One would think... [SPOILERS]

[eaintree]

...that if you've slaughtered the entire Grey Raptors clan, word would make its way back to Envoy Jaime, and he would... be irked? Have some reaction? No longer give you quests?

 

There are just so many of these little storytelling drops, and cumulatively, they add up to feeling that I really don't need to invest my time in a second full playthrough.

 

I also don't understand why the endgame text tells you that "the Grey Raptors eventually tire of having their envoys killed" if you choose to do Yoshira's quest and satisfy them.

[Randomizer]

Just as they pursued Yoshiria for killing one of their assassins, they are honor bound to kill you for killing more. Part of their reputation lies in killing those that kill them in order to prevent their members from being killed so often.

[eaintree]

Just as they pursued Yoshiria for killing one of their assassins, they are honor bound to kill you for killing more. Part of their reputation lies in killing those that kill them in order to prevent their members from being killed so often.

 

Uh... yes. That's the point. Enjoy Jaime is unaffected/has no new convo options. The subplot is broken.

[Serene Tempest]

If you watch him closely, he does have some of that text that appears above characters heads saying something like "We'll let you live. For now."

[Davies]

You didn't kill the entire Grey Raptors organization, just one base and not even their home base (probably in Kellamved). Further, Jaime claims to not know anything about that operation. Just as with Avadon, Grey Raptors are only told what they need to know, and anyway, he's a diplomat. They won't use him to deliver threats.

[Student of Trinity]

Spiderweb games aren't like thick novels. They're more like plays. There isn't space to explain everything. If nitpicky little things bother you, then put your nitpicky skills to work in rationalizing what the game does. There's always a way.

 

In my experience this usually ends up being more fun than the game seemed at first, because I end up inventing a bit more story of my own, to make things fit. Sometimes the little rationalizations even end up making a big difference. For instance, perhaps the Gray Raptors just aren't actually as competent as they would have you believe. Their information doesn't get around, they're not really everywhere, they're not really inevitable at all. That's a bit like an echo of Avadon: powerful, but not nearly as powerful as it pretends to be, so ultimately kind of a fraud. Maybe all mortal powers are like that, and that's the point. You can end up looking at the whole game a little differently, seeing it as a sort of fugue on the futility of power.

 

I'm not saying that's how things really are, and I'm not even saying that that's what the game Avadon 2 is saying. I'm saying it's a way to interpret the game, that makes some apparent glitches make sense, and that is actually kind of interesting. Jeff's games don't have airtight continuity, but they have enough coherence that you can always rationalize things, and I think it's worth the effort.

[boladefuego]

I don't think making up your own justifications for the game's shortcomings actually make it better than if the game didn't have those shortcomings in the first place but each to his own. Just like in movies, plot holes are plot holes whatever you decide to do with them. Depends on the size I guess if they matter or not but being able to overlook past the faults doesn't make them go away nor does it make the movie better by being 'open to interpretation'. I'd rather conclude good for what it is or the whole is greater than the sum of its parts or something.

[eaintree]

Sometimes I do enjoy inventing stories to fill in the gaps -- but sometimes the gap is just too large. As boladefuego said, a plot hole's a plot hole. (A plot hole in a play's no less a plot hole than it is in a novel.) Sure, it wasn't the whole Grey Raptor org that you destroyed, maybe they do like to exaggerate their power and competence...

 

but it's still just too eye-rollingly large to believe that not a hint of what you did would ever get back to Envoy Jaime. Maybe they're not the God of Assassin-Guilds, maybe they're just demi-gods, fine; they're not INcompetent, or they'd never have gotten to be so feared. However good they actually are, their envoy in Avadon would hear about the total decimation of their base sooner or later, and...

 

Further, Jaime claims to not know anything about that operation. Just as with Avadon, Grey Raptors are only told what they need to know, and anyway, he's a diplomat. They won't use him to deliver threats.

 

Spooling out info on a need-to-know basis in ANY such org is usually about mission info, not about threats to the whole organization; if someone firebombed Avadon, every member of Avadon would know, and anyway, the whole Grey Raptor org was informed when Yoshira killed ONE Raptor agent (or if they weren't there's no indication of it); we're supposed to buy that when you take out a few dozen, central Raptor command decides to keep their field agents in the dark? You'd go on their Most Wanted list, wouldn't you? Even if field agents like Jaime were warned not to take you on solo (and of course he's not going to attack you inside Avadon), it makes far more sense for him to be informed and aware of what you did, than to not be.

