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Unbound Servile

Humans vs. Serviles

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Spukrian   

I was wondering ... who do you find superior: the humans or the serviles?

Gameplay-wise, the servile class is more powerful than all the other classes. That said, your question is like asking "who do you think is more powerful, the free person or the enslaved person?" That said, playing a servile in GF4&5 is only marginally different from playing a human class.

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Biologically, humans, clearly.

 

Morally and philosophically, serviles, clearly.

 

In terms of gameplay, neither; the servile class is, probably, ultimately weaker than the shaper/lifecrafter and sorceress; on par with the agent/infiltrator; and stronger than the guardian/warrior and shock trooper.

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alhoon   

But agents, infiltrators and serviles cannot shape! As such, I would say they're weaker than the Good-at-Shaping \ moderate at shaping classes.

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Spukrian   

In GF4&5, whatever you're weak/moderate/strong at doesn't matter as much since you'll make up for your weak spots with equipment.

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alhoon   

If you're weak in melee, you never need to make up for it. Actually if you're strong in Shaping, you don't need to make up for anything except for the unlock spell. OK, a few spores and batons to heal are nice and even at worse, blessing at 3 and healing at 3 are easy.

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I would say that in some ways serviles are superior to humans.

 

First of all, the serviles' adaptational capacities are astonishing. The Shapers made sure that:

 

1. Serviles would never be able to practice magic. it is even stated in the games that the serviles' brain was modified to be incapable to practice magic,

yet they do succeed in overcoming this limitation and learn themselves the magical arts, albeit extremely hard to do so when no self-shaping is applied.

This is also an example of the tremendous willpower that serviles can possess.

 

2. Serviles were made to be a dumb and obedient species, unable to form unique opinions and complex thoughts.

Many serviles become exactly the opposite. This barely requires an explanation. Tons of examples are seen throughout the games.

However one might argue that natural selection and the harsh conditions on Sucia island played a core role in this phenomenom.

Still one cannot deny that this is an amazing accomplishment. Their linguistic capabilities have also vastly improved.

 

 

Futhermore, the serviles seem to be capable of a certain degree of reason, unseen in many other sapient species.

 

1. When a servile forms and opinion or idea, he or she can support it with reasonable arguments.

Even the "mad" (prone to interpretation) Takers support their beliefs with reason. Or, at least, those who aren't outright insane, but nobody is always perfect.

 

2. A servile tents to submit to reason, quicker than any other race, when his/her arguments are proven wrong.

Note that Rydell (leader of the Obeyer sect in G1) eventually sees his cause to be hollow and joins the Awakened.

Evidence of this can be found in G2 in Ellhrah's tomb, where one can find Rydell's tombstone with the inscription: "Came to wisdom too late".

Most humans, on the other hand, tend to cling to their initial opinion, even when it has been proven unsupported, unjust, ...

 

 

Serviles are sentient beings, with a strong sence of empathy and moral compass.

 

1. From my point of view, whenever I aim for the faction with idealistic purposes in mind or the sect with most moral ground, I find this with the serviles.

One can argue that these serviles are foolish and their cause to be in vain but that is also prone to interpretation and opinion.

Anyway, serviles generally firmly and zealously support their chosen cause and try to realise their intents. Moreover, their intents were mostly good at heart.

 

2. When we see violence or malevolence within a servile, it is, in the great majority of cases, directed towards the Shapers or others who mean creations harm.

Note the serviles of Stonespire (Gull Island) in G3 when you play a rebel. When you first encounter them, they mistrust you and are disrespectful,

but when you prove to them that you are loyal to the Rebel cause, they show respect and treat you as an equal.

I must admit that there are some examples of power-hungry, evil or hostile serviles to be found across the games, but this is relatively a rarety to say the least.

In general, serviles tent to be more empathic, sentient and nice than the other sapient species.

Admitted, the human part of the Rebellion is also, mostly, good at heart.

