Nephil Archer Traits

[steelytan]

I'm gearing up for a leisurely trip through A5, and I'm wondering if anyone could share some advice on traits for my Nephil Archer. My A4 party had a FoF Mage; I liked being able to cast 2 spells a round once I had the mercuric leather. In that campaign, I regretted not giving my Nephil Archer FoF since all he did was shoot off one arrow each round.

 

However, from what I've read, it seems for my A5 party, I'd do well to give everyone EW or DT (including magic users) because of the fatigue reduction that blademaster gives. So I'm left choosing two of three traits for the Nephil: DT, FoF, and Deadeye. I hear people saying FoF isn't as good with the new movement rules, but it seems to me that it would still give the archer the advantage of being able to shoot twice each round once he picks up something mercuric. Question is, would I be better off with Deadeye and DT, waiting for the double shot until more AP bonusing items show up?

 

Anyone try running a FoF archer through to the endgame?

 

The rest of the party:

Slith Soldier EW

Nephil Mage DT

Nephil Priest DT

 

Planning to play on hard.

 

Actually, I just read the Death of the Hybrid thread, and it sounds like a pure archer (plus tool use) isn't such a hot idea. But I'm interested in people's thoughts.

[Randomizer]

I've haven't used Fast on Feet since Exile, but I don't think you get a guaranteed extra AP each round. You are better off using haste spell or speed potion.

 

Personally for any fighter I go with DT and EW for the sharpshooter and blademaster bonuses. Parry is also nice since it still works against missle attacks even though not as well.

 

The difference in final levels with a high experience penalty and a lower one will only be about a level so high experience penalties no longer hurt a character since A4.

[ex post slarto]

Action points work rather differently in A5. Fast on Feet won't be worth it.

 

DT is worth it for everyone. Really, if you're asking for advice, read the threads on traits and give everyone DT and another useful trait (EW, NM, PS). Deadeye is okay for a dedicated archer but plunking points into archery abilities very quickly becomes a game of tiny, tiny returns.

[Alorael at Large]

Fast on Feet really stopped being amazing when the "wait" command disappeared.

 

—Alorael, who very much liked being able to arrange for his casters to get to strike first with several spells before giving the opposition a chance to move.

[Marak]

Not to mention that Archers in general are pretty lackluster in A5. Even with Sharpshooter and Dexterity and Bows all pumped up to stupid-high levels their damage always comes out to a little less than what a sword & board fighter is doing (read: not much).

 

Also, FoF is pretty meh for A5 as well. Once every 3 turns (or so, it's random), you'll get 2 bonus AP. Therefore, on said "FoF Rounds", you can move 2 whole squares and still shoot twice (if Hasted), or stand still and fire twice (if not hasted).

 

All in all, it'n not really comparable to the bonuses from other Traits:

 

Natural Mage - wear any armor, still cast anything; free Mage Spell levels; Magical Efficiency

 

Elite Warrior - bonus Encumbrance (can wear more gear without AP Penalties than a character without Elite Warrior); free levels of Parry and Blademaster

 

Pure Spirit - free Priest Spell levels; Magical Efficiency

[ex post slarto]

I believe it's still a 25% chance to activate.

[Marak]

Fine, change "Once every 3 turns (or so,"

to "Once every 4 turns (or so,"

 

[steelytan]

Thanks for the crunchy stuff; I couldn't find it looking at other threads.

 

I'm just going to go with the Synergy party pack:

1) Melee (nephil or human) EW/DT

2) Pole/thief (slith) EW/DT

3) Priest/archer (nephil) DT/PS

4) Mage/minor archer (nephil or human) DT/NM

 

But I do have a question about how far to drive the archer traits for the warriors. In my A4 games, once my melee fighter picked up a lot of armor, he couldn't hit with his ranged attacks (toward the end of the Eastern Gallery). I was always reluctant to spend SP on Dex because I didn't think I'd get as much return on that investment as I would pushing for Parry and Riposte. (I also found that a high gymnastics score was worthless in the last third of the game.)

 

How far do people push archery for melee fighters? Is it worth spending SP on Dex?

 

Cheers,

[Randomizer]

Beyond normal difficulty, dexterity is only needed for order of attack. Quick action and gymnastics help there too. Personally I only have dexterity at 5 to get parry.

 

Since A5 has battle disciplines, increasing bows actually helps get higher battle disciplines. It's not as cost effective as melee or pole weapons, but you probably won't wait for the Tranquility trainer for your fighters.

 

I usually put a few skill points towards bows and thrown weapons for a melee fighter just to get another battle discipline. I've never pushed archery, but I use it when I don't want to rush up for melee or need to deal with someone that uses an ability to create spines.

