Emperor Tullegolar

I suppose ‘nobles’ was the wrong word, but surely you see that the mayors of Avernum do form some kind of aristocracy. I completely agree with the point of Avernum being much like Imperial China. Imperial China relied largely on local governors and huge bureaucratic system. But like I said, the people in China never successfully overthrew an emperor, and they had some very incompetent emperors. No, whenever a dynasty fell, it was because local lords rebelled against a weak central government. Avernum is the same, I don't think the king has very much power at all. The king seems to be more of a symbol, really, like the Queen of the United Kingdom. Since it is the power of the symbol that gives strength, rather than competence, I think that Chevyn would be supported by just as many, if not more people in Avernum solely due to the fact that he is the first born son of the great King Micah. All Chevyn would need to do to take over would be to buy off the local town mayors (though not necessarily with money) and then hire a good propaganda expert to spread the word that “the true Prince has come home.” Kelandon: When I ask a question like the one you answered I am expecting an answer that is relevant to the topic of Avernum games. Take your myst villains, for example. Yes, those were all very intriguing characters, great villains, to be sure. But could you fight against them with swords and spells? I would like to keep it within the Avernum genre. I’ll rephrase the question: what is the ideal violent fantasy role playing game villain? Alorael: I don't think you could ever make a decent argument for Garzahd not being the sole driving force of the Empire in Avernum 2. In fact, I am pretty sure Micah asked you to kill him for just that reason. If the portal were destroyed but Garzahd left alive, I think you would have a very Rentaresque situation on your hands. He would return to trouble you again, probably with a bigger army than the first time around. Edit: Almost forgot Big Brother. If he is not totally necessary for the party maintaining absolute control, then why did they create him? Any faction requires a powerful leader. Look at political parties in the United States: total failures without a leader. You think the Nazi party would have gotten anywhere without Hitler? No, without a powerful leader, the stongest factions will crumble into dust. A made up leader worked out especially well for the 1984 party, since he can never embarrass himself or be killed, he is the perfect leader, and absolutly nessesary as well. I am an Emperor, I know these things.

Quote: Originally written by Smoo: Goris is a female? I am 96% certain of this. It really was sad to see her devastated by the sight of her slaughtered people. Made you really hate Horrigan, if the other events hadn't already.

I must disagree on the point of Fallout 2. You first meet Horrigan in the wasteland, where you watch helplessly as he guns down an innocent family. Later on, if you’ve joined the Brotherhood of Steel, you return to the hideout's at some point to discover that the soul caretaker has been murdered, once again by Horrigan. Eventually, if you have Goris traveling with you, she has you return to Vault 13 because she is worried about her people. You go with her, and are crushed to discover the whole clan, even the children and eggs, have been 'cleansed' by Horrigan. Maybe you missed out on some of these events, but I believe Horrigan is meant to be the main antagonist never-the-less. He doesn’t, however, hold a candle to The Master, who is probably the greatest video game villain of all time. As for the games Ash Lael mentioned, I've not played a single one, interestingly enough, are they available for mac?

Paradise Lost and South Park would make terrible games! Who would play those? Well, I might, but it would be out of sheer curiosity, and I am certain they would be really bad. A South Park game, while fun, is not a very good example of how to improve Avernum 4's plot. As for Paradise Lost, I am not sure how that would be made into a game at all, but you are welcome to try. Now I understand why you are so critical of Avernum 4: you haven't played a lot of other games. I can assure you, the games out there... it gets far worse than Rentar-Ihrno.

While I would like to believe Avernum would rise up against an incompetent ruler, I am fairly certain this doesn't happen in feudal systems, ever. The people are generally kept ignorant of their monarch, and they do what their local lords, in this case the mayors, tell them to do. Throughout human history, the only time that feudal monarchs are ever overthrown is when they anger the nobles. And nobles, my friend, can be bought! It don't think it would be difficult at all to put a puppet king on the throne of Avernum. It would take the proper propaganda for the troops, however. "Hail Chevyn, the rightful king!" Hey, that warcry almost rhymes! Destroying the portal was a victory not against the Empire, but against Garzahd. Garzahd was the Empire in Avernum 2. The same can be said for 1984. Even though Big Brother wasn't even real, without him, what would The Party have been? Nothing. As for Nethergate, that actually is a fair example. I concede on that.