 

 

Other relevant servile facts:

 

1. One cannot come out of the Geneforge series without having noticed the serviles' ... peculiar olfactory organ. Their sense of smell probably overclasses that of

humans.

 

2. Serviles are immensely cute. After reading a random servile saying: "Yummy, shrooms!", one cannot deny the irrefutability of the servile cuteness.

 

3. Serviles are excitable, generally social and sensitive creatures.

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Spukrian   

If you're weak in melee, you never need to make up for it. Actually if you're strong in Shaping, you don't need to make up for anything except for the unlock spell. OK, a few spores and batons to heal are nice and even at worse, blessing at 3 and healing at 3 are easy.

Yes, it's true that Shaping is the strongest and Melee is the weakest. With that said, in GF4&5 you are able to make characters who are "Swiss Army Knives", no weak spots to speak of.

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To expand on this a little. Shaping is the strongest mechanic in the games, but shaping skills are not the most important part of that mechanic. There's never a great need to raise any shaping skill above 10; depending on the game, it may not even be useful to do so; characters with bad skill rates in shaping can easily make use of equipment to boost it (since they only have to wear it temporarily); and, perhaps most importantly, it is never really worthwhile for the PC to invest in more than one type of shaping skill.

 

Furthermore, while shaping is the strongest mechanic, there are real benefits from going solo, as many things are faster and simpler. It's a different play style, to be sure.

 

In terms of the actual skills, magic skills are the strongest ones: it's a serious handicap for any playstyle to skip Blessing Magic; and Mental Magic is potentially as powerful as shaping, if properly attended to; and serious magic-users do want to raise multiple skills, unlike serious shapers. Also, unlike shaping skills, it is actually useful to raise magic skills above 10 (Mental Magic, again, in particular).

 

This is why the top classes are those penalized in melee, which matters the least; the middle, alternate-playstyle classes are those penalized in shaping, which can be played around; and the lower tier classes are those penalized in magic, which can't really be played around.

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alhoon   

First, I respectfully disagree that going for one skill is good; Fire creation have cold attacks (Cryoras, cryodrayk). Magic creations pack a lot of damage (Vlish\Wingbolts\Gazers). Battle creations are good meatshields.

So, I would say 5-6 in magic\Fire and 3 battle is a good target, and the rest by equipment.

Then you sink a LOT of points in mechanics, leadership and of course intelligence. ;) You can never have too much essence.

You can afford 7 top-tiers? You can still use more essence to bump them up

 

Shapers\lifecrafters\Shocktroopers are best because they have a lot of essence. Nothing I've seen beats essence. A class that would be bad in melee, moderate in shaping and bad at magic but has x2 essence than Shaper would IMO be the strongest class.

As such, Agents, infiltrators and serviles are in my opinion the weakest. A 20th level Agent would have strong mind magic and all...and half the creations of a 20th level Shocktrooper.

 

 

Yes, Agent may be fun to play. But Shocktrooper would be hands-down easier.

Shocktroopers don't need more than 3-4 blessing and mind 3 to open locks. Then, like Shapers, they can sit in the corner of the map and let their creations do the work. And Healing is a shaping skill... so if regen aura is in the game Shocktroopers get even more out of their class.

And yes, I'm talking about a shocktrooper that completely ignores combat skills (except parry) and strength. Who cares about armor? Same build as Shaper with less magic and more parry; perhaps a bit more dex. Still easier than Agent IMO. And more boring.

 

And you also have to look your friends in they eye and explain to them why on earth you play a combat-2nd class and never touch combat skills aside of parry 5-6. And sell items that give strength and keep items that boost blessing magic. And you pay to raise magic skills while you don't even bother with canisters of combat skills.

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You're asserting things here that simply aren't true.

 

1) Battle creations are not any better at being meatshields than other creations.

 

2) Fire creations do have cold attacks, but there are few to no situations where this is a meaningful advantage over magic attacks. (Enemy wingbolts are not one, because fire creations lack magic resistance.) In some games, it won't hurt you too much to diversify as a shaper; in others, where mechanics favor pumping shaping skill more, it will; but you definitely never need to.