[ex post slarto]

Also keep in mind that the high accuracy reduction armor pieces are often worthless. Armor damage reduction is all multiplied together. When your reduction before adding heavier armor is already 50-60%, upgrading a 3% helmet to a 5% helmet will make almost no visible difference, etc.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: The Slave of Duty

Fast on Feet really stopped being amazing when the "wait" command disappeared.

—Alorael, who very much liked being able to arrange for his casters to get to strike first with several spells before giving the opposition a chance to move.

I know what you mean; I used to use Fast on Feet a lot, especially in combination with Natural Mage. Then when "Wait" was removed, so did all usefulness for Fast on Feet.

Originally Posted By: Marak

Not to mention that Archers in general are pretty lackluster in A5. Even with Sharpshooter and Dexterity and Bows all pumped up to stupid-high levels their damage always comes out to a little less than what a sword & board fighter is doing (read: not much).

Tell me about it. I don't use archery at all that much anymore unless I have no other choice. As I've said in other threads, the only good missile weapons I've found were some god arrows I made for myself in BoX.

[Marak]

Re: Steelytan

 

I don't push archery at all, at least in A5. At most, I'll put 2 points in Bows and 2 points in Thrown simply because that adds +2 to my Weapon Skill and gets me 2 "points" closer to Battle Frenzy for "only" 8 Skill Points.

 

My front-line Fighter/Meat Shield/Tankie-person usually ends up with a Bow equipped because I hate leaving equipment slots empty, not because he ever actually shoots the stupid thing.

 

However, having said all that, I have to say that those Bows near the end of the game that shoot Lightning/Submission arrows or that add to Quick Action are sort of worth it as Stat Sticks, or for a quick ranged debuffing of whatever monster you're going to charge up and melee next round.

 

It's too bad really, I enjoy having an Archer/Thief in my Party but in A5 that character is near-worthless as a damage dealer and serves only 2 purposes: with high Dex and Sharpshooter and Gymnastics, they pretty much always go first, so their role is to shoot something with Shieldbreaker or Leg Sweep in order to soften it up for the real damage dealers: the Mages and (to a lesser extent) the Melee fighter. Oh, and they unlock things. Wheeee.

[steelytan]

Originally Posted By: Iudexter

Also keep in mind that the high accuracy reduction armor pieces are often worthless. Armor damage reduction is all multiplied together. When your reduction before adding heavier armor is already 50-60%, upgrading a 3% helmet to a 5% helmet will make almost no visible difference, etc.

Right. Actually, when I glanced through the instructions that come with the game, I realized that tin helmets are worth even less than I thought, since the 5% damage reduction isn't a flat reduction off 100% but comes out of whatever percentage is left after other pieces of armor have been applied.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: steelytan

Right. Actually, when I glanced through the instructions that come with the game, I realized that tin helmets are worth even less than I thought, since the 5% damage reduction isn't a flat reduction off 100% but comes out of whatever percentage is left after other pieces of armor have been applied.

It still means you'll always take 5% less damage than you would without the helmet. Still, it's almost always better to go with whatever gear gives the best stat bonuses, since the difference between the best light armour and the best heavy armour is probably worth about 1 or 2 points of Endurance in terms of survivability.

[Alorael at Large]

95% versus 100% is important 19% versus 20% is negligible. So go with stat bonuses.

 

—Alorael, who is just trying to stave off the inevitable math perplexity. He'll see how well it works. He won't see how necessary it was.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: 'Twerewolf dog

95% versus 100% is important 19% versus 20% is negligible. So go with stat bonuses.

Well, it's not negligible if you get hit five times.

[Alorael at Large]

With the kinds of damage dealt in Avernum and the likely rounding, it's negligible.

 

—Alorael, who of course shouldn't assume any kind of sanity in rounding or number generation in Avernum.

[Erebus the Black]

If wer'e already talking about armor's damage reduction,

does anyone know in what order does the armor reduce damage?

(e.g. breast, legging, helmet, shield, weapon, ring, necklace, cloak, boots)

[Lilith]

It doesn't matter. Multiplication is commutative: that means you'll get exactly the same result no matter what order you apply each piece of armour in.

[Dantius]

So 5x6 is the same as 6x5. Or, more practially:

 

You have a 50% piece of armor and a 10% piece. If you take the 50 first, you are left with 50 remaining. 10% of 50 is 5, and 5+50 = 55. If, however, you take the 10 first, you are left with 90,half of which is 45. 45+10 = 55 as well. Basically, just the more complex way of saying what Thuryl said.

[Erebus the Black]

no,

just can't see it,

if you want me to believe you'll just have to prove it from the Peano axioms.

If not let's just leave it at that.

(And I'm not talking about the commutativity, but about the subtraction which isn't)

[ex post slarto]

There's no subtraction involved. With the 50% armor and 10% helmet, you get:

 

1.0 * 0.5 = 0.5

0.5 * 0.9 = 0.45 = Multiplier Used to Apply Damage Reduction

 

1.0 * 0.9 = 0.9

0.9 * 0.5 = 0.45 = Multiplier Used to Apply Damage Reduction

[Erebus the Black]

and how does that fit with the manual?