Ah, but as I said before, Chevyn would be the ideal puppet ruler. He may be an idiot, but that is exactly what nobles want in a monarch. Plus, he has a legitimate claim to the throne, being the eldest son. All it would take for him to gain real power is the proper puppeteer! The mysterious leader of the Darkside Loyalists, perhaps?

Quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: The way we've reconciled Chevyn with A4 is by saying that Micah served until 836, when Chevyn was supposed to be king but instead the Council of Avernum stepped in and ran things. When Starrus, Micah's next son, reached 13, he was appointed King by Houghton and Crown supporters That sounds like grounds for civil war to me! Rule #1 when it comes to appointing a successor to a monarch: pick the oldest son! Anything else tends to result in disaster. I just realized that, while I know it happens, I never actually saw the Tower of Magi destroyed. I guess I just never had a game last that long, probably because I cheated. No matter. So, Linda is dead. I can't believe this is the first time I am hearing about this. I feel like a fool. I'll miss her. Alorael: You don't think a good villain is necessary? Please tell me you wrote that by accident. What good game doesn’t have a lead antagonist? While I can think of twenty great villains right off the top of my head, I have trouble think of a single 'faction' that is worth remembering. Barzites? No, wait...

Right, right, Houghton is not the one. What ever happened to that other prince... Chevyn? He seemed like the kind of ruler that would fall easy prey to some kind of evil puppeteer. Linda perhaps? She is still alive somewhere out there, isn't she? Democracy vs. monarchy? I am not so sure the town mayors true elected officials. They are supposedly elected, but I am not so sure if it to such a great extent. I get the impression that Avernum cities are not so big as Empire cities, so the common citizen might have more say, but still very little. It is probably more of an oligarchy. I don't think the world of Avernum is ready for democracy.

I can't believe that so many of you would have Rentar as a minor villain! She is a major character in the Avernum series! She helped you to win the Empire War, and she was the most powerful living being after Erika's death. She has basically single-handedly driven the plot for 3/4ths of the series! How could the Darkside Loyalists ever control her? They stand for everything she hates, and I'll bet she would crush Dorikas's puny mortal form without even thinking about it. I personally don't like Dorikas, and I am surprised you all do. He seems to be everything you don’t like in your villains: you never really get to know him, and then when you finally fight him, he runs away. Undoubtedly, you will fight and kill him in the next Avernum. He is so much better than Rentar how? I hope, for your sake, that there is a much better villain behind Dorikas. I think I mentioned this earlier: I hope Prazac goes back on her word and tries to rebuild the Empire of her ancestors! Otherwise it will just be some as of yet unnamed bad guy. I hate it when that happens. Emperorking, some nice ideas, finally! An Avernum civil war; I'd like to see that! This probably doesn't mean much to you, but the civil war idea gets my Emperor's Seal of Approval™.

Revenge is a running theme in Avernum. Hawthorne exiled you, so you killed him, which angered Garzahd, who in turn pissed of Rentar. It was kind of the... if you'll pardon the expression... thing. It was the thing! As for a dastardly scheme to destroy all good in the world... wrong. That's not what I saw. I saw a noble crusade to rid the world of evil. The Empire, with its ruthless genocide of anything non-human, surely had it coming. And then there is Avernum, who betrayed their own allies to defend their one time mutual enemy! The turncoats! Avernum and the Empire are both evil, Rentar was only doing what she believed was right. I will play the scenarios you recommended.