 

3) Using essence to "bump up" top tier creations is one of the most inefficient and pointless things you can do in the series.

 

4) In G4 and G5, Agents and Infiltrators get 87.5% the Essence of a Shaper or Lifecrafter, so I think you may be overstating the diffrence here.

 

Essence is very useful, but it also isn't the only thing that affects shaping. In many of the games, you are better off keeping a lower level creation around to level up, than you are making a higher level creation. A set of levelled up vlish (or a few drayks or wingbolts, or whatever) consistently supported by buffs, healing, and mental magic, are going to be a lot more formidable than a set of high-essence, top tier creations where the amount of spellcasting support is limited by the PC's skill level (i.e., buffs that don't last) or spell energy.

 

Shock Troopers are the class that is most frequently made fun of for being so unimpressive. You phrase your assertions so strongly, you put them in bold, but the reality is you're flying in the face of a decade-long general consensus here. I'm not really interested in arguing this further, so I'm going to leave it at that.

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alhoon   

That 12.5% is 1 more gazer. ;)

And you have less essence because you need some combat skills and your healing skill costs more. Hence you're 1-2 intelligence down from a Shaper of your lever + 12.5% less essence.

 

Agreed, bumping up is an extremely inefficient thing to do with Essence, I don't disagree on that. BUT if you have 7 tier 5s and 300 essence remaining, you can bump them.

PS. I had a 44 level Cryora with boosted str and dex is GF5. Cost less than a Cryodrayk, did about the same damage and had so much dex nothing could hit her!

And that's the only case in 2 1/2 games I didn't regret putting essence to a creation.

 

 

Well, I mean I boost creations I am sentimentally attached with, knowing full well that they're not worth it. That Cryora was the only one that, at the late game, was worth the essence. She was better than the Cryodrayk I had with me for long, and cheaper.

 

 

EDIT: Kyshaaks can tank and use magic. Drayks are not too shabby in close combat for their cost compared to Alphas.

Magic creations are interesting and pack a punch, but less hp.

So... I guess an agent could go for Fire \ magic mostly but still misses out compared to a Shaper that has more diversity.

 

 

 

Anyway, to return to the question of the OP: I consider the Servile the weakest possible class although that opinion doesn't seem to align with the consensus in this forum.

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Lilith   

Alhoon... you're seriously arguing that the Shock Trooper is a better class than Agents, Infiltrators, and Serviles?

 

O_o

 

speaking as that weirdo who did a no-magic shock trooper run in g4 i would actually rate the shock trooper above the servile in that game tbh. the game throws enough items at you that you honestly can work around having little or no magic when you really need to (although seriously please at least invest in healing craft if you're not doing a self-imposed challenge)

 

they're still more or less strictly worse than a lifecrafter, which is a big part of the reason they get made fun of, but "strictly worse than the best class in the game" isn't such a bad position to be in, in absolute terms

 

edit: come to think of it i guess it depends how you define "better". the shock trooper does something that's very effective (making lots of strong creations) but doesn't do it as well as the lifecrafter, while the servile is the best at what it does (melee combat backed up by magic) but i'd argue that what it does just isn't as good

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alhoon   

Well, that's my position on it too Lilith, but I would also add that Shocktrooper would for me be kinda boring: A shaper with less magic. I wouldn't invest in combat skills; I would still rely on my creations and perhaps a little parry and a baton to carry the day.

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Lilith -- it's not so much about melee. Remember the nickname the servile had on the forums when G4 came out? "Turtle mage." The servile gets an HP bonus, much better Parry, I think extra End (not sure), an easier time wearing heavy armor than Agents or Shapers, and an easier time layering on armor and augmentation spells than Guardians. A properly prepared servile can plow right through mines that will kill other characters. Most shaper builds are fragile, and blast with overwhelming offense; the servile is the opposite, tough enough to survive anything and heal back up without ceasing to attack, even if his attack is weaker. It's a different strategy, and not as easy to use as optimized shaping, for sure.

