A:EftP - Torment/Questions

[Languorous_Maiar]

I wanted to start torment playthrough, so 2 questions:

-It's profitable for mages to invest a lot of points into weapon to gain adrenaline rush? Or rather, it's needed to beat torment (considering i'm rather newbie) or I would be able to complete game without It? If its' so op and if I should take it, at what lvl I should put points into weapons?

-Now a little more complex. There is some gamey way to defeat lich at stagnant caverns? I mean, I want to learn all those spells for free, as fast as I can, so how should I do it? At which level try to kill him and what spells from first seven buy before taking them for free, what will be necessary to do any fighting?

 

Thanks.

[Randomizer]

Wait until you reached a trainer for weapon skills. You get to save skill points early in the game to build up useful skills and you won't need many after a trainer to get adrenaline rush. Also there are items that you can use for a few levels of weapon skills.

 

You can complete the game without it. But it makes it easier.

 

For the lich it helps to stay in the corner room and use the doorway to restrict the number that can attack you. The undead pile up and you can concentrate attacks on one at a time. Level is determined by having a good chance to hit them, maybe about 15.

 

Spells to get by spending money are ones that you use the most: Bolt of fire, daze, haste, slow, and cone of cold. Get the first level and more for attack spells and daze.

[The Reverend]

What Randomizer said. Also, the cheapest place to get weapons training is in the Freehold of Kyass, after you've done a number of quests for them (the trainers in the Freehold drop their prices as you complete more quests - see posts #21-24 in this thread: http://spiderwebforu...e-pit-spoilers/)

[Languorous_Maiar]

Another fast questions.

 

Those penalties from armors to hit, also affect mages and their spells, and I should avoid using them for non-tank chars?

 

Also, you need to have 11 cave lore to dig first expedition ring, which gives 2 cave lore... so in total you should have 13. But there is no cache for 13? There is some temporary way to increase cave lore?

 

Edit:

Also, about something from that thread: http://spiderwebforu...n-maxing-aeftp/

(Really, really helpfull by the way, without that guide I doubt I would want to start torment playthrough)

 

Counts as 3 points of Arcane Lore for most purposes. Another incredible value, unless you are shooting for the Stagnant Tunnels spellbooks.

Basically I want to go for Stagnant Tunnels and spellbooks from it, but then why I shouldn't take Sage Lore?

I still could learn 3 lvl of those spells from books (so completely free in total) and still arcane lore would be needed to learn best spells in the game?

Or just spellbooks from tunnels require always 8 arcane lore, no matter how many sage lore I have, and then taking those traits would be useless.

"----- west spell book - if you have mage skill and AL 8 without sage lore - learn first seven spells at level 2

------ east spell book - if you have priest skill and AL 8 without sage lore - learn first seven spells at level 2"

 

Let's say I'm little confused, but I want to be sure for 100%.

 

Edit2:

I don't remember another thing. (I mean, I remember, but no exactly)

There are two landing places in the north: a landing stage in the middle and one to the west. The latter has a secret door leading to Evhyor the Sighted (an eye beast) which is accompanied by a Basilisk, three Gremlins and two Searing Crawlers. They are guarding a nest containing a few unintersting items and drop ??. To get further east you must dispel a barrier.

It is better to use the landing stage in the middle of the northern arm and leave the monsters behind the barrier in the west. To the east you come across Thralni's corpse from which you can get the Orb.

 

In my normal/first game I remember I had to fight with those monster to get orb. (and it was damn hard even at normal, but I wanted to have orb pretty fast) But after reading that I want confirmations, that it's possible to just take ship, go into stagnant tunnels, get orb without fighting?

It would be helpfull with going early to Erica and buying Arcane Lore.

 

 

Ofc. thanks for help.

[Randomizer]

There is a trait to allow mages to use armor that gives penalties to hit for another -20%, however there are plenty of good armors that you don't need to use armors with penalties. Also some items will counteract the penalties by having bonus to hit.

 

To increase any ability temporarily you have to use the game editor to alter the characters.

 

You need arcane lore (AL) 8 as the total for the party to read the Stagnant Tunnel spellbooks. Sage Lore trait doesn't count for these spellbooks. However there are other spelbooks that need more AL so Sage Lore is an easy way to be able to read them. Also you can wait on AL until you reach a trainer instead of using skill points.

