Emperor Tullegolar

Good. Avernum should take place in caves. However, a spin-off game called Empire might not be such a bad idea. For the Empire!

Maybe they'd eat you, but I would show them who's boss. If giant lizards can be tamed, why not alien beasts? You'd just need to feed them the odd goblin here and there. There's plenty of those morsels to go around.

Quote: Originally written by Thuryl: Even assuming that others have a right in principle to attempt to overthrow you, why on earth would you want to help them gain the ability to do so? I actually answered this before, but this thread is getting so long I can understand if you missed it. The leaders would make basic shaping available to everyone, but they would keep advanced devices, such as the geneforge, to themselves. This way, the government would not be overthrown every five minutes; this would be total chaos. No, they would really need to be incompetent to be brought down. The geneforge would be the ultimate prize. Though it would make the leaders powerful, they would not be invincible, as the bosses of Geneforge 2 and 3 revealed. The geneforge should be revered, and never taken for granted. But I'm still giving the subjects the ability to overthrow the government? Yes. It makes for a powerful civilization. It is in a world where everyone seeks to make themselves stronger and better themselves that the greatest advances in technology are made. If you do not believe me, just look at the whole of human history. As for the leaders: best that they be kept on their toes as well.

Quote: Originally written by Not a Republic: A team could do some of the grunt work for Jeff, but he seems like the kind of person who would rather do it himself anyway. That's good enough for me. As for horses: with the date and time removed from the game, there doesn't seem to be much point to them now. If we really did want horses in Avernum, I think the best thing to do would be to steal the recipe for alien beasts from Rentar-Ihrno's original keep, they would be great mounts! As for Nethergate: that game really was different. Almost makes you think it was made by someone other than Jeff. It has so many elements that are completely alien to the Avernum and Geneforge series. My personal favorite is the way the two groups of adventurers race against each other, constantly foiling each other's plans.

I always imagined the old adventurers died doing what they love best, which would explain why all their legendary equipment is always redistributed throughout Avernum. As for a new plot, Vahnatai lands sounds like a good idea. New, bizarre alien monsters, plenty of demons, the works. Avernum games really should take place in caves. I really hope Rentar still lives. Perhaps a new, repaired Rentar would be the one that calls our heroes to the Vahnatai lands in the first place, probably to help her fend off whatever threatens the Vahnatai. How ironic it would be to help the scourge of mankind against enemies that now threaten her people. Or perhaps your party could actually be Vahnatai? Oh, but then I’d miss the nephilim.

I had hoped I wouldn't need to spell things out like this, but if you insist. The rule was, I repeat, "do not wound the prince." Lincoln and McKinley (the early 1900's president as you know him) were not wounded, they were killed. There is a difference. Should a leader be wounded, however, he would be seen as a survivor, a living martyr, a warrior, almost, wounded in the battle that is his leadership. Take Reagan or Pope John Paul II: both had assassination attempts on them, both were amazingly popular. Tullegolite philosophy believes that anyone can overthrow the government. I don't remember ever saying the leaders could not be attacked. Did you make that up for filler, or did you actually think you could confuse me? Finally, why would you destroy the geneforge? It is the pinnacle of shaper technology! It is the next step in evolution! To deny this to the world would be tragic crime, the genocide of the future, if you will.

Quote: Originally written by Garrison: There are plenty of people with active imaginations who can help in this area, but telling Jeff what to do is not going to solve the problem that he still has to do the nitty-gritty stuff of putting it in. I guess you are correct, I just always imagined that scripting would go ten times faster if you knew in advance what you were going to script. But then, I'm an emperor, not a game programmer. As for the perversely rich commissioning idea: I've always said the same thing myself. Only, before going to Jeff, I did promise myself I would buy the rights to Fallout 3 and get that game back on track first.

I suppose you are correct. It is a pity that Spiderweb cannot get some kind of team together that exists for the sole purpose of creating tiny back stories for towns and provinces and whatnot. They don't have the funds you say? I'd pitch in for free, and I am sure there are a few of you who would as well.

