A6 - Maximizing Spellcasting Power

[So Much Killing]

I've read through many threads here, and I'm still a bit unclear on which attributes/skills/disciplines/whatever increase the damage (or benefits) of spells. It's clear the Priest (or Mage) Spells and Spellcraft skills do, but what else?

 

There was some suggestion that Lethal Blow applied to some spells, but there never seemed a definitive answer. What about anatomy? If I go high enough with Quick Action will the spell hit the guy twice?

 

What about battle disciplines like Mighty Blow?

 

Help me help my magic users kill more evil in the name of peace.

 

 

[Alorael at Large]

I'm not sure about Lethal Blow or Anatomy. My gut instinct is no, especially with the latter, but I have zero data to back that up. Quick Action doesn't help. Battle Disciplines do. A point in Mage/Priest Spells, a point in Spellcraft, or a level in a specific spell will all have the same effect.

 

—Alorael, can add that battle disciplines will only have an effect on one target. For multi-target spells, that one especially unlucky enemy is random.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: So Much Killing

There was some suggestion that Lethal Blow applied to some spells, but there never seemed a definitive answer. What about anatomy? If I go high enough with Quick Action will the spell hit the guy twice?

I've never seen any of these have any effect in combat except for when attacking with melee weapons.

[GIFTCockroach]

Lethal Blow applies to single target damage spells, anatomy and quick action don't apply at all.

[So Much Killing]

Thanks for the answers! Now I guess the question is whether it is worth it to do the extra training in melee, anatomy, blademaster, and lethal blow to get some extra damage sometimes on some spells, or just dump those SP into spellcraft and improve everything across the board?

 

Let's see: Assuming I buy all of the training I can get (rather than using sp), I'm already training melee to 6 to get quick strike, so I need just one there, so that's 5 sp. Intelligence and strength will get there anyway, so they're not an issue. I need 5 each of anatomy and blademaster, so that's 8 and 29 sp, respectively. If I take lethal to the 10-cap, that costs 37. So that's 79 sp to get a 40% increase in damage 40% of the time on some spells. So that's like a 16% average increase on those spells.

 

If I have a 20 spellcraft, of which I've bought 10 and gotten 10 from traits and training, so I start at 8 sp/level, I get something like 8 levels of spellcraft for 79 sp. If I'm at 20 mage/priest, those 8 levels are like a 20% bonus to every spell I cast.

 

Seems like a no-brainer: lethal blow isn't worth it.

 

Thoughts?

[everyday847]

It depends on the situation. There are situations in which you want higher consistent damage (and the spellcraft route is thus profitable) and situations in which you would actually benefit more from damage with higher variance but a lower average. (You could string three 140% hits together and kill a baddie, even if infrequently, while it would always take four 120% hits to do so. Of course, the 120% hits are strongly advantaged if you're fighting a single boss that'll take you a large number of hits to kill.)

 

Essentially, variance has value in and of itself because the enemies you fight have discrete chunks of HP that define their lives. If the goal of the game was to do x HP of damage to the game world, and all damage wasted on one enemy would spill over into the next, the higher average would be decisively better in every situation.

[Dantius]

It is DEFINITELY worth training your spellcasters up until the point where they have the Adrenaline rush battle dicipline. After that, there's really no point in advancing their battle skills further.

 

IIRC, Adrenaline rush requires 14 battle skill points- every point in swords/poles counts as 1 point, and every point in bows/thrown counts as 1/2 a point.

[So Much Killing]

Originally Posted By: everyday847

Essentially, variance has value in and of itself because the enemies you fight have discrete chunks of HP that define their lives. If the goal of the game was to do x HP of damage to the game world, and all damage wasted on one enemy would spill over into the next, the higher average would be decisively better in every situation.

Good point, I hadn't thought about that. But I'm still leaning toward the spellcraft. My reasoning is that it is basically a wash on the individual damage (with your point duly noted, and maybe giving a slight edge to lethal blow), but that for AoE spells, buffs, healing, stun, control foe, etc., the advantage would go decidedly to spellcraft.

[So Much Killing]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

It is DEFINITELY worth training your spellcasters up until the point where they have the Adrenaline rush battle dicipline. After that, there's really no point in advancing their battle skills further.

IIRC, Adrenaline rush requires 14 battle skill points- every point in swords/poles counts as 1 point, and every point in bows/thrown counts as 1/2 a point.

Another good point. So I can buy three points each melee and poles without using sp, and I need three more in one of them to unlock quick strike, so that brings me to 9. My spellcasters are Nephil, so I'll get some freebie bows/thrown, which should put me there without having to use many (or any) sp. Sweet.

[Debo]

I just find Lethal Blow + Lightning Spray to be really entertaining. It's awesome seeing a damage spread of something like 80 - 200 - 80, where the first guy in the chain just gets hammered compared to his buddies.

 

I can see how quick strike would be cool on casters, but I just don't feel like it's worth it. Instead, I have the Quicksilver Bulwark and the + 1 battle speed sandals to my priest so that she always gets two turns guaranteed -- there's very little she can't recover us from when her turn comes round. Relying on quick strike makes me nervous for cases like that.

 

Otherwise, when I really want to hammer the bad guys, adrenaline rush is always there...

 

For a lot of the game, though, I notice that having my mage summon 2 monsters before the entire party buffs itself is more than enough to get through most fights, esp. with Arcane Summon. I let my mage spend a lot of his turns throwing stuff or poisoning the HPmongers.

 

Then again, I'm only playing on Normal...

[Randomizer]

Don't forget you can buy in Dharmon blessing from the priest for your entire party in melee, pole, bows and thrown weapons for 3 towards battle disciplines.

[Serene Tempest]

Adrenaline rush on spellcasters is awesome - I ran two dedicated spellcasters and a priest/tank hybrid, and nine area-of-effect spells will outright kill many groups of enemies in one round, and put a serious dent almost all others. As far as mazimizing spellcasting power, once you get to diminishing returns on investment in mage/priest spells, spellcraft, and magic efficiency, it's worth it to return to investing in melee skills to unlock battle frenzy. There are some fights where the enemies are too tough to wipe out in a single round with adreneline rush, so two spells per round for eight out of every twelve is better than two extra spells every eight rounds. Also, getting Cloak of the Arcane makes a big difference if you're going this route.

 

This is mostly about your endgame though. Early on, you want to get lightning spray and mass healing as soon as possible while using trainers to work your melee skills up to adrenaline rush (you can get 9 points from trainers, leaving you the necessity of only training another 6), and then start building up spellcraft to unlock magic efficiency.

[So Much Killing]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Don't forget you can buy in Dharmon blessing from the priest for your entire party in melee, pole, bows and thrown weapons for 3 towards battle disciplines.

Right. Thanks! I forgot about that. That means I can get 9 for no sp. A few more for being a cat, and and I can get the rush on the cheap.

[So Much Killing]

Originally Posted By: Serene Tempest

There are some fights where the enemies are too tough to wipe out in a single round with adreneline rush, so two spells per round for eight out of every twelve is better than two extra spells every eight rounds.

The conventional wisdom around here is that it is possible to use a combination of battle speed items and quick strike (from both items and sp) to get everyone in the party up to 10 AP per round, giving them 2 attacks every round. I haven't done the math, but I wonder if your way is cheaper? There is a thread that suggests that battle frenzy isn't worth the investment. I'll have to have another look at it.

[Randomizer]

Battle frenzy no longer gives the bonus damage it did in Avernum 5. With enough battle fatigue reducing items and blademaster skill you can easily use mighty blow every few rounds and just find other ways to increase AP to get two attacks.