 

You can get the Orb of Thralni without fighting if you are careful. However Erika may not help you unless your reputation is high enough. Plus the fights to get in to see her aren't that easy.

[Languorous_Maiar]

You're truly god of Avernum games Randomizer. ; p

So that situation with too much Cave Lore is oversight of developers? If you have enough CL game rewards you with the item, that gives to you even more CL, but that additional CL is useless.

As for Erica, I can't use piercing crystal to avoid Breeding Pen? Damn, it when all tricky stuff is starting. Because I need 8 AL to get 3 lvl of dispel barrier. But who knows, maybe after using that potions, who makes you immortal, I will go past those monsters in her tower. Or if not, well, I will propably take 8 AL from character points, and only buy 4 additional from Erika (instead of buying all 8 possible).

 

Edit:

As for second, nevermind. I decided to go with Sage Lore.

[The Reverend]

Also, you need to have 11 cave lore to dig first expedition ring, which gives 2 cave lore... so in total you should have 13. But there is no cache for 13? There is some temporary way to increase cave lore?

There's no use for 13 cave lore, but 12 cave lore gets you the putrified gauntlets. If you grab them, and then sell the putrified gauntlets and the first expedition ring, you can get 2100 gold (assuming all characters have the negotiator trait). In my cave lore analysis (this, as well as lots of other useful info, is linked in the Strategy Central forum topic), I argued that the training you can buy for 2100 makes it worth investing a skill point to get to 11 cave lore (you can get to 10 from free points and purchased training).

[Jerakeen]

I believe you can avoid the breeding pen if you do the witch's collection quest before going to Erika's tower.

[Earth]

I believe you can avoid the breeding pen if you do the witch's collection quest before going to Erika's tower.

 

You mean labyrinth full of lizards?

[Languorous_Maiar]

In all threads people are saying about items giving +1 to TU.

But you can buy one of them for 2700... while you can learn 1 TU for 2200.

So I wonder why people are always mentioning that item, instead saying it's better to learn from teacher/spend point from lvl instead of buying that one.

 

As for game, I cleared out Nephilim Fortress, Blossthus was truly god. After doing all fotress I had to leave that place, sell all items (during dungeon I got 8 lvl so negotatior in effect), take some better spells as haste and then after a ton of loading I killed him. All mages on torment are so vicious, killing 3 of my mages using one spell. If not blocking in doors and hundreds of loads, it would be really hard. As for now, I'm slowly moving forward. For example, there is some encouter with lava bats around Formello. I went there, loaded like 10-15 times whispering to screen for lava bats not using their spells at start. They didn't, I killed all of them with little problems. (if they would be smart and use that spell, always when they could, it would be doom. Also, that lonely slith past Duvno when I had low lvl, killing my tank in one-shot. Or kitty under Silvar, killing everyone using that acid... and so on.)

 

Now I found slith/nephalim too strong (my tank character can only survive like 3 hits from them) so now I'm doing arenas past Formello, and after I will gain enough lvl to buy fireblast, I will do all undead ones locations. (I want to spare as much gold as I can, so I'm not taking lighning spray, going all time since Silvar with Ice Rain, and now waiting for that fireblast.)

 

Game exprience is really great, now I can't imagine playing on something other than torment. While not everything is balanced, I find all that battle mechanics in Avernum one of the bests among all games.

[The Reverend]

In all threads people are saying about items giving +1 to TU.

But you can buy one of them for 2700... while you can learn 1 TU for 2200.

So I wonder why people are always mentioning that item, instead saying it's better to learn from teacher/spend point from lvl instead of buying that one.

You can get the tinker's gloves (+1 TU) for free as a quest reward, but I agree with you that the Tinker's Bauble for 2700 is too expensive to be worth buying, especially when training it costs only 2200 (and 2200 is actually fairly expensive for training - I will often use skill points and/or the nimble fingers trait for tool use and instead use the same amount of money to buy more training in other skills)

 

As for game, I cleared out Nephilim Fortress, Blossthus was truly god. After doing all fotress I had to leave that place, sell all items (during dungeon I got 8 lvl so negotatior in effect), take some better spells as haste and then after a ton of loading I killed him. All mages on torment are so vicious, killing 3 of my mages using one spell. If not blocking in doors and hundreds of loads, it would be really hard.