I am interested to know why you think more would be worse.

As usually, I must disagree on all points. Most, if not all of The Prince can apply to today's world. I would like you to name one of his theories that doesn't. My personal favorite is the rule "do not wound the prince." Just imagine if there was an assassination attempt on George Bush that failed. His popularity would increase ten fold. The movie Bob Roberts was about just this. I recommend that movie. The primary rule in The Prince was that it was better to be feared than loved, because love is fickle. True. While the people's love of Bush waned, he won the election because people were afraid to change horses in the middle of the stream. Fear always wins. You must remember, The Prince was not a guide on how to be a beloved ruler. It was a guide on how to gain power and keep it. But perhaps it does not apply to the Geneforge world, after all. If anything, I think Machiavelli would be more harsh when it comes to shaping than he was when it came to medieval rulership. He would be a Barzite, undoubtedly. He would say take all the power you can get as fast as you can. I do not agree with this. But then, I am no Machiavelli. I am Tullegolar.

Quote: Originally written by Slarty: That reminds me. Was anyone else weirded out when they met the mage named Erika in G3 (in Greiner's Camp)? Yes! I especially liked it when she fought with you (or against you) later on. That Erika, always fighting for what she believes in. I was going to propose to Erika Redmark, but then she was killed. Now, I think I might propose to the one who killed her.

Quote: Originally written by Micawber: Tullegolite bah. Machiavellian bah. Don't dignify this philosophy with a fancy name. This is pure aggression. 'Winning is all that matters', 'we must have this in case the others get it', 'my nuclear weapon is bigger than yours'. Ever watch Dr Strangelove? Dr. Strangelove was a brilliant film. Unfortunately, the ways of Machiavelli and myself take the world for what it is, resulting in our unpopularity. Sure, it would be great if everyone would throw down their weapons and seek a higher path, but this is not going to happen. You must be realistic, you must see thing for how they really are and make due with that. The world is evil, people only ever seek to benefit their own situation, and I am merely trying to create a philosophy that takes these facts into account. If you choose a higher path, I will be proud. But don't expect others to be as understanding as I. They will cut you in half the second you lower your weapon. Don't worry, though, I'll name the "Micawber Memorial Geneforge Research Facility" after you when you're gone.

Incorrect. I am the only one, it seems, that does think about the long term repercussions. While everyone else is concerned with what will happen in the the short term, which includes war, destruction, and chaos, I am the one that truly sees the whole picture, the new advancements, new ways of thinking, and new ways of living. I am surprised you believe the opposite. A more plausible argument for you would have been that Tullegolites not care about the means to the end. This is true, we don’t.

Everyone does have access to nuclear technology, you just have to know where to look. Once again, it is the matter of having the means. If you actually have the connections and the cold hard cash to obtain your very own nuclear warhead, then you are probably worthy of being considered a one man nation. The governments that were unable to stop you must now consider you their equal.

Quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: Battle Alphas are shaped to not be able to breed, but naturally can. What does this mean? Did battle alphas exists in nature before they were used as a shaping template? Another interesting question: can creations evolve over time?

Quote: Originally written by Goldman N. King: I believe that anyone should be allowed to shape. However that doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to learn. Also when it comes to experimenting Shaping that should be strictly controlled by the current government. Anyone believed to be experimenting without careful supervision by the government should be murdered. No questions asked. I never said they should be forced, merely given opportunities. Common farmers would be given the knowledge, but hardly any means, such as vital shaping equipment. If they are good enough, they will not need said equipment, and they will produce results regardless. This will earn the government's recognition, and this way even a commoner can prosper without becoming huge threat first. If a commoner does somehow become a huge threat without equipment, this commoner may very well be the next emperor. As for experimentation, that should be a fundamental right as well. If the government was the sole authority on shaping experiments, it would lead to a government just as conservative as the Shaper Council, which is not the way of the Tullegolite. Why stifle creativity? Let the people experiment as best they can, so long as it is never presents a threat to society. Seeing as common people will have limited means available to them, such as no geneforge and limited essence, the threat should be minimal. If ever great trouble somehow arises anyway, the prodigy should first be given an opportunity to work for the government. Should they refuse, only then should the murders commence.

