Good Canisters

Yes, that its. Diminishing returns. It is indeed possible to get a level 39 rotghroth, I just shaped one. But the difficulty of it is incredible, and most could not get this much without a major focus on Battle Shaping. In the end, it was 2 level from create rotghroth and 13 levels from 16 battle shaping skill. It is a waste of valuable skill points, however to really go over 10 at all.

Quote: Originally written by Chitrach Exterminator: I don't remember what the base levels are but the actual maximum levels are higher. You can get +3 or more from Create X skill for everything except Drakons (in G3), and you can get +18 from X Shaping, if you were insane enough to pump it to 29. This is not a very useful point, but there it is I'm not sure, but I did get all my shaping to over 10, probably a bad idea but I did it and I don't really regret it too much. I did get my battle shaping over the roof, with 17 with items, but there seems to be a max starting limit... maybe I am wrong. However, I had level 1 create rotghroth and 17 Batttle Shaping, but the creation refused to start at a higher level than 38 (as I could get it to level 38 with less than 17 battle shaping). I must recheck however, because I sometimes have odd memory lapses EDIT: Oh wait, maybe it's the diminishing returns? Shaping at higher levels doesn't exactly give creations one level per skill level. Right?

I know it's definitely possible to beat the crypt without the Geneforge at easy/normal with a medium leveled character. A high level can probably do it at Tricky, but I really don't know how you can beat the entire thing at torment. I've noticed since I started playing torment that my enemies start hitting huge amounts and never miss, bonuses of like 70-100% more damage, and 25-50 % more accuracy. Even if you killed everything on the island, torment would take much perseverance to do... EDIT: Comparisons are between torment and tricky. The gap would be much bigger at easier difficulties compared to torment.

I remember there is also one in Krya's Refuge. It is in the Harmony West Docks. On the eastern side, there is a place with a sign that says something like class C magic pollution. Go through, fight some specters, and go down a trapdoor into Krya's Refuge. You may have to beat some powerful ghosts and shades to get the fibers, however.

Quote: Originally written by Leftover Sauerkraut: I remember rotogroths were horrible. The most they could hit was 70 damage a punch, maybe 130 with QA. I didn't like the drakons, but I had low fire shaping. The gazers I loved. They could hit over 200 damage a shot and 3 of them hasted could take out anything in the game. Are you sure? Try being a loyalist playing torment and shaper Gazers. Then try to kill Nazar (SE Icy End) and his army of creations. The ur-glaahks will slay them easily. Or try the Beneri Eo Gates (I think that was what it was called) and take on 15 ur glaahks, battle betas, war serviles (the ones that hit over 100 and slow/terror/charm/acid)and drayks. Gazers don't kill all, especially things with high magic resistance, so you really have to mix your forces around in GF 3 torment. I had to use a rotghroth and Alwan frequently because of the incredibly high magical resistant enemies. A rotghroth doesn't suck that much, you'll probably be keeping at least one throughout the game. It's a good early 4th tier creation, arguably better than a drakon, which is late Isle of spears. It's effective at taking out what your drayks and gazers can't. And drakons, I just shaped one. It hit 130 on Alwan. Disappointing, really, as Alwan has NO resistances or armor, as far as I've seen. They do have QA and a half decent melee attack, I've noticed. It's just that torment enemies are incredibly strong, as a gazer killed my full HP Alwan in one hit. Did 404 damage to the poor nonresistant thing. EDIT: Plus, a rotghroth CAN hit more than a gazer, and has QA and slow. Acid damage is also harder to resist in the end of the game. Do you always shape your creations with full skill? I always shape tier 4 creations at their maximum starting level. Rots start at 38 (max) and they consistently hit 120+, up to 260 with QA, so I don't see what you're saying about 70s and 130s. Gazers start at 37 (max), and you need to level them to have skills that are on par with a rot. But I agree, Gazers are horribly strong and unbalance the game. EDIT 2: Can 3 hasted (blessed too!) gazers kill the Bound One at torment? (For extra clarity, I meant in one round)

