Dexterity vs Endurance

[another]

Other than for a vitality boost, is it ever worthwhile to invest in endurance? In terms of survivability, is dex always the right choice?

 

End and Dex both keep your characters alive in a fight, although they do it in different ways. Dex causes misses, where End gives you more hp.

 

Armor and resistance are roughly the same thing, both are damage mitigation. Because of this, in theory, endurance would be more beneficial to characters with very high armor and resistance. Whereas dexterity, being a flat 100% reduction would be most beneficial to characters with lower resist/armor.

 

My question though: does this work out in gameplay?

 

On hard difficulty, it seems like a PC can generally take around 4-5 hits before dying (average damage hovering around 20-25% of total). Causing a single MISS is an effective increase then of ~20% of hp. Whereas endurance is a fixed flat hp gain.

 

Meaning that dex's payoff increases along with increases in enemy damage, whereas end's payoff decreases with every increase in enemy damage.

 

Although, to be fair, as you increase in level, your armor and resists also improve, increasing end's payoff...hmm...

 

Does anyone have any actual numbers for how dex actually affects miss rates?? I wanna figure out how this works!

[Randomizer]

Jeff split damage type evasion, being missed by the to hit chance, into three stats:

 

Dexterity - physical, fire, and energy

Endurance - cold, acid, and poison

Intelligence - mental

 

An increase in those stats decreases your chance to be hit by 5% per point.

 

You need dexterity to be twice endurance to get the best damage avoidance and resistance. You don't see poison damage until the second major quest area going to Dhorl Stead in Khemeria. There the rats and spiders really damage characters that rely solely on dexterity.

 

The recommendation is to add runestones that increase evasion (deep) to armor to help against all attacks.

 

Jeff removed it, but during beta testing you could see what the to hit numbers were and that helps gives an idea of what you need to bring the chances down to a reasonable level.

[blueskirt]

Does endurance really improve Cold resistance? I could swear it only improved Poison and Acid resistance in my game.

[Randomizer]

Endurance improves cold evasion.

[another]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Jeff split damage type evasion, being missed by the to hit chance, into three stats:

Dexterity - physical, fire, and energy
Endurance - cold, acid, and poison
Intelligence - mental

An increase in those stats decreases your chance to be hit by 5% per point.

So I assume the way this works is basically 5% chance to evade per point difference against the attack stat? So if I have a 10 dex and I get attacked by a club wielding 8 strengther I have a 10% chance of evasion? Probably the same with the 'proficiency' stats +5%, and there is probably some minimum chance to evade, like 5-10%.

Ok... then...

The way this works then is that every point of evade stat you have above the average enemy attack stat should be worth 5% of resistance mitigated attack damage.

So if the average enemy attack results in 50 damage, each point of evade stat advantage is worth an expected 2.5 hp PER ATTACK. So if you're attacked an average of 10 times in a combat, each evasion stat adv is worth 25 hp.

On the other hand, endurance providing hp gain is worth a flat 5hp per combat session.

Basically then, the EXPECTED HP VALUE of each point of evasion vs raw endurance based hp gain is:

( total_evade_stat - expected_total_hit_stat ) * .05 * expected_damage * ( 1 - resistance ) * expected_attack_count_per_combat_session

VS

The expected HP value of each point of endurance:
5 + ( 5 * resistance )

I just ran some numbers through excel, if this is correct then it's pretty interesting. If anyone but me cares i'll post some graphs.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: another

So I assume the way this works is basically 5% chance to evade per point difference against the attack stat? So if I have a 10 dex and I get attacked by a club wielding 8 strengther I have a 10% chance of evasion? Probably the same with the 'proficiency' stats +5%, and there is probably some minimum chance to evade, like 5-10%.

This is more or less correct, yes, and your analysis seems on the mark. There's a reason why Dex builds are considered so powerful in Avadon.

On Normal difficulty, you can split your stat gains evenly between Dexterity and Endurance and evade nearly everything: on higher difficulties, this isn't practical, and you need to prioritise Dexterity more and find other ways to survive cold and poison attacks.

[another]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

This is more or less correct, yes, and your analysis seems on the mark. There's a reason why Dex builds are considered so powerful in Avadon.

