by far, class: Fire Shaper. I also do a lot of zones.  That said, I am level 18 and I haven't completely finished the Barzhite lands. I encounter level 8 creations there. 

Furthermore, the penalizing of the XP I am discussing is not suggested for casual gamers. 

53 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

The beginning of them game and Freegate both happen at very specific points.  The Taker passes don't; you can get to them fairly quickly after Freegate, maybe 20-30% through the game, or you can complete basically all of Awakened and Barzite lands first, more like 70-80%.  That makes them a poor way to impact progression.  This is even more true of whatever 3 zones you pick as Barzite gates.

 

In other words -- Freegate doesn't create any incentives to manipulate the game in weird ways for an advantage.  Doing that in the passes would.

If I understand your point correct is that "you don't know when the player would go through the passes, it could be level 8 or level 14." 

Sure, but a -1000 XP is neither too much and it is constant. It would be a -1000 XP whether you are level 8 or level 14, slowing you down by as much.  Yes, of course it can be "gamed" so that the impact would be reduced. But it can still be felt. It is better, balance-wise to have that -1000 XP even at level 14 than to not have it at all. And if the player that crossed early and got that -1000 XP at level 8 feels underpowered, he or she can always do the easier zones that were left behind.

 

 

[Archaeolagent]

21 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Sure, but a -1000 XP is neither too much and it is constant. It would be a -1000 XP whether you are level 8 or level 14, slowing you down by as much.

-1000 XP at level 8 and -1000 XP at level 14 mean very, very different things.  -1000 XP at level 8 will have no lasting impact at all.  Truly none.  -1000 XP at level 14 is something you'll feel for a while.

[alhoon]

57 minutes ago, ex post slarto said:

-1000 XP at level 8 and -1000 XP at level 14 mean very, very different things.  -1000 XP at level 8 will have no lasting impact at all.  Truly none.  -1000 XP at level 14 is something you'll feel for a while.

-1000 at level 8 will have no lasting impact? But why? It is still -1000 XP.

It would eventually catch up when you start getting 20 XP from some enemies when you would get 10 XP, or 4 XP when you would get 2 XP, but it will never completely even out. You will finish the game with a bit less XP than what you would without it. 

[Archaeolagent]

If enemy level went up at the same rate as PC level, I could understanding thinking that.  But it doesn't.  PC level tends to go up faster.  There's simply a surplus of stuff available to kill to get good XP at any given level.

 

Also, long-term, eventually you hit zero XP.  So an early XP penalty like level 8 is completely irrelevant by then.

 

There is a huge surplus of things that will give you XP, up to a certain level.  This is why it truly doesn't matter what order you do most quests and kill most enemies in, you'll eventually be at a level where the vast majority of things in the game give you nothing.  You will get zero XP from lots and lots of stuff.

[alhoon]

Hmmm... you are not wrong there. If you get the -1000 at level 8, or even at level 14, you will still walk out of the Barzhite land at level 18. 
That said, if you get that -1000 even at level 8, you will have to kill more "should be free" things to walk out of the Barzhite lands at level 18. But then, my suggestion is geared for completionists. If you simply run past enemies to get to the "-1000 to cross" area and then backtrack to the Awakened lands to go fight the clawbugs and other level 5-7 things, you are indeed invalidating this change. But if someone does not want that "slowdown" and takes pains or specific strategies to minimize it, then that someone wouldn't even need to put the -1000 there in the first place. That -1000 is an estimation for those that want to pace themselves and find a bit more challenge in the next region without leaving quests and areas unexplored. 

And remember, it's not just that -1000. It is -1000 in the tunnels when you cross into Awakened and then another -1000 for the Barzhites. The purpose of those -1000 is not to leave one weak but to "prolong" a bit the "Early feel". By the end of the region, you will still be too powerful for it, sure.  

 

Regardless, I will tell people how the -2800 at level 18 went for me, personally. As Magenta said, that is not for everyone.  

Edited May 21 by alhoon