I wish to discuss the 3 tier 4 creations, Rotghroths, Gazers, and Drakons. (Tier 4 upgrades excluded) Of these creations, what do you think is the most powerful? Most useful? Best Essence / ability ratio? From what I know, they are like this: Rotghroths: High HP, Somewhat low attack, low parry, medium QA, melee stun and slow, acid damage. Gazers: Medium HP, very high attack, very low parry, magical melee stun (slow?), magical attack. Drakons: High HP, Essence orbs attack (damage?), low parry, normal melee, energy (magic?) attack. My main question is about drakons. I just took the boat to the Isle of Spears as a Loyalist in torment, and I fight this insane drakon (the first one that attacks you as you arrive, I believe he was named something like "Drixis"). He uses essence orbs and hits 230s on all 3 of my rotghroths. I'm scared now. I always thought Drakons were weak, helpless creations when fighting in small battles. But with a creation that can do over 700 in one shot, about 1400 when hasted, could this be the creation that is stronger than my Gazers? My Gazers hit between 230-280, but that is unbelievable, considering that a Drakon's essence orbs ripped through my rotghroths and almost killed them. I haven't shaped a drakon myself, and I'm reluctant to use a Drakon canister unless my own can hit 170+ per orb. So is it just torment, or are drakons actually excellent creations, good enough to be used? Shaping level is not a factor, since my shaper has very odd stats; all my shaping skills are 10+ and I have item boosts. My Gazers and Rotghroth are both low leveled (under 40). So is it worth it to convert to Drakons, or get a few at least, when they become available? Again, I play in torment. EDIT: Clarity.

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: You mean the enemy named Danette's Spirit? Dikiyoba. Yes, that must be right. I haven't play GF 1 in months, so I've probably forgotten. So there are only 2 live shapers...

Generally, follow a few guidelines to this difficult location: - If you're an Agent or a Guardian, its very important to use the Geneforge before attempting this area. From what I heard, its impossible at the higher difficulties without. Shapers can give their creations (up to a) + 8 to all stats by using the Geneforge and absorbing and reshaping their creations. - Make sure you're well prepared. All the best equips for the location, all training needed, done, used all canisters (optional), pods and spore may be necessary especially for a Guardian. Make sure you sell all unneeded items or drop them to keep your AP at the max. - Make a good strategy. A general guideline is to stay in combat mode to reduce the spawned creations. Well hasted Agents are good at hit and run tactics. Missle Guardians can do the same. Shapers should get a lot (5 - 7) high leveled, advanced creations (e.g. glaahks, ur-glaahks, drayks, cryodrayks.) and mass energize them. Attack as a group when possible, and make sure your Shaper isn't picked off and gets killed in a single hit. Melee Guardians, well good luck. Heavy armor is a must. - Finally, don't be stubborn at force yourself to do this at torment. You should tone down the difficulty if it is too hard. - Oh yes, and don't be stubborn but persevere! If you are challenging yourself on this level, be prepared to reload 20+ times. I'll add more if I can think of more.

I'm not sure, because I haven't played GF 1 for a long time now, but in the Inner Crypt, you can fight the Shaper Danette and her Guardian friends. But this was a long time ago, I might be wrong. Or she might not be truly alive.

Please don't revive long dead topics, check the date please.

Quote: Originally written by Zeviz: While I don't normally play on torment, it seems pretty obvious that 0-intelligence creations are usually worse for any level. If you can't control your creations, you loose all tactical advantage you have as a smart human against a dumb AI and have to rely purely on firepower. The gain in firepower from not buying two points of intelligence is almost never enough to compensate for loss of tactical advantage. Yes, you can do well with 0-intelligence creations. However, in most cases you'd do even better with creations you can control. Quote: Originally written by GoodCanisters: ... EDIT: Quote fixing. It was unsuccessful. To get your quotes to work, make sure the closing tag (word "/QUOTE" in brackets) is at the end of the text you are quoting. Thanks, I'll try to make my quotes more successful next time.

