Untamed Banana Slug

No one remembered Barzhal in GF3-GF5...

From memory, Geneforge 2 isn't so bad money-wise simply because there are very few opportunities to pay for training in skills early on. In fact, one of the trainers for the Barzites will train you in as many points of Quick Action as you desire, irrelevant of how many skill points you invested in Quick Action previously. I don't remember ever having financial troubles, although I did take Master1's advice of 'budgeting'. Purchasing two levels of a spell (or even one, if you can find a canister) is wasteful, except for the dirt cheap spells (war blessing). Purchasing levels of lousy creations (battle alpha, drakon) is wasteful. Buying anything from a merchant is wasteful. On the other hand, Avernum 5 has many opportunities to pay for training in skills early on, and this really hamstrings your characters for a major portion of the game, as you have to hold off training in those skills to accumulate the necessary gold. It takes forever to amass the gold required to pay for 3 points of nature lore, first aid and hardiness for each character, and 3 points of spellcraft and magery for your casters. Note that we haven't even considering spells you might be tempted to purchase, and items that you may want to craft. If you're min-maxing in A4/A5, gold is the limiting factor.

Until you get the Puresteel Blade, the Charmed Falchion is the best sword, and you can get it relatively early in the game (at Noyde Pass). Switch between the Oozing Sword and Frozen Blade in combat to inflict curse and acid, but switch back to the Charmed Falchion for the massive bonus to defense afterwards.

Ghaldring would most likely be remembered. After all, his Rebellion did conquer over half a continent and pose a serious challenge to Shaper rule, after centuries of enforced 'peace'.

I wonder if you can still destroy/release the Purity Agent if you helped Taygen create it?

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin If alwan adopted ghaldrins methods he would be more like astoria, wouldnt he...a traitor. That's a tricky one. If assassinating particular members of the government is required for the preservation of your nation, I wouldn't call it treason. There is a huge difference between Alwan killing councilors like Astoria (who is selling out her nation to the Rebels), and Astoria facilitating the Rebel's war against the nation she administrates. Quote: The rebels desztabalize shaper rule by kiling more innocent people then necesarry. Whether they kill 'more than necessary' depends on who you ask. Quote: And you think that everyone should be allowed to practice shaping freely. Personally, yes. Everyone should be allowed to practice Shaping freely, up until the point it harms another against their will. Once that happens, execution time. But again, I'd like to point out that even with the Shapers dethroned, it is still possible for whoever replaces them to put regulations in place. No Shapers does not necessarily = anarchy, it would fall to the creations and humans to decide what is best for them. Quote: And look at the rebel ending. wehat happened to ghaldring? He overextended. Either way, he did achieve the Rebellion's primary purpose, which was to blugdeon the Shapers into submission and 'take their free'. Quote: And how is ghaldrins unbound different from the purity agent? How is the Holocaust different from the firebombing of Japan?

