Untamed Banana Slug

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin why do you think someone tried to have astoria assasinated. I think it is kinda obvious why. His question was rhetorical!

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin why do you think someone tried to have astoria assasinated. It's a pity Makar was incompetent.

By the way, does anyone see something perverse about Taygen being expelled from the Shapers for saving the Shaper Empire, but Astoria becoming head councilor for selling the Shapers out and essentially committing treason? Apply what Astoria was doing to present day life. Let's say a particular General in Afghanistan felt that the U.S.A's imperialism was unacceptable. As a result, they allow the insurgents to cross through a series of tunnels under the sector they administrating. They hinder the war efforts of another general by orchestrating an attack against a military base which leads to the deaths of many soldiers. They go behind the backs of the other Generals to negotiate terms for a surrender with the insurgents, where the conditions involve granting a significant portion of the U.S.A to the insurgents. Finally, they allow the insurgents to operate freely in their territory, turning a blind eye to any loyal soldiers who are killed as a result. Even in a fairly progressive democratic society, what would happen to this turncoat General? I'm guessing a bullet in the brain.

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Vats aren't cheap. Neither is supplying them. The Last Archon But a village in a failing colony could afford them?

Originally Posted By: Master1 For all we know, she and the watcher person she was with collectively sat down in a shaping hall and made a bunch in vats. Litalia said that *she* Shaped the new serviles, and there was no mention of vats, so that implies that she Shaped those serviles personally. But the presence of vats simply further supports what I've been saying. If serviles can be mass produced in vats, then it's not such a big deal to spawn more.

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin im saying that it's 200 years of peace after sucia island. So what im saying is, that the council was obviosly effective for centuries more. Or lucky. Sucia Island was a mishandled ticking timebomb, and further evidence from the series suggests that the Shapers are not thorough in cleaning up experiments gone wrong, they just shut down the complex and erase it from their collective memories. The fact that this hasn't led to disaster in less than 200 years is nothing short of a miracle. Leaving two intelligent species (who you have oppressed, no less) unmonitored on an island with forbidden and dangerous research is one of the most idiotic things the Shaper Council could do, and it came back to bite them. Had they been thorough and erased all knowledge on Sucia, and transported the serviles and drayks off the island, they would have nipped any potential uprisings in the bud. The Shapers only managed to extricate themselves from disaster because of a stroke of luck: Your PC, an untrained initiate, happened to land on Sucia just as the various factions were plotting Rebellion. And the Council further lucked out because your PC remained loyal and kicked ass. But the mishandling of potential and presently occurring disasters did not end there. When the Shaper Council learnt of the goings on on Sucia, they sent Zakary and Barzhal, unmonitored, to clean up the island. Naturally Zakary and Barzhal saw the power the forbidden research could grant them, and absconded with it. And then to the events of Geneforge 2. Drypeak colony is failing, and despite the administrators coincidentally happening to be the same two Shapers who 'purged' Sucia Island, the Shapers are slow to send even one agent (and her apprentice, you). And when they do learn of what is occurring, they are *still* slow to act, and don't complete purge Drypeak Mountains. Oh, and did I mention that things only worked out their way because the PC happened to bail them out once again? On to Geneforge 3. The Shapers respond inadequately to a force that is inferior in numbers, resources and land. Instead of keeping lines of communication open and bringing all of their forces to bear, they panic and quarantine important battle grounds such as the Ashen Isles. Had they supported Rahul, they could have prevented Akhari from constructing the Geneforge and empowering the drakons. Geneforge 4. The Shapers learn of the Unbound project, yet only Alwan and his small band of followers are willing to act decisively by raiding Northforge. They are hung out to dry by the Shaper Council, being denied the resources and firepower necessary to destroy the Unbound. Geneforge 5. The Shaper Council is in shambles. Astoria is willing to sell out her own people to negotiate a surrender with the Rebels. The three councilors of the coastal provinces are weak willed and will side with whichever councilor has the most influence. Taygen is nuts. Rawal is myopic at best, failing to realise that proactively fighting to preserve the Shaper Empire is in his own best interests. All of the Councilors work at undermining each other instead of uniting to fight the enemy, letting the outsider humans take the brunt of the Rebellion's wrath. The Shaper Council (with the exception of Alwan) are a bunch of clowns who are unfit to rule.

"I am not much older than you. I trained as a Shaper. I showed much promise. I was an apprentice, then a novice, then a student, then I was given the robes. And all I had to do to share in the power was to complete my first mission." "So I was given a Watcher, and sent out. I was sent to a remote outpost, where the Shapers were weak and confused, and they had let things go wrong." "As she speaks, Litalia watches you closely, making sure that she is not so wrapped up in her story that she lets you surprise her." "What had gone wrong at the settlement?" "A lack of discipline. The environment was harsh, and the serviles had become disobedient. And then rebellious." "So I asked my Watcher what needed to be done, and he told me. And he told me I had to do it." "What had to be done?" "Why, what else? The serviles had to be killed. And I was the one who had to do it. That was what the Watcher said." "So what did you do?"; "What else? I did what I had been trained to do. I obeyed. I slaughtered them. They fled and screamed and begged for mercy, and I burned them down. Much like I did at your school." "Then I shaped new serviles, trusting, happy, mindless creatures, not knowing the life of miserable labor that awaited them, and I put them to work."

