Bugfix vs Nerf (Overrun)

[earanhart]

6 hours ago, Slariton said:

v1.02: Reverted base game v1.02 rotghroth nerf

Not a nerf, a bug fix. You reintroduced a bug to raise their power.

6 hours ago, Slariton said:

Enhancements to PC melee: PC sword attacks received a modest boost to help them compete with Overrun's missile attacks, to create a specialized build option

You've lost me here. You made missile far easier and somewhat more powerful than it was. And now you are buffing melee to "create a specialized build option"? I recognize that you think melee wastes too many turns, but having just completed a ranged run to see the differences melee needs no assistance. Beyond the inventory stress that ranged had (QoL removes that, included in Overrun), I found my ranged Guardian backed into a corner far more often than I found my melee Guardian out of range.

If these two changes are in order to bring weapon skills up to match the Shaping buffs you've made by de-focusing them, say that. But melee specialized builds, even solo-melee, were already quite easy in Torment (barring the very few enemies with boils). 

What "specialized build option" are you talking about here? 

[Mea Tulpa]

11 minutes ago, earanhart said:

Not a nerf, a bug fix. You reintroduced a bug to raise their power.

 

That's a pretty disingenuous assertion, thanks.  Jeff says his change is a bugfix.  The change back and forth is just changing one value to another.  I thought that was an unfortunate change (whether a bugfix or not) and that the original value was better, so I reverted the value.  That's not "reintroducing a bug."  That's deliberately changing the value.  Based on this, I can't quite tell if I should take your other feedback seriously or not.

[alhoon]

38 minutes ago, earanhart said:

Not a nerf, a bug fix. You reintroduced a bug to raise their power.

 

???

If I make a mod to add say... acid ... to battle alpha's punches, or well, give them TOO the 6AP option, or removed the "haste" from Drayks and changed it with a different ability like the 30% resistance one of Cryoas...  am I making "bugs" or am I making a modification?

You may not like that change, but it is a deliberate change by a mod. It is not a bug. 

 

Claiming it is a bug when it is a modification undermines trust in this mod, which is a mod with a lot of work and love. I also don't agree with every choice in this beautiful piece of work. But I will not call changes as bugs. 

 

23 minutes ago, Slariton said:

thought that was an unfortunate change (whether a bugfix or not) and that the original value was better, so I reverted the value. 

That. 

 

  

6 hours ago, Lorn said:

the improving one shaping skill (the fire one) improves everything is simply genius. 

 

It was bold. It is quite clear that the way the game works, one would focus on a single path. This solution removes the "OK, I will go Battle this game!" 

Now you can go mixed. 

I think a slight exploit opens up though. Not sure, as I have not played this mod yet (still in my original game!) 

 

Edited May 13 by alhoon

[earanhart]

1 hour ago, Slariton said:

 

That's a pretty disingenuous assertion, thanks.  Jeff says his change is a bugfix.  The change back and forth is just changing one value to another.  I thought that was an unfortunate change (whether a bugfix or not) and that the original value was better, so I reverted the value.  That's not "reintroducing a bug."  That's deliberately changing the value.  Based on this, I can't quite tell if I should take your other feedback seriously or not.

The matter there is not in the content of the mod. It is in the documentation. SpidWeb has stated that the 6AP rot attack was a bug, a single value entered incorrectly, which he corrected. Your documentation here does not acknowledge that the modded behavior was not as designed by Jeff, and further introduces a new and mostly undocumented behavior of a capstone ability. Changing your documentation to be "Rot basic attack now uses only 6 AP" would be an accurate description of your mods changes while also informing future users of what this "reverted nerf" was. 

 

As for if you have reverted a bug fix or not, you yourself have claimed to have done nothing other than to undo Jeff's work with regard to what he calls a bug. That's reintroduction of a bug, even if it only a single integer. 

 

The more important part of this entire portion is providing your users with an accurate description of your mod. "Reverted base game nerf" doesn't tell a user what you've done, especially if multiple later patches come out. "Reduced AP cost of Rot attack" does.

 

As for taking my question seriously. Fine. Don't. But please stop asserting that playstyles you don't enjoy are not viable. Future new users will see your words, and will make inaccurate assumptions of the game based on what anyone on the forum says, much moreso one with the that little shield on their profile.

