Creations going rogue - Terrified I understand. Turning against you, why?

[alhoon]

So, I was wondering, why do creations that go rogue have a chance to actually turn against you, when they are already wounded? Wouldn't a creature that broke free of your control out of fear and pain simply run away? Why attacking an army of powerful creatures (yours)? 

 

Lore-wise, I think we hear a couple of times that creations that become rogue are very hard / impossible to get back to control. I remember how hard it was supposed to be to bring that rogue artila back to control in GF4. And not even the monarch could take control of the creations he set free without his baton. Thus the rule of "kill rogue creations" makes sense. It evolved from "it is hard to take it back". 
I also understand mistreated creations like the Barzite ones to go berserk when you break those controls in GF2. But NOT mistreated ones? Why would they turn on their creations. Again, I am not talking about a clawbug which they are nasty tempered and stupid bugs so they would attack because that's what they are biologically made to do. 
But when rogue Battle Alphas can be smart enough to NOT pick up a fight with you, why would your rogue creations turn on you? Why would a Drayk going rogue attack you?

[Aoslare]

Because being rogue is not the same thing as going rogue.  A "rogue" alpha that has been rogue for years because it's been in an environment with no shapers and lots of independent creations, is not the same thing as a controlled and essentially fettered alpha suddenly, without warning, in the middle of a chaotic combat, having its mental chains snap and becoming free, without guidance and probably with quite a bit of disorientation.  Alphas weren't engineered to think, they were engineered with combat reflexes; it's not hard to imagine why it might lash out in such a situation.

 

A drayk is a different question; the lore is extremely clear that drayks are "dangerously smart and independent" -- and particularly "cunning," a word that is used to describe them in multiple places just in G1.  Mutagen says shapers need a difficult to acquire license in order to make drayks; in original Geneforge they had been barred entirely, apparently without exception, for over a century.  A drayk that has gone rogue might deliberately target its creator in order to avoid being controlled again; but more than that, the game notes the possibility that it might already have been rogue, simply hiding it and waiting for the right moment to strike.

[alhoon]

As you say, in Mutagen they are not entirely barred. But they probably already be barred by the remakes of GF2 or GF3. 

I love the idea that the drayk could cunningly pretend to not be rogue. How ... cunning.  But wouldn't the Shaper know that the mental chains have broken? From the games, it seems the Shaper is aware that the Creations under his or her control are stressed and they send nice thoughts or put them in those Barzite contraptions that pacify them or beat them up or use the less cruel contraptions that calm them (and reduce their stealth so you can sneak by them in future games).
I also remember ... was it in Mutagen?  A fyora being described as "very clearly rogue" but obeying orders because the serviles were beating it up. 

 

Anyway, to return to the lovely idea of a Drayk cunningly hiding it is rogue and biding its time, wouldn't the Shaper know it is rogue? 

The drayks I've met in all games were greedy, cunning and independent. Even the blacksmith in GF5 (or was it GF4?) 

 

 

And what about Rotdhizons and Gazers? Practically all Gazers I've seen except mine and the ones Taygen held in his castle (Taygen the Ultra-shaper that had Gazers...) were very very rogue. Even the Rebels stopped making them. They honestly seemed harder to control than Drakons for the Barzites. 
As for Rotdhizons, I remember in GF2 that I find a rogue Rotdhizon locked in a room. And a Barzite I think tells me "Nah, it's not rogue. THAT is how a non-rogue Rotdhizon is" 

Alwan's forces make Rotgroths but not Rotdhizons. Of course, Alwan is weird and strange (he uses spawners!!!) but I think others use them too. 

 

 

 

PS. I would like to see how that show-off Shaper that says all chill "How many creations I control? 41 at the time."  would control drayks, Gazers, Drakons etc.

(the guy was either lying or has control 50+ ) 

 

Regardless, how interesting answer. How many possibilities. 

[Aoslare]

17 hours ago, alhoon said:

I love the idea that the drayk could cunningly pretend to not be rogue. How ... cunning.  But wouldn't the Shaper know that the mental chains have broken?

No, at least not necessarily.  The Mutagen codex is clear on this:

"Only the most skilled Shapers can keep them under control. They can be entirely rogue and still pretend to be obedient."

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, ad minos, tater said:

No, at least not necessarily.  The Mutagen codex is clear on this:

"Only the most skilled Shapers can keep them under control. They can be entirely rogue and still pretend to be obedient."

You are right... 

 

So with that, am I to assume that a Shaper can send mental commands (and thoughts) to a Rogue creation, but rogues just choose to ignore said commands (or in the case of drayks decide to follow anyway)? 

There is some support on that, I think, as Shapers can take back control of their own rogues (and very rarely some random rogues ) and some Rebels are terrified you will take back control of them.  

Edited November 8, 2023 by alhoon

[Aoslare]

I don't think the games have really said shapers are able to "send mental commands (and thoughts)" to any creations, period.  Taking back control is described as an exertion of willpower, and in some cases is mechanically tied to Leadership.  There's no suggestion it's telepathic.

[alhoon]

3 hours ago, ad minos, tater said:

I don't think the games have really said shapers are able to "send mental commands (and thoughts)" to any creations, period.  Taking back control is described as an exertion of willpower, and in some cases is mechanically tied to Leadership.  There's no suggestion it's telepathic.

 

Hmm? I would say that exertion of willpower as you call it, is close to "establishing mental commands". Furthermore, the shapers in GF4 and GF5 that use those big crystals for remote control, certainly use mental commands. The show-off Shaper that talks about commanding, remotely, 41 creations mentions something akin to that. 
Moseh 100% controls his creations telepathically (he even took control of my poor servile ally and absorbed him )  and I think the ... how were they called? The big rooms with servant minds that Alwan had (against Shaper Laws) to control creations did it telepathically, as the creations were not around. 

I also think the Player in GF3 sends soothing commands to the Artilla in the first island that we can absorb, in order to to keep it placid. 

Of course, I speak from memory in all of those. 

 

Regardless, if not with "mental commands" how do Shapers direct their creations? 

[Amira The Hot Potato]

I can't remember if Mutagen says this but in the original it basically states that even creations in your control have a will of their own in a sense. I always interpreted as 1 of 2 things that the creations feel:

 

-This person is causing me to get hurt a lot so let me hurt them!

-Let me switch sides so they get the message they need to protect me a bit as well

 

Creations that are rogues or going rogue aren't necessarily in the right state of mind 

 

Side notes: As many people on here told me, some things just aren't very logically depending how you look at it

 

-I will never forget the Drayk I had in the original that turned on me in the South workshop (whatever it was called) I was so close to beating that zone and it decided to have a meltdown 🙄

Edited November 12, 2023 by Amira The Hot Potato
entered too soon