Progress has losers, this is a fact of life. While I'm not sure this is how it has to be, thus is human nature. Sure, millions have died, the forests are disappearing, but I'll bet you wouldn't be willing to give up your computer and local supermarket to stop it. But, do not be ashamed, few would. In the world of Geneforge, it is the same, only to the extremes. Sure, more people will suffer before a new advancement can be made, but it is not logical to assume that, in the future, more will benefit from it? As for overthrowing the government leading to anarchy, this is simply not true. In the year 1992, the government of the United States of America was overthrown, and a new leader was proclaimed. Tullegolite government would be the same way, only you would vote with violence rather than a hanging-chad or whatever. Barbaric? Yes. But I believe it is fitting to the world of Geneforge. As for the Cold War, it did not apply strictly to nuclear weapons, though they tended to take the spotlight. The Cold War was really just two nations constantly trying to upstage one another with new weapons and technology, and it ended. And now there is a clear leader in world politics. The Tullegolite government would be the same: periods of warfare spaced out with periods of peace in between. Similar to the European system from the 18th through 20th centuries, the balance of power That's horribly backwards, you say? True. But again, I find it fitting to the world of Geneforge.

This makes me sad. How far did you get in Avernum 3, exactly? Did you battle the montrous Alien Slime? Did you marvel at the endless trash pits of the Filth Factory? The surface is, in my opinion, more difficult to navigate than the caves, but once you get your bearings I think that Avernum 3 probably has the best plot of any other Spiderweb game. There are so many things to do! The only thing about Avernum 3 that disapointed me was the lack of shifting floors in the Tower of Shifting Floors, which was actually renamed the Golem Tower or something. As for Avernum 4, I really don't see what made the plot so much worse than the other games. If your saying that the plot was reused and you were disapointed by that fact, then you would have more of a case.

Good point, Slarty. Kelandon, can you give me an example of a multidimensional villain so that I have a better idea of what you are looking for?

You both seem to think that there should have been more interaction with the Vahnatai in general and Rentar in particular. I am not so sure about this. The Vahnatai are notorious for being uncomfortable around humans. I think Jeff always intended for them to be alien in out eyes. That is why we never really get to know them or even really understand their motives. In fact, could it be that this burning curiosity we were left with regarding Rentar and the Vahnatai's motives was intentional?

*i: Plot coupon? Is that how you see it? Well then, all I can say it that I am sorry that you let your highly critical attitude keep you from enjoying the simpler pleasures of the game. Alas... Even I can summon undead, that's not the point. The monster plagues were in no way like hordes of minions as you say. Hordes of minions would be like what the Darkside Loyalists have. They have a bandit fort here, another there, three more over yonder. Rentar, on the other hand, gave us the much needed variety. The Filth Factory is a personal favorite. You think the game was too predictable? You must be a genius, I'll bet no one else had any idea that Rentar would return to wreak havoc once again! Except for the fact that she said she would. You were supposed to expect her. The suspense was not "who is creating these monsters" it was "were finally going to defeat our long time rival." That is what makes the plots in Avernum 3 and 4 different. We've overlooked this, it seems. Of course, Avernum 4 was not meant to have a big twist plot. You are correct when you say that. Why then do you insist on judging the game by that very factor? Kelandon: Perhaps I was making stuff up. Is that not the point? Do you even know what RPG stands for? If you really need a game where everything is spelled out for you, play something else. Then again, was I making stuff up? Vahnatai do revere crystal souls, right? Rentar is a vahnatai, right? She was merely following her own beliefs by attacking the Empire, how is that crazy? When here people stopped supporting her, if they ever even did, she had nothing left but her hatred for humanity. It doesn’t take a psychologists to figure this out. Just because you can’t connect the dots on your own doesn’t mean I’m making things up. To end this unfortunately long post: Quote: Originally written by Kelandon: a note left behind in a dungeon/fortress Now who’s writing the crappy plots?