On Normal difficulty, you can split your stat gains evenly between Dexterity and Endurance and evade nearly everything: on higher difficulties, this isn't practical, and you need to prioritise Dexterity more and find other ways to survive cold and poison attacks.

Thanks for the response!

The interesting thing is that (if my formulas above are right) it works sort of counter intuitively. If you want to increase your survivability, its almost entirely based on how much you expect to get attacked. If you expect to get attacked a lot (your tank), you really want to max out evade.

If you expect to get attacked infrequently (your sorc/druid) then you (surprisingly) get a lot more bang for your buck in raw hitpoints from endurance!

(although obviously, pure theory/mathcraft like this doesn't always translate exactly in game - but at least in theory your back line guys benefit more from more hps than evasion (per stat point))

[Randomizer]

Your front line characters are more likely to get surrounded and later in the game you can have 8 monsters hitting you each round plus some range attacks. So dexterity to reduce the number of hits works better than endurance to have the health to be alive and heal up. Not having to heal each round makes a big difference.

 

Also, this isn't mentioned in the instructions, but at harder difficulties there is a hidden armor/resistance penalty so you take more damage than you would normally get on normal difficulty. For torment the penalty is 36% which makes evasion for no damage more important than armor and health.

[MaximB]

In many other games the Ninja's/Scout/Rouge most important skill that you need to always increase was Dexterity because in those games it also effect the damage done.

But as in this game I play the Ninja aka Shadow-walker with swords - should I increase strength more then dexterity ?

What is the proper balance for Avalon regarding the Shadow-walker and the fighter (sword master) regarding Strength and Dexterity ?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: MaximB

But as in this game I play the Ninja aka Shadow-walker with swords - should I increase strength more then dexterity ?
What is the proper balance for Avalon regarding the Shadow-walker and the fighter (sword master) regarding Strength and Dexterity ?

Honestly, the proper balance for maximum power is "invest in Dexterity, ignore Strength, use missile weapons exclusively". Shadowwalkers and Blademasters both have excellent ranged combat abilities. But if you do want a melee character, it's viable to invest mostly in Strength and just accept that you'll be getting hit a whole lot -- it gets pretty painful on higher difficulties, though.

[MaximB]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Originally Posted By: MaximB

But as in this game I play the Ninja aka Shadow-walker with swords - should I increase strength more then dexterity ?
What is the proper balance for Avalon regarding the Shadow-walker and the fighter (sword master) regarding Strength and Dexterity ?

Honestly, the proper balance for maximum power is "invest in Dexterity, ignore Strength, use missile weapons exclusively". Shadowwalkers and Blademasters both have excellent ranged combat abilities. But if you do want a melee character, it's viable to invest mostly in Strength and just accept that you'll be getting hit a whole lot -- it gets pretty painful on higher difficulties, though.

The reason I wanted to use melee weapons is that they do MUCH higher damage then ranged/magic.
I got this almost useless "pet-charmer" in my party and she can't even kill that goblinlike weakling with two hits, while my ninja and swordmaster usually get them with one hit.

Also the shadow-walker have melee based skills, like poison weapon (15%) and it's level 3 (which I don't have yet) "hit everyone" skill - I think they only work with melle weapons.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: MaximB

The reason I wanted to use melee weapons is that they do MUCH higher damage then ranged/magic.
I got this almost useless "pet-charmer" in my party and she can't even kill that goblinlike weakling with two hits, while my ninja and swordmaster usually get them with one hit.

The reason the Shaman's damage output is disappointing is that the Shaman isn't really a damage-dealing class. A missile Shadowwalker actually does more damage than a melee one later on, and a bow-using Blademaster's Sharpshooter Spray is possibly the single best combat ability in the game. Fortunately, at about the halfway point of the game you get the ability to retrain your stats and skills, so you can always start out with a melee character and retrain to a missile build later on.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Also, doesn't the aforementioned 'hit everyone' skill deal damage based on dex anyway? I have a vague recollection of Jeff patching that, but it certainly started out that way.

