How much of a threat do the Vahnatai actually pose?

[Golgolath]

Disclaimer: I have never played Avernum 4-6. I have no idea in the slightest what happens in those games.

 

In Avernum 3, the plagues created by the Vahnatai admittedly do a lot of damage to Valorim, but the fact remains that they are pretty easily nullified by a single group of people. Later on, the Vahnatai suffer a devastating defeat at Rentar Ihnro's keep at the hands of the same small group.

 

Lore-wise, it is repeatedly shown throughout the series that individual Vahnatai, while dangerous, cannot go toe to toe with larger forces without being wiped out (see: Ornotha Ziggurat). The most powerful Vahnatai was, for all practical purposes, defeated in combat by a single human arch-mage, and their Crystal Souls were easily nullified and destroyed when they were fought in the golem factory.

 

Based on that, I kind of wonder just how dangerous they really are. It seems like in a head-on battle between the Vahnatai and even Avernum's forces, the Vahnatai  would probably have lost. Certainly it doesn't seem like they could possibly have stood up to the Empire in a straight fight. They seem more like "very dangerous commandos" who couldn't survive a set piece battle against a real army.

 

It seems like what defeated the Empire in Avernum 2 was less the intervention of the Vahnatai than Avernum completely crippling the empire's logistics by destroying the portal. Curious about people's opinions:

 

1. Could Avernum have won the war in Avernum 2 without the Vahnatai's help?

2. Could the Vahnatai possibly have survived a war against the Empire?

[googoogjoob]

Really you gotta play 4-6 to answer this question better. But: without spoilers for them:

1. If the barriers had stayed up, no. If the barriers had not stayed up, well, maybe? The player characters only rise to prominence and are assigned the task of destroying the portal because of the coincidence that they happened to be the ones who the Vahnatai contacted. Maybe some other party of adventurers would've destroyed the portal eventually, or the existing party would've done so in some other way, but it probably would've taken longer, and time was on the Empire's side.

2. Yes. The Vahnatai live in caves the Empire has barely any knowledge of, and access to even deeper and more defensible caves if it came to that. Further, we only actually see one polity of Vahnatai in Avernum 1-3, the Olgai Vahnatai. There are at least several and potentially many other Vahnatai tribes and states in the deep caves, and the Empire would never be able to root out and destroy all of them.

[Randomizer]

1. The only advantages that Avernum had in the war were knowing the terrain and the Empire had a limited number of troops they could bring down by teleporter. They had already lost the Abyss and were trying to locate Empire bases hidden in Avernum. So it would have been a drawn out war trying to regain territory.

 

2. The Vahnatai were split with a faction aiding the Empire. Given time they could have revived more of their forces to cause trouble for the Empire, but they wouldn't have been able to directly fight them on the surface. You would have seen more plagues of monsters to weaken the Empire rather than major battles.

[Slawbug]

Keep in mind that "a single group of people" also manage to defeat the Empire's forces in two games, and an army of demons in two games as well.  This is a series about heroics, not the precise measurement of military and magical might.  It is quite strongly suggested that the full magical power of the Vahnatai would, if not held back, be more than sufficient to defeat human forces.

 

I note that in X2, there's one character who describes Rentar-Ihrno as only the most powerful of the ihrnos "currently awake."  And while it's true that Rentar-Ihrno was effectively defeated in battle by Erika, it was a long battle -- not at all a shutout -- and Erika is the most powerful human mage depicted in the series (with the possible exception of Garzahd; though a lot of his power seems to take the form of enchantments laid upon him rather than raw magical capability).

 

In E1-2 it was pretty clear that different mages had different specialties.  Solberg was a master minddueler, Garzahd pre-eminent in wards, Aimee and Aydin experts on far sight, Pyrn and Vidrain on teleportation, and so on.  Less time was spent on this in the remakes.  I bring this up mainly to note that Erika and Rentar-Ihrno are the only two mages we see (at least in the First Trilogy) who

(a) seem pre-eminently talented across many different areas;

(b) utilize magic that transforms living things -- Rentar making the plagues and Erika modifying the glowing fungus, cavewood trees, mushrooms, etc.

 

I would look at both of them as exceptional; but Rentar's power was clearly less unusual for her race than Erika's was for hers.

[meviin]

> they are pretty easily nullified by a single group of people

I mean, pretty easily nullified by a single group of people who can load save games, sure

[Minion]

I suppose it should be noted that at the time of Crystal Souls (and presumably Ruined World), only a small fraction of the Vahnatai nation (or nations?) has awakened from their crystal stasis, which means that they have limited manpower and resources at their disposal. Once sufficient numbers had awakened and they had restored their infrastructure sufficiently, I would presume that the Vahnatai would have been an even greater force to be reckoned with. Note that I too have not played the second trilogy.

[Necris Omega]

#1 - Ultimately... No.

 

Keep in mind, Rentar and one of the Crystal Souls were a key factor in assassinating Garzahd. As long as he was in charge, the Empire would never have given up. As the surface has effectively infinite resources while Avernum has so few even the mightiest of natives rely on a hibernation cycle, there was really only one way that could have ended.

 

#2 - Ultimately... again, no. The Empire has limitless resources and numbers, and while the Vahnatai are both extremely clever and powerful, they absolutely don't. The Vahnatai did have some measure of success against the Empire on the surface, but only against its weakest point with the element of surprise on their hands and several years of infiltration, preparation, and production.

 

Talking total, to the death, no backsies war? If the Empire decided that the Vahnatai absolutely, 100% needed the same treatment they gave to the Dragons, then the Vahnatai live exactly as long as it takes the Empire to figure out how to effectively and reliably bridge the gap between the surface and deeper Avernum, and they were close to that already. The Empire lost the Avernum War not because they were beaten in terms of casualties or resources, but because without Garzahd, they lost motivation.