*i: You don't think plagues of monsters are unique to Rentar? Who else do you know who unleashes such a variety of hordes upon unsuspecting towns? I think that was the whole point! "Plagues of monsters? Oh, no! It must be Rentar!" The whole point was that you associated Rentar with the monster plagues, and that's yet another element that gave her character. As for the trap, yes, it was painfully obvious. But... didn't you get a warm fuzzy feeling when you realized she was thinking about you? Alorael: Not sure I understand what you are saying. Aren't the events you described what actually happened in the game minus the involvement of the adventurers. But apparently, most people like it when things happen independent of the adventurers. Randomizer: What you are describing sounds a lot like Avernum 3 with a Darkside Loyalists plot. A worthy goal. This gets my Emperor's Seal of Approval™.

Fair points from Drakefyre. What is this fire and brimstone and massive destruction you suggest? She took out the Army of Avernum, didn't she? As for Houghton and Starrus, I was suspecting more political intrigue there as well. A pity that whole angle was left undeveloped. As for *i, there are plenty of events driven by player actions. Rentar tries to kill you at one point, even. She does anything but just sit around waiting to be killed. And I think your example of environmental reaction, bandits rebuilding their forts, makes little sense. I suppose it would add to the overall content, but why would you want to kill bandits in the same place twice? Why not just add another bandit dungeon all together? Jeff did this many times over in Avernum 4. I really liked all those different bandit dungeons! If I am still misunderstanding you, please give more examples of what you mean by the game responding to the player's actions. As for Rentar, once again I express my sincere disappointment that you missed out on the true depth of that character. She really is interesting once you understand her.

Quote: Originally written by *i: the actions of the villain and his/her allies and adversaries can illustrate their motives and background. This sounds like Rentar to me. Anyway, I am beginning to understand what you all want, but just barely. You seem to want a game where NPCs and the environment evolve and change completely independent of player action. I am having trouble visualizing this. Can you give me an example of such a game? The closest I can think of would be a MMORPG like World of Warcraft. Is that seriously what you expect from Spiderweb? Be reasonable. As for making the plot more oriented on Darkside Loyalists: this is a worthy suggestion. However, Avernum 3 left off with Rentar still holding a grudge against you, so she had to make a comeback. In a way, Avernum 4 was a bridge between two different stories and a way to test a new combat system. I am sorry you all think the test was such a failure. You don't think such experiments should be able to pass for a real game? Well, Nethergate was an experiment too, in a way.

So you expect NPCs to actually go out and do things. Not totally unreasonable. Erika is a good example of this, but then you say she should do more than just aid the party? You want the environment to evolve around you without the assistance of the players? That seems to most closely describe Avernum 3, not Geneforge. Also Nethergate, which I think we can conclude now had the most clever and unique story out of the whole lot. You say Geneforge is a good example of in-depth characters that do things. Who? Not anyone from Geneforge 1 or 2, they all just stay where they are and wait to be killed, they don't even run away to fight you again later. As for Litalia and Hodge, they really change little from the begining to the end. The seem to exist more for showcasing the development of your own character rather than themselves. Are you saying the plot should not be driven by the players? If you want to simply observe the story rather than drive it, perhaps you would be more suited to reading books than playing games.

Again I must ask, what games are you playing where the main villain sits down with you, tells their life story, spells out their motive for you, and then proceeds to meet up with you on a regular basis to catch up on things? Alorael, your description of a perfect villain brings to mind Gary from Pokemon, not a very good villain or plot, in my opinion. I agree that Nethergate's Roman/Celts set up was most interesting, but it doesn't even follow your own guidelines as the two groups never really meet each other. Finally, as for giving friendly NPCs more personality: were you not excited to meet up with your old friends X, Solberg, Rone, and Kelner? Those guys have all kinds of back stories and airs of mystery and whatnot. Do you want each one of the little farmers that gives you side quests to have a back story as well? I would say this is an unreasonable request, but then I realized that most of them actually do have back stories. The mayor's wife in Mertis comes to mind. Does she meet your standards for a character with personality?