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin But you have to remember that everyone(human) has the ability to test and be a shapers, But the selection process isn't democratic, and it sure isn't based on merit alone. Loyalty to the Shapers and a dogmatic belief in the current status quo (Shapers on top, creations at the bottom) is essential if you are to be accepted to the Shaper order. In otherwords, if you want to learn how to Shape, you must place the Shapers on a pedestal and regard everyone else as inferior. Quote: and particular the humans that dont make it become very jealous of the ones who worked hard to become what they are. And who can blame them? It's hardly fair (or sensible) that only Shapers have any say regarding Shaping, especially since Shaping affects *everyone*. "Gee, sorry our failed experiments are attacking you, can you please fight them off for us? And no, you are forbidden from Shaping creations to defend yourself against the rogues that we are responsible for inciting to violence. We made the mistake, now you clean it up without gloves." Quote: The shaper council may be acting irrationaly now, when under pressure yes. But that's the thing, the Shapers justify their autocratic and downright oppressive rule by claiming that they are the only ones who are responsible enough to wield the power of Shaping and rule over a continent. As the Geneforge series demonstrates, this claim is bunk. The Shapers have failed to use their powers and govern responsibly. If people like Taygen are allowed to Shape, then why can't Ghaldring? If a self-interested individual like Rawal is able to ascend to the position of head councilor, why can't Akhari? Quote: but the rebels act irrationaly always. Not true. Quote: They were pushed towards desperation to win, and in that desperation they released the unbound killing innocent people. Innocent people die in war, that's inevitable. The Rebellion unleashed the Unbound to destabilise Shaper rule, and it worked. Quote: Each of the council memebers is trying to end the war in his/her way...is taygens plan worse then releasing the unbound, Yes, since it comprises of the intentional genocide of multiple intelligent species, the very species that the Shapers have been oppressing and forcing into servitude for centuries. The Unbound are more along the lines of indiscriminant destruction, whose overall aim is the destablisation of the Shaper regime. The Holocaust vs. the carpet bombing of German cities comes to mind. Quote: People respond to threats differently. The shapers are only human The Shapers like to claim that they are more than human, and use that claim as a justification as to why they monopolise power. But when they mess up, we should overlook it because they are 'only human'? No, sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Quote: and they are scared. Not nearly as much as the Outsider humans who they throw on the front lines. Quote: They have a threat and it risks destroying all they've worked for. That's what happens when you become decadent. If the Shaper Council can't fight off a bunch of rabble despite having centuries of experience in Shaping under their belt, along with near limitless resources and two (err, I mean one) entire continent, then maybe they don't deserve to be on top. Quote: The councils once arrogant behaviour is what kept them in power. Once some shapers started to lose confidence thats when they started to lose. The Shapers are still arrogant, it's just that that arrogance is no longer deserved. They went from the battlefields to the research chambers, they enlisted Outsider humans to do their fighting for them, they became insular and separated from worldly affairs, and they stopped acting decisively. Quote: If there are servilles that want to escape from the dera reachs...i let them because i know what taygen is like. So does the rest of the Council, but they do nothing. Perhaps Alwan should have adopted Ghaldring's method of operation when it comes to dealing with his fellow Councilors, who do nothing but drag their heels. "He disagreed with me. Multiple times. Challenging me once shows spirit. More than that, and you are interfering with the war against the Shapers." Quote: i respect ghalddrin, yet ghaldrin is becoming more and more shaper like. Anyway, isn't that a good thing, given how much you favour the Shapers? Look at it this way, Ghaldring's totalitarian rule would probably be more efficient and free than that of the Shaper regime. Why have a squabbling corrupt oligarchy ruling over everything and getting nothing done, when you can have a single decisive dictator who acts, reacts, and adapts? If a rebellion ever rose up under drakon rule, Ghaldring would have no qualms whatsoever with entering the fray and scissorkicking anyone who dares defy him.

You can get your creations in via a route other than the lab, but I've forgotten how. Maybe the main door to Ghaldring's throne room opens up once you reach him?

You can't join Ghaldring's sect because you killed his mortal enemy?! Hahahahah, oh man, *that* is irony. Man, can you imagine the exchange that would occur off screen? Ghaldring: "Ahh, my pawn. How goes your quest to deliver my message to Alwan?" PC: *quivering* "Errr, about that. I was sort of handing the message to Alwan when I slipped and gave him a fatal paper cut." Ghaldring: *shocked* "A fatal papercut?!" PC: "Yeah, that papyrus sliced open his jugular, it was actually quite messy. I got blood all over my nice lifecrafter robes, and even worse, your message! It's illegible. Although perhaps if we get it identified by the local sage..." Ghaldring: "YESSS! EVERYTHING IS COMING UP GHALDRING!" PC: *confused* "Err, but what about the message, my lord?" Ghaldring: *gives the PC a perplexed look, which essentially says "Goddamn retarded humanoids. Every day I work with them, I'm reminded why we drakons are the superior race"*