(read the manual, then answer)

[steelytan]

By the way, thanks to all for the advice. This is my third time playing through the demo area, and everything's running much more smoothly.

 

Cheers,

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: avatar42

and how does that fit with the manual?
(read the manual, then answer)

Well, okay, let's look at what the manual has to say about armour:

Wearing armor reduces the damage you take from blows. Each piece of armor reduces the damage from attacks by a certain percentage. If you’re wearing several pieces of armor, the reductions are applied one at a time. For example, if you’re wearing a breastplate that is 30% armor and a shield that is 10% armor, each blow is reduced by 30% and then 10% (so being hit for base 100 damage means actually taking 63 points).

When it says "reduced by 30% and then 10%", it clearly does not mean that 30% and then 10% are both subtracted from the original damage - that would mean a hit for 100 base damage would do 60 points of damage, not 63.

What it does mean is that the base damage is reduced by 30% and then the reduced damage is reduced by a further 10%. "Reducing by 30%" is equivalent to multiplying by 0.7 (100% - 30%) and "reducing by 10%" is equivalent to multiplying by 0.9 (100% - 10%).

0.7 * 0.9 = 0.63
0.9 * 0.7 = 0.63

It doesn't matter what order you apply the reductions in. Reducing damage by 30% and then reducing the reduced damage by another 10% is exactly equivalent to reducing damage by 10% and then reducing the reduced damage by another 30%.

[Dantius]

There's a manual? Are you talking about the hint book? I never buy those, I figure the walkthroughs and the forum should save me the ten bucks needed to buy it.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

When it says "reduced by 30% and then 10%", it clearly does not mean that 30% and then 10% are both subtracted from the original damage - that would mean a hit for 100 base damage would do 60 points of damage, not 63.

What it does mean is that the base damage is reduced by 30% and then the reduced damage is reduced by a further 10%. "Reducing by 30%" is equivalent to multiplying by 0.7 (100% - 30%) and "reducing by 10%" is equivalent to multiplying by 0.9 (100% - 10%).

0.7 * 0.9 = 0.63
0.9 * 0.7 = 0.63

It doesn't matter what order you apply the reductions in. Reducing damage by 30% and then reducing the reduced damage by another 10% is exactly equivalent to reducing damage by 10% and then reducing the reduced damage by another 30%.

Which is why you can have several pieces of armor that give you a combined additive total of 100% damage reduction, and yet still take damage. You can wear ten items that reduce your damage by 10% each, and you'd block only about 65% to 70% of the original damage, depending on how you do the rounding.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

There's a manual? Are you talking about the hint book? I never buy those, I figure the walkthroughs and the forum should save me the ten bucks needed to buy it.

In the folder you installed the game into, there's a PDF instruction manual.

[Erebus the Black]

OK, so what you're saying is that the formula is:

(base damage)*(1-breast)*(1-pants)*(1-boots)*...=reduced damage

and so the order of the single values do not matter.

However I read somewhere on these forums that the percentages are also the chance for these armor pieces to actually activate (succeed to block damage) or some such, is that percentage also comutative?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: avatar42

OK, so what you're saying is that the formula is:
(base damage)*(1-breast)*(1-pants)*(1-boots)*...=reduced damage
and so the order of the single values do not matter.

Yup.

Quote:

However I read somewhere on these forums that the percentages are also the chance for these armor pieces to actually activate (succeed to block damage) or some such, is that percentage also comutative?

I don't know where you read that, but it's not true.

In earlier games in the Avernum series, each piece of armour had a fixed chance to apply its protection (shields had a 50% chance, body armour had an 80% chance, and so on). These probabilities were all independent of each other, so you could get protection from your shield, your armour, both, or neither. But that's not true for Avernum 4 and 5: all armour always provides its protection.

[ex post slarto]

That is incorrect. There is no roll for armor to "activate" -- it is always active.

 

What you may have read is Thuryl's theory (uncontested) that applying 30% damage reduction does not actually mean multiplying by 0.7. Instead, it means that every single point of damage you take has a 30% chance -- INDIVIDUALLY -- of being blocked. Thus, if you wear only one armor item, a 30% item, and are hit for 152 damage, you'd make 152 rolls, and on average you'd block 30% of the damage. This explains the variation in actual blocked damage quite nicely.

 

It is unclear under this theory if the reduction %s are actually multiplied together and just applied once, or if this process is repeated for each piece of armor. In other words, given two pieces are armor at 30% and 10%, it's unclear if you just roll 152 times and discard every point that rolls over .63, or if you roll 152 times discarding over .7, and then roll for undiscarded damage discarding over .9. However, I believe the distribution of results is identical either way, so it doesn't matter.