So, what you all seem to be asking for is an intricate plot where every detail is spelled out for you from the beginning to the end? What games do you play that give you this disposition? I suppose I must be taking my imagination for granted. I saw Rentar as something more than a common villain. She was once your ally: did you forget how she helped you out with a phoenix egg that one time? If it were not for her, Gazahd probably would have been the boss of Avernum 4. Poor Rentar had all the power in the world and yet could not garner the support of her own people, for whom she believed she was fighting. You guys don't feel for her at all? I am truly sorry you all missed out on that. I didn't realize you couldn't read between the lines.

Good points. I did half expect to fight a water monster at some point in Avernum 4 and was a bit disappointed when it didn't happen. Time restrictions, you suppose? Do you really think Rentar should have been made a sub-boss? This seems a bit demeaning for a villain as great as her. How could these Darkside Loyalists stack up against the greatest mage the caves have ever known? I wonder who their leader is... Probably just some Empire jerk we’ve never even met before. If it turned out to be Prazac double-crossing Avernum, then I would be intrigued! I suppose it matters not, as the plot you described will most likely come to fruition in the next game anyway.

So you like the plagues of monsters plot, how refreshing. But how would it be like Nethergate? More Darkside Loyalists would be a good idea, but if you meet and defeat them in a single game, they wouldn't be so interesting. That's why I like Rentar, she evolved a little each game. I don't like mysterious enemies so much, as I like to feel what my enemies are going through rather than not even know who they are until the end. I guess that's what made Nethergate so special: the fact that you could play from both sides of the board. As for stealth versus combat situations, very Geneforge, I like it. It wouldn't hurt to merge that aspect into the next Avernum game.

Quote: Originally written by Niemand: My answer to 'how would I do it better' with regards to A4 specifically would pretty simply be: no A4. Wow. You think that Avernum 4 was so bad that you would rather it didn't exist? Ouch. Come on, it had new monsters, it took place in Avernum, even Rentar was a little different. Quote: Originally written by *i: Actually have real living breathing characters rather than 1D caricatures resembling people. My question was more plot related but... ah, I see what you mean! I think Avernum 4 did have such characters! Look at Rentar. When she first finds out about you, she doesn't think much of you. Later, she is annoyed to see how far you make it. You can feel her pain and frustration as she loses battle after battle against you. You chase her across the world, taking on everything she can throw at you. She becomes your nemesis, and you become hers. By the time you have the final confrontation, she is practically a member of the party. That, my friend, is a living, breathing character. Edit: To respond to Kelandon without double posting. Rentar was too deep character. I am sorry you seem to have missed out on that whole element of the plot. Rentar was constantly struggling with the values of her people versus the actual consensus of them. She felt she had a duty to avenge the crystal souls, but when she realized she had gone to far, her honor would not allow her to turn back. She had to constantly deal with her new crusade, which was all she had left, while at the same time be torn up inside by the fact that her own people did not support her. What character in Nethergate is so deep, may I ask?

I've noticed that bashing the plots of Spiderweb games is sort of the national pass-time around here. You all seem to hate the plots that involve plagues of monsters led by an evil overlord. While I disagree with your views, I am curious to know, how would you do it better? The plagues of monsters plot is the ideal plot for the style in which Jeff does his games. Let’s assume that any good game has a variety of enemies culminating in an epic boss battle in the end, with few exceptions. Does it not make sense then to use the plagues of monsters script? You get to fight all kinds of monsters, each with their own bosses or puzzles that must be conquered in order to beat them. And then, in the end, it finishes you off with a battle against a boss worthy of legends. Few games can pull of using the same end boss twice in a row, but Avernum 3 and 4 did it. Rentar is up there with Diablo and Ganondorf as one of the greatest bosses of all time. But this is just my own humble, Imperial opinion. For those of you that really don't like the setup, how would you do it differently? What plot would you create that has both a variety of different monsters and an epic final battle at the end?