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin I agree that if seriviles rebel, they have the right to fight and as do drayks. Drakons just want to horde the shapers powers for themselves and the humans are just totaly jealous. i would still got with the shapers though because in my opinion shaping is a volatile art with the potential to cause great harm so only a select few who demonstrate the nesecary control should be allowed to use this. Also i dont think that the rebels leading terrestia would lead to any more peace then what the shapers have brought. Though the shapers are strict they kept their world in relatice peace until the rebels came. Yes, I can understand why some would argue in favour of the Shapers. "The Shapers, for all their faults and mess-ups, have managed to keep the peace (note: by suppressing dissent with violence and fear. Let's not forget that) up until recently. If they are removed from power, then somebody far worse could fill the power vacuum. Better the devil you know than the drakon you don't." Revolution does indeed introduce uncertainties. What would occur after the Shapers were dethroned *is* uncertain, it could result in a scenario far worse. But what is certain is that life under the Shapers for serviles and other intelligent creations sucks, and it isn't much better for any humans who chafe under the Shaper's autocratic and oppressive rule. I find the probability of things being better after Shaper rule higher than them being worse. Also note that simply because the Shapers as a caste would cease to exist doesn't necessarily mean that there wouldn't be any regulations regarding Shaping. The only difference is that those regulations could be decided upon by society as a whole, instead of just a privileged caste. I suspect that this is what happens in both rebel endings. All intelligent creations and humans would have an input, which is only fair, since Shaping does effect them. To be honest, one of the main reasons I wouldn't side with the Shapers is simply because I couldn't perpetrate the actions you are expected to commit as a loyalist. Loyalist behaviour in the game includes killing: - Fleeing servile refugees. - An intelligent thahd who is simply trying to protect his friends - Citizens engaging in thoughtcrime (Trakovites). - Serviles in concentration camps who dare express outrage at their treatment. And I can't in good conscience do the above. I also have little respect for the Shaper Council. One Councilor is selfish and flaunts the laws, another backstabs her own soldiers to negotiate a surrender, two have no backbone and are manipulated like puppets, and one is totally insane (although clever, admittedly). Alwan is respectable, and Shema is arguably OK, but the rest aren't worthy of ruling two (oops, I mean one) continent. Worse yet, the Shaper Council essentially uses its own Outsider citizens and younger Shapers as meatshields. Have you ever noticed that it is the Outsiders and lower ranked Shapers who do the bulk of the fighting, the same people who the fatcats at the top deny the power to? On the flip side, check out the drakons. Every drakon is hardcore and willing to take calculated risks. For crying out loud, in the Ghaldring ending it is the drakon army who spearheads the attack on the coastal provinces, they actually tell the human and servile warriors to bugger off to administer the conquered territories. Which, in hindsight, was sort of a dumb move, but at least I can respect Ghaldring and Akhari more than 6 out of the 7 members on the Shaper Council. And yeah, the drakons as a whole aren't exactly a pleasant species, but I can sympathise. They *were* brought into a world where they were immediately targeted for extermination by the dominant force. And progressive self-shaping has made them rather arrogant, but as the drakons point out, they self-shape so that they have the strength to 'take their free'. They use self-shaping as a survival mechanism, similar to buffing up in prison so that you don't get sodomised in the showers. Had the Shapers attempted to defuse the insurrection with diplomacy, instead of escalating it with "Kill all drakons!", then perhaps the incentive afforded to drakons to self-shape into haughty monstrosities would have disappeared.

Who wants the shredbugs destroyed?

Open z61qrtrsdlg.txt for Geneforge 1, and you'll find the following: Quote: This is Trajkov's journal. It is surprisingly short. You open it and begin to read. His large vocabulary, twisted syntax, and bad handwriting make it slow going, but you find one section of great interest."; text3 = "Goettsch had fled, and he took the gauntlets with him. Plans to lure another Shaper here have begun, but they will take time. I am furious. Now I not only need guidance and assistance, but I need to regain the gloves."; text4 = "The other gloves, the ones I still have, are too damaged. I think. Goettsch said they could not be repaired, but he may be wrong. He was clear on one point, though. Only with the gloves may the power of the Geneforge be drawn."; text5 = "I will succeed. I will gain the power. And Goettsch will be the first to pay. If I do not kill him, one of my agents will."; text6 = "If he goes to Vietnam, I want a Sholai in a bowl of rice ready to bust a cap in his ass."; code = if (get_sdf(100,8) < 4) { clear_strings(); add_string(1); } else { remove_string(1); remove_string(6); Hehehe.

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin I just want to know who is a loyalist and who is a rebel and who is a trakovite. I would also like for you to state your reason. I already have a good idea of whose what but i just want to know every bodies opinion. This is not a debate on whose wrong and whose right because we all know what that will degenerate into. If I lived in the Geneforge universe, I'd definitely throw my lot in with the Rebels. Why? 1. The Shapers are far too autocratic for my tastes. For goodness sakes, you can't even harbour certain opinions without being targeted for death. 2. The Shapers can't govern effectively. This is demonstrated by their inability to meet a threat to their Empire. Some people have pointed out 'But they are under a lot of pressure." Well yeah, that's one of the means by which you judge the value of a government, by observing how well it responds to internal and external threats. 3. Many classes of independent creations are strong and intelligent enough to fight for their freedom, so hey, let them. These sapient beings are made to be slaves and then targeted for extermination when they refuse to allow their will to be crushed. Is it any surprise that they fight back?

I was playing as a warrior, so I meleed any Unbound, forcing them to use their physical attack. Edit: I just loaded up an old save game. Upon reaching the Storm Plains, my leveled up cyroas have about 40 less hp compared with a freshly created drayk.