 

I don't need much, here -- a few lines of text from Jaime advising you to watch your step (doesn't have to be a threat) would be fine, but come ON. That's a plot hole you could drive a Humvee through.

[Serene Tempest]

Perhaps Jamie doesn't particularly want you to watch your step. Or say anything else to encourage you to keep your guard up.

[Alberich]

...that if you've slaughtered the entire Grey Raptors clan, word would make its way back to Envoy Jaime, and he would... be irked? Have some reaction? No longer give you quests?

 

That was actually a complaint I had about Geneforge 4, that however hard I tried to become openly "Shaper," the rebels never seemed to get the message that I had been slaughtering every one of them I could get my hands on.

 

One of my justifications for agreeing to burn the records for Yoshiria was that I wanted the Gray Raptors' help in tracking down Gryfyn (I owe him some pain from game 1); but I'm glad I avoided this incongruity by making that choice. I think a little more writing, just a paragraph, might've resolved it: "So, player, you have killed a large number of Gray Raptors. Your death will be excruciating when the time comes. In the meantime, as a loyal Hand of Avadon, perhaps you'd like to help us track down the rogue duke Gryfyn anyway? We can pay you in money and nice items, and as an added bonus, we will forward them to your next of kin after we torture you to death."

[eaintree]

Perhaps Jamie doesn't particularly want you to watch your step. Or say anything else to encourage you to keep your guard up.

 

Look -- there is a difference between their envoy having a good poker face, and a broken subplot. This is the latter.

 

Here is the text you see before the Raptor fight:

 

YOU: What if I refuse? (to burn the records)

 

OPALINE: Then we kill you. Or you kill us. In which case, the other Gray Raptors will blame you personally. I made sure of this as soon as I took Yoshira.

 

*****

 

So there you have it. It isn't a case of need-to-know; it's another blood debt, just like Yoshira's.

 

EVEN SO: The only changes needed would be *extremely* minimal. Whether you do the Raptors' quest and burn all the Avadon records or kill all of them in their base, your only new convo option to Jaime is "I have freed Yoshira from your clutches." Fine. His only response, in either case, is to politely express that he is truly glad that she lived and to assure you that he had nothing to do with that operation. If you burned the records, this works fine. If you slaughtered them all, what he says works fine, and all that's needed to add is some text-commentary after his little speech; Alberich suggested that he needs a new paragraph, but he doesn't even need that; he doesn't even need to SAY anything new.

 

ALL we need is a tiny bit of narration after his polite response; something along the lines of "his expression remains carefully neutral as he tells you this."

 

Seriously. Ten words, and it's good to go, but they AIN'T THERE. (And before you say that Jaime's a practiced diplomat who wouldn't even give that much away -- no he isn't; you already made him blush when you asked "are all Raptors as young as you are?")

 

I guess I make such a point of it *because* I have enjoyed playing most of the Avernum series, some of the Geneforge series and now both Avadon games, over the years. But I've also become more critical about story-issues, because at the end of the day, story's all I care about. Battle strategy is fun but I can leave the nuts and bolts of how to max out a Tinkermage to others; I don't really care that much.

 

In terms of seamless plot construction, I might give Avadon 1 an 8 or a 9, on a 10 point scale. A2? 6 or 7. Maybe even 5. And that just isn't enough to make me feel like I've been told a story, or get me looking forward to Avadon 3, down the road.

[Randomizer]

Envoy Jamie cares about one thing, doing the least amount of work so as to not endanger himself. He's new and knows attempting to do anything remotely hostile in Avadon will earn him relocation to the dungeons. So he doesn't attack Yoshiria or take care of destroying the records.

[eaintree]

Envoy Jamie cares about one thing, doing the least amount of work so as to not endanger himself. He's new and knows attempting to do anything remotely hostile in Avadon will earn him relocation to the dungeons. So he doesn't attack Yoshiria or take care of destroying the records.

 

Jaime doesn't say anything about "doing the least amount of work." But even if we accept that to be true, it doesn't have anything to do with what I just posted, above.