When you make a claim that a mod is needed to enable a specialized playstyle, and someone asks what that playstyle is, you the mod maker should be able to easily and quickly explain that playstyle. Because the post I quoted seems to imply that without your new edits a melee build is not viable. Which is false. I am confused, and so asked a global moderator and the mod maker for clarification. 

[Mea Tulpa]

This is completely insane.  I don't know whose alt account this is, but please lay off.

[earanhart]

8 hours ago, Slariton said:

There are now at least 3 viable solo Guardian builds (melee QA; missile Dex; and Feisty Slap Strength

You wouldn't need to ask me to shut up if you would defend this statement which I have now asked you to clarify thrice. 

Sword attacks as a melee Guardian were already viable on Torment, and far easier for me than was missile.  So I am asking you what you mean when you say 

9 hours ago, Slariton said:

Enhancements to PC melee: PC sword attacks received a modest boost to help them compete with Overrun's missile attacks, to create a specialized build option

What is this specialized build option? Is it going Dex/QA/Melee to push initiative higher? Because melee solo benefits from lower initiative as it draws enemies closer to them between prebuffing and their first turn. Is it a no-blessing melee Guardian? If so I am very curious as to how you are managing that. Is it a QA Guardian who forgoes crystals/pods to maximize number of swings? 

 

I am asking you to advertise the playstyle that you have created/enabled to me, because I would like to try it out.  But if all I can get from you is "lay off", then I am very likely to mever touch this content again.

 

I gave Overrun a shot, I dislike the movespeed bonus. It caused me numerous wasted turns as my character got stuck on a wall or a bush and simply lost AP to the void, and I never thought it needed to begin with, but I was willing to deal with that to see the new content you made (the roamer and thahd quests were entertaining, I didn't find where to complete the thorn quests, but also didn't hunt for that). As melee has ALWAYS been my preferred way to play Geneforge, from 1 through 5, M and now I, when a mod maker claims that they have created a new specialized melee build, I am excited to try.

All I'm asking is for you to tell me what the thing you made is, because the snippet you gave doesn't make sense to me as a melee enthusiast.

The first time I asked this, I recognized that you have repeated made it very clear in other threads here that you think ranged is by far the superior weapon option. I disagree. I suspect there is a different between our understandings of how the two builds interact with our styles of play. But that's fine. Every player will be better at different playstyles, and everyone will have slightly different preferences for builds. I'm sure there's someone out there who uses exclusively Volatile Thahds. That's fine. Enjoy the game. You think my playstyle is inferior and needs to be buffed. You claim to have enabled a new playstyle in my wheelhouse. 

 

Please explain the new melee build you have created inside Overrun v1.02. I would like to play it.

[Mea Tulpa]

It's impossible to talk about any of this seriously, when this level of venom and anger is already in the conversation.  Please stop with the venom and anger.

[earanhart]

I mean, have you tried answering the question even once? Vice merely attacking me as a person.

It might work.

[Triumph]

Earanhart, I've tried to fairly review this thread, and it looks to me like you're, well...getting mad about how Slarty phrased the changelog describing what his own mod does? Is that right? It's his mod, he should be allowed to describe it how he pleases, no? He seems to have explained the point you're asking pretty clearly already though.

 

To quote from his changelog post, the part about the PC melee enhancement: "PC sword attacks now receive a small chance to crit based on the PC's Quick Action skill: 5% for every 2 points of QA, up to a maximum of 30%.  (Note that crit is only a 1.5x multiplier in GF2, so this is only up to a +15% bonus on average.)  As a side effect, QA also adds to die quantity for PC sword attacks.  There are now at least 3 viable solo Guardian builds (melee QA; missile Dex; and Feisty Slap Strength)."

 

It looks obvious to me that his change consists of upgrading Quick Action so it contributes to both melee crit chance and damage dice. I'm honestly not sure what more you're expecting from him?

 

I'm gonna have to ask you to dial down the heat of your comments. You've been needlessly belligerent.

[Mea Tulpa]

I've split this heated and somewhat divergent conversation off from the mod topic, for the sake of keeping that topic (which has a purpose) functional.  And because this subject appears to be resolved for the moment, I'm locking it while we're all ahead.