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Quote: Are you kidding? I kept my Cryoas up to the Dera Reaches, and they were still pulling their weight. On Torment? Yes.

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan One. I have found that Fire Creations are the worst brand of Creations in the game. The *worst*? No way. They aren't as good as they were in Geneforge 1, but a number of them still have their uses. Admittedly a fair number of them suck, but the same can be said of Battle Creations. Quote: The first creation I will pull out is the Fyora. It attacks with Fire damage. The Fyora has seen some nerfing from the older games. A Fyora will not be able to hold it's own. Of course not, it's your lowest level creation and is dirt cheap, which is why you make several. Fire damage is also nice in this game, because fire resistance isn't as prevalent as magic resistance. Quote: It should be used as a support creation. Meaning, have one with a pack of thahds. Thahds? I never use thahds, despite their huge bonus to hit points they seem to die way to quickly. Quote: Once you enter the Mera-Tev, however, you will begin to experience difficulties with the Cryoa. It is not strong enough to take more than a few hits. So, basically, you will want to replace the Cryoa for another creation. Are you kidding? I kept my Cryoas up to the Dera Reaches, and they were still pulling their weight. Quote: Only make them for the occasional use when you meet a creation that is weak against Ice (The Clawbugs near the road to Kratoa-Kel, for example). Presuming you have a creation to keep fight in melee, of course. But that's the thing, almost EVERYTHING is weak against ice. Quote: The next creation is the Roamer. ... They are a bit too expensive for their worth Roamers are overpriced Artila, without the decent magic resistance. Quote: The Drayk is a solid creation. Yep. Quote: The Cryodrayk, as the name suggests, is an upgrade of the Drayk. Except it shoots ice, which makes it very useful. Quote: Kyshakks are a personal favorite of mine, Not mine. They run out of energy way to fast. Quote: The Drakon is a good creation. And inferior to the War Trall. Yes, yes, we know. Good post, by the way.

Originally Posted By: Velzan Hello Again People of the SpiderWeb This thread is for two things One. There are a lot of weapons in the geneforge series many powerful whats your Ultimate weapon? mines the Puresteel soulblade with Golden crystal. Now for the second Geneforge 5 is the last in the series but i wonder how many people would like to have a GF6 based in the sholai lands (just off the top of my head) So Below is a poll of Yes or No) Enjoy I vote Yes. The regular Puresteel Blade does more damage than the Puresteel Soulblade.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Also, the fact that the ornks in Kaz survive the release of the shredbugs is simply ridiculous. Quote: *She* . It's not, actually. To be honest, I'm not sure what pronoun to use. Just pick something neutral, I guess. Or just sidestep the question, like Dikiyoba does. Whatever floats your boat. Wait, what? From what I've seen on the photo thread, you're *all* woman.

Wait, isn't GF3 the game with the Creator's Belt?

Wouldn't the Girdle of Life be a better choice? Not having adequate carrying capacity is inconvenient, running out of hit points is, well, fatal.

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba Dikiyoba's cryoa would wipe the floor with all your fat fyoras. Get real. My fyoras are on the Atkin's diet.

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin I think he/she's saying G5 makes no sense all in all. *She* . And Diki is pointing out that GF5's plot often isn't consistent with what occurred in the prequels. Just off the top of my head: The second continent just disappeared, and Litalia's tale of how she came to join Ghaldring is altered. Added to which, the plot of GF5 isn't even internally consistent. Taygen's head researcher states that the Purity Agent *probably* won't work against the Unbound and drakons, Taygen tells the council that it *won't* work against the Unbound and drakons, but in Taygen's ending it leaves the drakons and Unbound deathly ill. Huh?

"Then know this. I am not a weak creature of peace. The Shapers have ruled Terrestia for too long. They are convinced, to the core of their beings, that this is just. Only one thing will convince them otherwise: bloodshed." "The Shapers must be beaten down until they lose their will to fight." "I will send you to scourge them until their spirits are broken enough that they can choose to submit." Need I say more? Edit: Although admittedly, I also found Taygen's ending hilarious, simply because Jeff had the cojones to give your PC the option to participate in, and successfully perpetrate, several mass genocides. The 'dark side' options in Knights of the Old Republic have nothing on Geneforge 5!

*sigh* If only we'd sided with Trajkov, and averted this whole mess.

Yes, but you can still reach it. Once the volcanic eruptions die down, another entrance to the crystal cave is created near where you first come in. And there's nothing to stop you from going back through *the incorporeal door* and crossing the gauntlet, which no longer deals out 60+ fire damage. The glitch works out perfectly.