There is a servile in either Fort Defiance or Fort Vengeance who can be escorted.

To be honest, it seems like a tremendous waste to reabsorb creations you have invested XP in leveling up.

Did you manage to keep your vlish until the end of the game? If so, did they remain useful, or were they just dead weight?

Originally Posted By: Master1 When's the last time you've seen someone shape a servile or servant mine with the wave of their hand? And these are two very useful creations. We haven't. But it's implied by Litalia that even a freshly minted Shaper can make entire groups of serviles. Quote: He's saying that the virus will stay around for a while, continuing to kill newly Shaped creations. It doesn't. It causes one wave of destruction, and that's it. Quote: No one says you have to like the Shapers, but please keep in mind that they have kept the people of the empire safe and secure for hundreds, probably thousands of years. That was then, this is now. I'd argue that since the Barring of Sucia, the Shaper Council has been unable to rule efficiently and act decisively. They made blunder after blunder, and the situation continued to spiral out of control until they had open rebellion and Unbound scorching their lands. The way the Shaper Council of Geneforge 5 reacts to some pressure demonstrates that they are unfit to rule.

You can get Vlish pretty early though, which allows you to level them up significantly. And I never have enough essence to fill up all of my slots with hard hitting creations.

Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan Granted, Alwan is the only one who has a very real excuse in that he can not actually participate in a battle Let's not forget that Alwan led an assault on Northforge back in Geneforge 4. That man is hardcore.

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity Huh, I didn't expect this. I haven't played Taygen's faction. This is certainly important information for a lot of questions, because the overall verdict on the Shapers depends a lot on how their society works in its heartland. I have leaned for a long time to the theory that the Shapers are basically an incompetent magical Mafia, and it doesn't seem to help their case any, that the coastal provinces are willing to exterminate all creations. It's worse than that. Click to reveal.. The councilors from the coast go whichever way the wind blows. If Alwan has influence, they side with him. If Astoria has influence, they side with her. If Taygen has influence, they side with him. And if *Litalia* has influence, they side with her! All she does is tell them that the war will never touch their coastal provinces, and they just throw in their lot with her.

Originally Posted By: Shaper Spddin Ghaldrin does not care about other drakons because they can just be re-shaped. Speculation, and to be honest, I don't see the relevance. Either way, the drakons are self-conscious and have an appreciation of the very real risks, repercussions and advantages of taking the battle to the enemy. Whether you like it or not, it's implied throughout the series that drakons have courage in abundance, and Geneforge 5 makes it clear that they have far more than the Shaper Council. Quote: The fact that ghaldrin cant stay away from the action is another quality that makes him arogant. It makes him an effective and courageous leader. The fact that the most powerful Shapers hide far from the conflict is precisely why they are losing the war. A chess player is careful with their queen, but that doesn't mean they keep it hidden behind the pawns for the entire game. Ghaldring is an immensely powerful Shaper, it is a waste to hide him away from the front. Having him reside near the conflict is one of those calculated risks I previously mentioned. Quote: And how is shema arrogant, you dont see enought in the games to make that claim. He is old and weak, that's even stated in the in-game text. Geez. Quote: How has shaper rule not brought peace. It hasn't, as is evidenced by the fact that there are rogues, rebels and unbound ravaging their lands. Worse yet, the Shapers as a government haven't been able to adequately respond to the threat, most of them have just remained in their ivory towers while their Outsider subjects do the majority of the fighting. Worse yet, one of the Council members is willing to commit treason, and she arguably does so in regards to the Shadow Road. To put it bluntly, Shaper rule is highly bureaucratic, hierarchical, corrupt, decadent, inefficient and confused. The Shapers have made mistake after mistake, blunder after blunder, and despite their advantages in resources, numbers, land and power were put on the back foot by a motley bunch of underdogs. Quote: The rebels are masters of destruction and thats all they are. They're not only attacking the shapers, but everyone who is not a rebel. Which rebels? The drakons? They cause destruction? Ye Gods, what of it? They are targeted for extermination so they fight back in an effective manner. Good for them. That's how wars should be fought. There's you enemy, now go destroy it. Quote: As i said before the "hoarding" of shaper power kept people safe for a long time. It also kept Shapers on top of the hierarchy. Coincidence? You don't need an oligarchy and privileged class to regulate certain activities. Quote: Look at G1 in the areas where shapers supposedly began. Look at all the repercussions of uncontrolled shapeing. New deiseases and monsters. And you want that to spread throut the world? You're completely missing the point. I'm not arguing that Shaping shouldn't be controlled. I'm arguing that the Shapers, in their current state, are unfit to manage those powers and rule Terrestia.