 

Now, perhaps the Vahnatai could persist long enough to win via that route again, but that all depends on the context. Having proven themselves to be not misunderstood misfits who'll live in peace if you let them, but superpowered magical terrorists who'll stop at nothing to obliterate the whole of the surface, that's not as clear as it was for Avernum. The motivation for such a war wouldn't come from "oh, they killed that ultra cruel emperor everyone hated", but their innumerable crimes against humanity and oath to continue them. An entire continent's worth of victims is harder to pave over than a single ruler, so it's a far different kind of war in this situation.

[Sir Fred]

Let's build an alternate timeline where Avernum is wiped out!

 

 

Avernum 1 - Nothing changes. Hawthorne and Pyrog die.

 

Between games, the Empire launches the Avernum invasion, and steals the Crystal Souls. In response the barriers go up.

 

Avernum 2 - The "War Heros" are summoned to take a treacherous journey down some insanely dangerous rapids. Predictably, their boat is smashed and they drown. Formello in desperation even sends another group down (Warrior NPC who was able to join party in past, temple priest, library wizard...). They also die in much the same fashion but I feel it's important to give a couple failed chances at the journey. It's established in game that if you don't bring down the barriers (By refusing to let the Oglai Council search your mind), the Empire figures it out first and Avernum is carved up piecemeal and destroyed. This is where the new timeline begins.

 

Avernum was slaughtered, maybe a few holdouts managed to hide from the massacre such as in the Honeycomb, but they wouldn't last long and likely would be of no consequence. Just for fun, they were even able to finish their massive portal.

 

The Empire now has two options: Join their Vahnatai helpers in their civil war (Their allies wanted to bring an end to Crystal Soul worship), or leave the savages to kill each other. I think they would leave, leaving behind their modified giants and demons to wreak havoc with anyone foolish enough to try to rebuild Avernum. Garzahd is still alive, and he has control of two dragons (Khoth, Sulfras) since Sulfras described being shackled as Garzahd taking their mind. Mortrax is dead, so they'll carry out similar experiments on his corpse as they did for Pyrog. Athrons fate is debatable, since everyone knew she exists, but it might well not be worth the Empire's trouble to go after her. So Garzahd withdraws with two live dragons and three crystal souls to play with. The Oglai Vahnatai launch a desperate attack on Ornotho Ziggurat that fails to even recover one Crystal Soul. During the ensuing Vahnatai civil war, the Oglai Vahnatai keep awakening more warriors and they will win out over their rebels eventually. Now Rentar gets to work on the plagues.

 

Avernum 3 - Valorim is utterly devastated, but the core of the Empire is undamaged.

 

The Slimes burn much of Kriszan, but eventually are stopped whenever Garzahd bothers looking for the source. Throw a bunch of fireballs at it, it ends.

The Isle of Bigail essentially winds up getting the "Nuke it from orbit" treatment to wipe out the roaches. No need to find the filthy factory itself, it simply burns along with the rest of the island.

Troglos and Giants can be solved by simple force of arms, something the Empire can eventually bring out, especially once we consider the golems.

The Golem factory is the real fun one. Garzahd has been researching on three crystal souls for years now. All it takes to find the Golem factory is some flying around(Drake Lord, Wizard). I think he would be able to take it over using his research on the Crystal Souls. So now Garzahd has taken over an army of golems and can launch an assault on Footracer province.

Alien Beasts are taken out by the full might of the Empire's Army that they couldn't use during the Avernum War, in addition to an army of golems. The assault then continues on to Rentar's keep. Rentar retreats into the deeper caves. The Empire does not forget and looks at another invasion of the underworld to deal with the latest threat.

 

 

 

Next up we can look at the second trilogy, so spoilers for people who haven't played those yet:

 

Avernum 4 - Rentar rebuilds similar plagues, only attacking the surface again. Losses are inflicted, but this time the Empire was ready and they are minimized. Meanwhile, the Empire was preparing to launch an invasion of the Vahnatai lands, so they do. They've had decades to build a teleporter network to move massive amounts of troops to the underworld, not to mention the one left over from the previous war. They take heavy losses, but Rentar falls. Quite frankly, the second plagues from Rentar just don't seem anywhere near as dangerous as the first wave given the amount of time to prepare the second time around. A few years led to an army of golems and the alien beasts. A few decades gives us three shades and krakens. Rentar also had a lot less supporters the second time around though.

 

Avernum 5 - Because Garzahd didn't die, the Empire doesn't soften up, so the Darkside Loyalists never happen. The Empire's power is not diminished at all. If Athron lived, Melanchion is pretty lonely without all his followers. He seeks out the deep cavern Sliths. More Vahnatai wake up to find a genocidal army attacking them. They're not ready for this and are slaughtered.

 

Avernum 6 - Deep cave Sliths and Melanchion find the caves being populated mostly by The Empire's army bent on wiping out all life in the underworld because they've been attacked three times by the underworlders now (Hawthorne, Vahnatai x2). Even if the Vahnatai and Sliths allied, which they won't based off what the Vahantai say about them, I can't see them winning. Prazac is dead of old age at this point, but Garzahd is still around as mostly a Lich at this point (Solberg, Patrick getting to decide when their time is up as opposed to old age). Garzahd can pretty much create Golem Factories wherever now, and the Vahnatai happen to have a whole bunch of conveniently located Crystal Souls to run them for him to avoid the problems Solberg had with a large number of Golems. Gladwell and Melanchion are pretty much non-factors if they're even alive. Not to mention the Empire is well established as Dragon killers and able to defeat powerful mages (They were able to send a whole pile of them to Avernum at the same time, including Erika).