Once again, if the government can not take control of the situation, then they must be overthrown. But what if there is no one alive capable of repairing a certain problem, such as a new disease? Well, that's an easy one. I hope that you know by now what how I would answer that question.

I do not believe that annihilation was ever imminent during the Cold War. Let us take the incident that brought the world the closest it ever came to an actual nuclear holocaust: the Cuban Missile Crisis. At the end of that whole episode, Kennedy called the Soviet's bluff, and they proved to be just as cowardly when it came to using the bomb as you are when it comes to using the geneforge. It does not take a historian to see this. Even the Soviets, the most unpredictable regime in the modern era, failed to push the button. If they are not the best analogy we have to a canister user, then I am afraid I can not think of a better one. As for the common farmers using the secrets available to them, this sounds only fair. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to try their hand at shaping. But you thought I disagreed with the beliefs of the Barzites? I do. Should someone misuse their shaping abilities or simply be terrible at using them, the government then has the duty to take those abilities away from the offender, slay them, if necessary. It would probably only take a few violent examples to make the message clear. Do not feel sorry for them, for they abused the gifts that were given to them. If the government is unable to control a couple of hicks out in the woods shaping battle alphas, then that government has lost control, and must be overthrown. If said hicks are the ones that do the overthrowing, then so be it, for they have proven themselves worthy, and it is now their right to try their hand at ruling. Should they fail al well, it is now your duty to overthrow them and take the realm for yourself. Thus is the way of the Tullegolite.

I am fairly certain Hawthorne does not come back, though the Darkside Loyalists do follow his teachings. Poor Garzahd, on the other hand, does. Rentar-Ihrno found his body at Grah-Hoth's/Garzahd's/Renter's new fortress. She remembered how it was he that stole the crystal souls in the first place and thus she wanted him to suffer much more rather than rest in peace. She brought him back, and when you meet him, he is in a constant state of anguish and he begs you to kill him again. Whether you want to or not, you do, and he "explodes in a comical spray of bones, rags, and dust." There are other old characters that make return appearances as well. There is much more than what has already been said. You really should play the whole game, I think you'd enjoy it.

You forgot the part that I found most intriguing: the Darkside Loyalists. A faction that believes the Empire has grown weak and that wishes to restore it to its former glory. Yes, yes, most... intriguing. Edit: Blast. Two minutes too slow.

I fail to see how most of your examples relate to the topic at hand. Everything you said was true, but it had little to do with using a geneforge. I suppose you mean to say revealing secrets is dangerous because those that get them could become enemies. Yes, a good point. If only the shapers had not kept secrets in the first place they would never have fallen into the hands of the Takers. What? That makes no sense. Yes it does, because there would be no Takers, no abandoned serviles, no abandoned geneforge or canisters to discover. Too late now. Your point for keeping secrets in a time of war, however, is valid. And, since it is too late to prevent the war, then, yes, of course secrets should be kept from the enemies. That is a given. I still think conventional means in this particular war are more brutal than the alternative. Millions of creations killing each other, cities annihilated and, I almost forgot, the diseases mentioned in the end of Geneforge 3. How can you not feel almost as if it is your duty to use the geneforge, just to end the suffering?