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: Quote: Originally written by GoodCanisters: Quote: Originally written by Nioca: I used it, and then attempted that Shaper Crypt. There were no surviving users of the Geneforge on Sucia Isle. Oh I remember the good times... Got rid of Trajkov and made myself godlike with the same action. Nothing could oppose you, you could be a melee shaper if you wanted, a shaping agent, a magic guardian. Still, you were unstoppable. The Shaper Crypts could be made easy. Actually, I meant that, after obliterating Trajkov and Goatcheese (I can never remember his name), I wound up killed in the shaper crypt. Ah I see, but even in torment, shaper crypt becomes a lot easier after you use the Geneforge, right? As a shaper you could mass energize 5+ cryodrayks, as an agent, you would hit 200+ with every orb and be hasted for a likely 3 hits per turn. Guardians would easily kill anything in a single blow, but they are probably the most prone to death if he loses too much AP or take too much a turn. But its quite possible to die in the shaper crypt after using the Geneforge. Just level a few times and watch your HP/SP/Essence multiply.

Dikiyoba, I sure admire your self restraint in not being immediately consumed by greed for power, and using the Geneforge instantly. I myself once considered destroying it without using it, thinking that I might be in the favor of the Shaper Council. But I thought, if I just saved in took a look at the Geneforge, it wouldn't hurt, would it? So thats how I instantly died, with the broken shaper gloves... My quest then lead me to Goesttech (sp?) to reclaim the real gloves. In my canister filled rage, I burned him and his creations down. I retrieved the gloves, went back into the Geneforge, killed Trajkov (with the broken "fixed" gloves), used the Geneforge. Afterwards, I promptly destroyed it. The Geneforge is surely an artifact that is worth a great debate. True power at the cost of humanity. I could not resist the power. Thats why Dikiyoba, I must again congratulate you for your self control. A side note, unrelated. How many living shapers are at Sucia after you arrive? I would think there are more than 3. Yourself, and Goesttech are the obvious two. But if I remember correctly, Danette was also a Guardian, if I remember correctly. She may have also had a Guardian escort.

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: I used it, and then attempted that Shaper Crypt. There were no surviving users of the Geneforge on Sucia Isle. Oh I remember the good times... Got rid of Trajkov and made myself godlike with the same action. Nothing could oppose you, you could be a melee shaper if you wanted, a shaping agent, a magic guardian. Still, you were unstoppable. The Shaper Crypts could be made easy. EDIT: But again, at torment, you never know when you may be in range of the pylons or get mobbed by the spawners, so its best to not get too arrogant.

Sorry for the double post, I think I clicked the wrong button while editing or something.

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: Been following along for a while before registering? Dikiyoba. GoodCanisters understands that Dikiyoba likes the 3rd person, as GoodCanisters has been visiting for a short while. Back to the original topic: To all people who play in Torment: Do you find that the extra 2 INT has any significance whatsoever? Is it vital, or is the extra Essence/Skill points better spent elsewhere? EDIT: Quote fixing. It was unsuccessful.

Self explanatory; in GF 1, did you use the Geneforge? Destroy it? I've always liked the Geneforge. A 64 point bonus is just too good, good enough to sacrifice humanity and become insane for.

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: I haven't had much experience with zero intelligence creations, mostly just the ones you can pick up in G2 with enough leadership. It's not bad, but there's nothing to be gained from it either. I put two intelligence into all my creations since I generally only make a few creations, so I have the essence to spare. Originally by GoodCanisters: Quote: ...rouge... Dikiyoba believes that the word you want here is "rogue." We're talking about uncontrolled creations and not makeup, right? GoodCanisters believes that Dikiyoba is right and that GoodCanisters should edit all typos that GoodCanisters makes. (That sentence doesn't sound right for some reason)

Either don't play torment here or use the Geneforge first, or prepare for the equivalent of the Monestary in GF 3. Actually, the shaper crypt is even harder, if I remember correctly.

I believe that creations should always come with 2 INT unless there is a good reason why you shouldn't. The only truly good reason I can actually think of is a very specific strategy (e.g. 7 early vlish, 7 creations to get the most out of mass energize, or essence pool abuse.) With the extra 2 INT, you can receive a tactical advantage, and disadvantages of a slowed down game plus the rare accidental early end turn is minor compared to the benefits. Also, for some odd reason, when i created a drakon with 0 INT (Base INT of about 20+), it was prone to going rogue and fleeing, even at easy difficulty. After I added 2 points to INT, it fled and went rogue very rarely.