I often come back later (after a couple extra levels) before taking on Blossthus - he is harder than the rest of the Nephilim fortress, especially on torment. Same with some of the other encounters you mention.

[mouton]

I believe you can avoid the breeding pen if you do the witch's collection quest before going to Erika's tower.

I didn't do the quest and somehow I went through a side corridor around breeding pen.

[Randomizer]

The witch's collection quest gets you past a magical barrier before you confront the goblins, I think.

[Languorous_Maiar]

There is way to check how many % I have to hit someone using weapon/spell? (other than just hiting itself) I mean, something similar to Fallout system.

 

As for Ericka, I can't pass with low lvl.

Erika as witch only unlock barrier, then just pass by goblins, then labirynth, all possible for low lvl.

Garden isn't possible to "skip". I tried with immortal potions, but even after using a lot of tricks like going thought room while massively clicking lpm to use more AP than I had, ending combat during combat to use wheel to open to door (I'm still wonder how it's possible, if you during fight click on wheel, then end F to end fight and space to skip your turn, fight ends even if you're near monster. However, you can only do 1 action (clicking on some item/casting one spell etc) and after this monsters instantly attack). However, after opening it, 2 golems, 2 rats, and 2 other monster spawns in front of it, making passage impossible.

 

Using that trick with unlimited PA to move, I did second task for Kyass (went past those living woods in Patrick tower). Or I even skipped that spawned demons in Nephalim fort/Aranea caves, where demons spawns in North-West place, spawned them, left locations, no demons. After all, I'm using sword gained from fort, so it was worth it.

Using other trick, (attacking behind the wall using AoE spell) I did first quest for Kyass at 12 lvl, however, it still was madness.

I killed all followers of Cenac using Icy Rain hundreds times and luring them to me, then saved/regenerated for Cenac itself.

Cenac took me like 45-60 min. He couldn't kill my tank in 1 one hit, so healing tank in each turn + using bolt of fire for Cenac I could kill him... but If i did some misslick (meele attack as mage/not heal as priest) he would kill my tank/mage making all fight lost already. I unfortunately did some misslicks, so I had to repeat that fight few times. And then, learned another trick. If my tank stood in a door, I could use AoE spell for infinite time and Cenac just stood in one place! However, after wasting all mana of my 2 mages for Icy Rain for him, he lost only 1/4 of hp... and I ever haven't enought potions to kill him using that trick, so I used few o them, entered room and carefully killed him using bolts of fire. He was really wall to hit and I was rather dissapointed with it. Granting so many HP to some enemy is worst way to increace level of difficulty, it just make it time concusming, no harder.

 

However, doing that 3 tasks for Kyass gave me nothing in total... Evyss is teaching high spells only after doing 5-6 quest and I didn't knew that, so everything only for exp/cash.

 

Now at 13 lvl I'm doing bat cave assasing and well. Again some trick, before talking with guy himself, I need to go around him and enter small bat caves. Kill all of them, and then start fight with assasin, making killing him possible. Also, south of him there is some cave where is some really powerfull bat + lava bats + 2 weak ones. However, that strong bat from southern cave with his followers was harder to kill than assasin. Huh. Killing them both in one fight sequence? Would be damn hard.

 

I wanted also to do Kyass quest for Bargha, but huh, monsters spawns in ALL room + during fight I can't use stairs, so next impossible to skip quest.

But why I event mentioning it? If you start fight by yourself, then enter specific field, which activates entire fight with monster, and if you fast enough, you can't spam LPM and enter mayor room... then 3 of yours followers would be killed and you are trapped with Mayor, without any way to escape.

 

I tried going to Khoth too, passed his first defenders (on world map) using Orb. However, then those golems. Unfortunately I will have to wait like in Erika case.

 

In caves east of Great Cave is remote hut, with some monster... after defeating them it's possible to learn Dispel Barrier lvl1, but that fight is huh, rather sad exprience. Two woods are killing my tank, then one aranea is using AoE spell to kill my 3 casters, I'm wonder why developers placed that there. I mean, it's rather impossible to defeat them before Sliths, so still all players will learn that spell before being able to win that fight.