Originally Posted By: Trans-Dianetic Ultra-Galvanometer Originally Posted By: Academician Prokhor Zakharov Remember, genes are not blueprints. This means you can't, for example, insert "the genes for an elephant's trunk" into a giraffe and get a giraffe with a trunk. There are no genes for trunks. What you can do with genes is chemistry, since DNA codes for chemicals. —Alorael, who thought it seemed necessary. A glowing dog isn't so far away. GFP is easy! A dog with weird organs? You may have better luck waiting for your flying car. ? DNA doesn't really code for 'chemicals'. Genes code for *proteins*, which form a lot of the structural components, and most of the enzymes, of the body. The DNA *is* essentially a blueprint for an organism, and a series of genes does code for elephant trunks.

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior In the dera reaches, I have seen one drakon, and two unbound. And then there are all the tons of nasty rouges that go with them. Just because there aren't many Drakons, doesn't mean the rebellion isn't there. The people in Zepher Oasis even partly knew about the Drakon, yet the most they did was send you is you accepted the quest. What really grinds of my nerves is that the Shapers (especially the Shaper Council) are so undeservedly arrogant, so much so that I'd oppose their tyrannical rule far more than drakons simply because they no longer deserve to be on top. It's obvious that Jeff made an effort to demonstrate how insular and slow to act the Shaper Council is, and he succeeded to such a degree that it boggles the mind. Despite possessing an enormous amount of power, top quality Shapers hide behind fortress walls while outsider humans do the fighting and dying (just witness Perkalia Orchards. Not ONE Shaper or Creation is present to assist the outsider humans). I really despise that sort of weakness, and it's also nauseating that the Shapers would deny creations and outsider humans the ability to defend themselves, and then hide behind those same disempowered creations and outsider humans when they meet any serious opposition. Contrast that behaviour to the Drakons, who are proactive and willing to take calculated risks. They have infiltrators in every Shaper province, working to destabilize the Shapers. Click to reveal.. Ghaldring is based on the front lines, and the non-Ghaldring endings stress that it wasn't in his nature to hide away from the action. Ghaldring and Ahkari spearhead an assault on the Shaper Citadel, at the risk of their own lives. And finally, the whole drakon army is willing to march on the coastal provinces, despite the mass loss to their numbers. When the Drakons took heavy casualties in Geneforge 4 and realised that conventional warfare wasn't getting them anywhere, they withdrew, yes. But not to cower and hide, but to complete the Unbound project. This is why the Rebellion was so successful. The Drakons, even those at the very top, have nerve in abundance. For all their faults, they *act*, they *respond*, they *adapt*. Most top Shapers do not. Alwan has my admiration for being a totally kick ass guy with a will of steel, and at least Taygen, for all his insane ideas, was willing to do SOMETHING other than sit whining in his ivory tower and cave in to a little pressure like Astoria. Astoria betrayed her own soldiers at Fort Rockfall for crying out loud, and she betrayed them so that she could negotiate a surrender (oops, I meant 'peace') with the Rebels. How gutless is that? The head councilor is incompetent, Rawal is the very definition of inaction, and the two councilors along the coast are just worthless. And people support the Shaper regime, claiming that at least it brought peace and security? Are you kidding me? With the exception of Alwan, these clowns don't deserve to manage a MacDonald's, let alone an entire friggen Empire.

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity Keep in mind that the Shaper Council is dominated by the three coastal representatives, whose provinces are enormously richer and more developed than the war-torn frontiers we see in the games. And they are the only ones in the Council (apart from Taygen, or course) who agree to releasing the Purity Agent, precisely because they are so frightened of the war reaching their pristine lands. Quote: There, the creations are like the happy children doing their chores on the big Shaper farm. Happy children that they can recreate with a flick of their hands. Which is precisely what Litalia did in Drypeak. She destroyed an entire village of disgruntled serviles and replaced them when happy, dumb serviles, and she was still an apprentice. Or was she a newly minted Shaper? Either way, she had far less experience than the average Shaper, but was more than capable of creating a host of serviles. Granted, it's an inconvenience to have to recreate villages of ornks and servile and whatnot, but it's far better than the 'inconvenience' of having your empire torn to pieces, and multitudes of your citizens dying.

Hah! The problem is, the longer it takes to kill your opponents, the greater the opportunity they have to kill you. And I also lack patience.

How would you get the required damage output without upper tier creations?

25% extra damage. Weakness is gangsta!

That won't work so well against bosses with no creations, or weak creations. On Torment, I'd say that you *need* the damage output that War/Shock Tralls give you.

Creations are essential for any boss which is immune to mental magic.

If no-one sees you, it's not a crime. And you can get away with quite a few thefts that are seen depending on how tolerant the city is of crime. Money is scarce up until you hit the Storm Plains, then you're rolling in it.

What spectrum of opinion was shown in Geneforge 1-4? And how many Shapers placed the same value on creation life as on human/Shaper life?