And the shapers need fear the Sholai why? They are a backwards people hardly worthy of a footnote. The shapers are not afraid of war with the Sholai, they merely wanted to avoid utter embarrassment. One of their secrets got out, and since they pride themselves on keeping secrets, they had to cover it up. What happens when the Sholai find this one out? The shapers will wish they told them in the first place. You must look further back than Geneforge 3 to see what the real problem is. The problem is that the shapers tried to cover up the geneforge and canisters, leaving it all behind to be discovered by the outsiders in the first place. If only they had kept record of the geneforge, the whole problem could have been avoided, no Trajkov, no Barzahl, no Takers. The fact that the shapers kept it secret is the reason it all happened. I’ll bet now that the shapers are fighting for their very survival, they wish they had access to their own secrets, their own geneforge. Too bad they buried them where now they can not even find them. Stupid shapers. By the way, no one answered a question I posed earlier. Would you approve of the use of a geneforge during a time of war? Or would you rather the war be drawn out through conventional means?

Geneforge is great in that if you leave stuff on the ground, it will be there when you come back. So just pick a spot. Just out of curiosity, what kind of stuff does everyone carry around?

My dear Chairface, I would never advocate the ways of the Takers, I was merely using them as an example. I believe the shapers should be overthrown, but not be creations. That would be ludicrous. Nor am I a Barzite because I would not grant powers to any idiot passing by, either. In fact, the very word Barzite seems to be an oxymoron, as anyone who follows his teachings would never settle for living under the name of another. I believe shaper secrets should be available to the strongest and smartest, for they are the ones most likely improve on the methods currently in practice. The society should also be able to evolve, and experiments should be made public to avoid repetition of mistakes and so they they are not left behind to grow out of hand unchecked. I suppose this makes me a Tullegolite. If nuclear weapons weren't proliferated, war between the United States and the Soviet Union would have been inevitable. Neither side wanted to attack the other due to the fear of the power of such weapons and, thus, major conflicts were avoided. The same can be said for the power of a geneforge. Who is going to attack someone with supreme power? Even better if multiple people have this power, because they will balance each other out. As for Taker doctrine, I am almost certain it was Seros from Geneforge 2 that said he would spare humanity as long as they submitted to the power of the drakons. It matters not, as all Takers are rogues and their ways should never be taken seriously.

Quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: There's no reason to think that 200 or so years of technological improvements wouldn't provide a way for the human geneforge to be "perfected". You’ve no idea how much this pleases me to hear. Quote: Originally written by Chairface Chippendale: I guess Akhari seemed pretty reasonable...aside from the whole "annihilate all humans" thing. His goal was to create a legion of super drakons to over throw the Shapers and take control of Terrestria for themselves I do believe it is part of Taker doctrine to allow non-shaper humans to live, provided it is under drakon control. Yes, the goal is to overthrow the shapers, but is it not a worthy one? Surely one so terrified of shaper ways as you can see the good in this. As for collateral damage, it is regrettable but unavoidable. For the record, I am not a Taker, but I do not agree with the Shaper Council’s ways, either. Quote: Originally written by Chairface Chippendale: Also, the canisters in G3 were new canisters, made by Akhari in proliferated for the sole purpose of tempting humans to use them and disrupt society, to undermine the Shapers from within. I seem to remember the canister workshop being located in Rising. It matters not, as I have explained the unfortunate fact that yes, the canisters do not work and yes, people use them anyway. They should all be destroyed, in my opinion. They would not even be necessary had the geneforge been perfected in the first place. Quote: Originally written by Chairface Chippendale: However, the experimental risks aren't worth the consequences of a failed experiment. With this mindset we would still be in the dark ages. You can not win an argument if you insist that innovation is futile. Without it, we are nothing. Quote: Originally written by Chairface Chippendale: The problem with using Geneforges isn't as much in the design as it's in the inherent flaws of human nature. For humans to be able to use it with minimal consequence, it would take an entirely new philosophy and all aspects of human life would have to be rethought from the ground up. I still don't think it is impossible for the Geneforge to enlighten the mind as well as strengthen the body. As for changing all aspects of human life: that certainly would take a revolution. Or even... a rebellion? Appropriately, this brings us back to the topic at had. Should shapers keep secrets? Keeping these secrets has only resulted in war, as it always will. The shaper way is life is about to be rethought after all, on a massive scale. I can not wait.