There is some way to start fight during encounters? Maybe it will save me, considering I bought fireblast for my 2 mages recenly. however it isn't that great after all, taking into account I can only cast it 6 times per one mage using all mana, but hey, perfect thing for fast fights.

 

Just look at it:

 

 

 

And the most important question.

Best armors? Could someone name few of them? I found in cache Blessed Breastplate (34 armor, -20 to hit), but I'm still using as tank Shining Silk Robe (12 armor, +some resistances without penalty)

[The Reverend]

The blessed breastplate is good for a tank, and can be gotten fairly early from that cache - they are some better armors later, but the blessed breastplate will serve you well for a while. Just make sure the wearer has plenty of their primary attack stat to overcome the to-hit penalty.

 

Level 13 is a bit early to go see Erika, especially on torment. I'd try again after gaining a few more levels.

 

Also, as you've noticed, the high-level spells use up a lot of mana which makes them difficult to cast many times until you get to a higher level (I consider 13 still fairly early for torment - I've found that many things start to get more manageable at around level 20 on that difficulty). Magical efficiency can help somewhat with being able to cast expensive spells more frequently (some people disagree, but I have found it useful in limited amounts on torment). And of course making sure you invest in intelligence for your priests and mages.

 

For tips on what to do at various levels, the first place I'd look is the guide linked in Jerakeen's signature (http://keepersofavadon.com/WDIDN/WDIDNAEFTP.html).

[Languorous_Maiar]

I did it. Completed it. 10 days, 86h.

I could say a lot, but even torment with proper party building was pretty easy. (at 20 lvl I could kill almost everyone with problems or not, at 25 lvl when everyone has adrenaline rush, it became even more easier)

 

It's kinda funny, because my first game at easy/normal was harder that now at torment, however, latter game was a lot more enjoyable.

 

As for encounters, level decides if player or NPCs are first, and I would say it's pretty important.

Also, I found that attributes are capped at 40. (any guide don't mention it)

 

The only real problem, which was pretty hard to solve was with fiery pack quest.

Basically, I needed to do it at 20 lvl, otherwise I couldn't get my reward... so it took me 1 hour of loading and trying to win that fight.

Surviving first attack, using immortality potion, escaping as someone, resurrecting dead party members... hardest fight in the game admittedly.

 

Level 13 is a bit early to go see Erika, especially on torment. I'd try again after gaining a few more levels.

At 20 lvl I still couldn't pass it. However, I killed everything beyond the wall using ice rain.

So, even 13 lvl isn't too early, as soon as you get ice rain you can get to her using that exploit/tactic.

 

As for spells:

Ice rain is damn good, especially at 3 lvl. Using it for all game and never dissapointed me.

Fireblast I used mainly for golems and undeads.

And the arcane blow, learned it at 30 lvl, used only during 3 ending sequences and was pretty great, considering at 30 lvl I hadn't so big problems with mana.

 

Thanks for all advices, now I'm waiting for remake of Avernum 2... or maybe I will play Avernum 4.

Really good job Jeff, all that sandbox system and battle mechanics, while there were few flaws, it's nothing compared to overall beauty of this game.

[stranger]

Also, I found that attributes are capped at 40. (any guide don't mention it)

I read this on a guide here before I played the game.

It is not quite capped, the automatic +1 to a skill on level up will still occur.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The whole rush-stagnant-tunnels strategy seems a lot less viable on Torment just because I can't imagine how you'd ever complete enough fights to level up to that point without buying a certain number of spell levels. I imagine you could still save some cash, especially in a multiple-mage party, but the starting four are not enough -- you need to buy haste, etc., just to stay alive and handle the few level-appropriate quests.

 

I'm on level 9 or so now and yeah Blossthus makes the rest of the neph fort look like pattycake. They should've just been having that dude hang out in front all day. I moved on and left him behind. Hopefully while I'm out travelling he'll step out of his room, realize all his friends are dead, and sink into profound depression by the time I make it back around there in a few more levels.

[Randomizer]

There are some places you want to take advantage of terrain. Using doorways and narrow passages to limit the number that can attack you. So attack with a range attack to get their interest and then run away to a position that favors you.

 

This doesn't work outdoors, but inside it allows a single character to succeed even on torment.

[Languorous_Maiar]

The whole rush-stagnant-tunnels strategy seems a lot less viable on Torment

That's why I abolished it, even before starting the game.