 

Anyway, you can make a viable melee fighter while primarily pumping dex. He'll do a bit less damage, but he'll also be much better at tanking, and it's worthwhile to remember that this isn't a strict either-or situation. The way prereqs work, you'll be putting a lot of points into melee and missile passive bonuses if you want to get at the upper left column skills, and there will inevitably be some battles in which either the melee or missile option is just better than its counterpart.

 

My recommendation is to pump strength and dex about evenly until encumbrance is no longer a concern (with the occasional point in endurance), then ignore strength to focus on dex with a bit more endurance. This will get you a character who does respectable damage in melee, very good if not quite optimal damage at range, and is capable of taking some hits and dodging more.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Othar Trygvassen: Gentleman

Also, doesn't the aforementioned 'hit everyone' skill deal damage based on dex anyway?

This is correct. All ranged or multitarget attacks are Dex-based. Even things that you'd think really wouldn't be, like Berserk Leap.

[another]

I'm playing on hard (and there are some parts that are really friggin hard), and I'm doing good with pure melee. I generally have a party of blademaster, ninja, sorc (I sort of regret picking a sorc as my main character, since the druid as a buffer would probably work better - and I feel like the sorc is a little underpowered).

 

Originally I planned to have the fighter tank, thief backstab and sorc in the back raining havok - so I spec'd everything offensive except the fighter. Since then, I respecced my ninja to focus more on the middle column and I've been increasing his dex/end with like 3/2 and increasing my fighters damage output with more strength (since he's unkillable at this point anyway).

 

It's not a power gamer build, but its working effectively and its fun.

 

I sort of wish the skill tree was a little better balanced, as the middle column is just so insanely good. I still have my sorc specialized in offensive (left column) but its not power gaming, more just how I want her to play.

[Drayk Armitage]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

All ranged or multitarget attacks are Dex-based.

Correction: all ranged or multitarget attacks that do physical damage are Dex-based. Ranged or multitarget attacks that do any other type of damage (fire, ice, acid, poison, energy) are Dex-based if used by a Blademaster or Shadowwalker, and Int-based if used by a Shaman or Sorceress.

[Randomizer]

A sorceress is not underpowered if you use the middle column. A sorceress can gain the same resistances to damage of any other character and she has an ability to shield herself for 30% for a few rounds. The main weakness is that dexterity to avoid damage means less intelligence to dish out damage. Also fire base main attack hurts in one place.

 

Later in the game focus mastery will allow you to recharge abilities sooner by absorbing magical attacks.

 

You can get through the game on torment difficulty just using a sorceress by herself except for a the hardest optional battles against Zephyrine and Redbeard.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Another: How far are you in the game? Sorceresses really shine in the second half, both because of more equipment/abilities/consumables to reduce cooldown time on her spell nukes, and because of focus mastery. With high levels in the latter she gains huge amounts of magic resistance (and further reduces cooldown when she gets hit with such attacks), which has the odd effect of making her one of the better tank characters in some fights.

[another]

I think my sorc is around lvl 18. I just finished the contested woods quest (going around wrapping up some of the subquests I missed).

 

I guess the reason I see her as underpowered is because:

- I'm running two full melee (unapologetically)

- I've spec'd her offensively for area effect damage.

- The druid would be a much better complement to the two melee (thorns/reflection alone).

 

What can I say, I'm old school, I like my wizards being glass cannons

 

edit: and I reaaalllly want thorns/reflection for that last bit of damage! Man I wish I was running a druid.

 

 

[Ceiling Durkheim]

IMO, thorns/reflection is a bit weak. The status effects themselves are pretty useful, but the duration is depressingly short, meaning there's not much point in casting it before battle, and you have to refresh it frequently in longer fights. As a buffer, I definitely prefer the blademaster.

[Alorael at Large]

My first time through the game I used melee blademaster and shadowwalker with an offensive sorceress most of the time. The sorceress was a bit delicate, but her damage remained impressive throughout the game.

 

—Alorael, who got more mileage out of loading his sorceress down with offensive scarabs than from giving her lots of points on the left side of the tree. It doesn't take much to give your sorceress the ability to spew area damage constantly while still maxing out the middle and giving her decent passive power and survival.