 

Also, I'm not saying useful consumables are irrelevant or should be ignored, but if your demonstration would fall apart without heavy use of them, I think it weakens the argument.

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Lilith   

my experience was that having a bunch of creations to take hits for you was at least as good a defensive strategy as being able to take a bunch of hits on your own, not just because creations are more disposable (i usually reloaded when they died tbh) but because some of the higher-tier ones come with unreasonably good resistances right out of the box. a lot of the most dangerous things you fight in mid-to-late-game g4 and g5 use energy attacks, and a wingbolt or gazer of your own can tank energy attacks as well or better than even the tankiest servile. and you can easily get wingbolts by halfway through g4, so that's basically your endgame build sorted right there. in g5 you can get war tralls around the same point in the game instead and they're pretty dang solid too just by virtue of having way too many hp

 

it's true that a tanky servile build can walk through some minefields that other builds can't but that's a fairly niche advantage, given that there aren't that many minefields where just walking through them is the best option for getting past

 

also if we're saying that dependence on consumables weakens a build then i'd point out that i'm not sure the servile is all that much less consumable-dependent than the shock trooper, because they really need healing items to be able to keep themselves alive while still taking other actions

 

ultimately, though, a tank build is certainly viable and a servile is the obvious choice for it if that's the build you're going for, so there's a clear reason to use a servile if you prefer a particular play style. meanwhile, a shocktrooper has a number of advantages over the servile in isolation if you look at the two classes side by side and it's possible to argue it's an easier class to use overall, but the existence of the lifecrafter means there's just not a lot of reason why you'd use a shocktrooper. it's an interesting situation

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alhoon   

A friend of mine prefers swords from magic generally. He plays warriors in games etc. With the emphasis these games place on Shaping, I believe he would play a Shocktrooper. He has played the first games as a Guardian.

 

Strange... I have to doublecheck this.

 

I could get a screenshot, but it's a hassle. :)

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Hold up is this forum about serviles vs humans or shock troopers vs the world... It's not shock troopers fault she is by far the weakest most contradicting class ever... Just saying... But then there are serviles * sighs * vomits ... * looks at classes for geneforge 4... * vomits

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Scourge of the Rebellion: please stop making multiple posts in a row that are 2 minutes apart and are 1 sentence each. I'm asking you this nicely, but as a mod.

 

Once in a while, it happens, we get it, but you're doing it all the time. This is a clear sign that you usually have more than 1 sentence to say, so you should stop and think "what do I have to add?" before hitting the Post button. And if you do think of something 10 minutes later, just use the Edit button to add it to the post you just made.

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/mod hat off

 

ultimately, though, a tank build is certainly viable and a servile is the obvious choice for it if that's the build you're going for, so there's a clear reason to use a servile if you prefer a particular play style. meanwhile, a shocktrooper has a number of advantages over the servile in isolation if you look at the two classes side by side and it's possible to argue it's an easier class to use overall, but the existence of the lifecrafter means there's just not a lot of reason why you'd use a shocktrooper. it's an interesting situation

I can agree with that. I do feel the need to emphasize though that servile vs shaper is an actual different play style, and not inherently inferior: since "play style" seems to be brought up on these boards most frequently to justify things that are actually the identical playstyle with worse numbers, like archers in A2CS, or just "I like melee more than magic no matter what the numbers say," etc.

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alhoon   

As I've mentioned, I have a friend that played the Geneforge games (or the demos for some games) and he prefers swords from magic. So Shocktrooper is an actual choice for him.

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On the servile vs. shock trooper discussion, I have to go with the servile. A servile can be a very powerful and fun class to play, but you have to do it the right way. If you go wrong on your build, you will most likely end up with an underpowered character. A servile can rely on creations to back him up, but only to a lesser extent.

I'm not sure whether or not a shock trooper is as good at shaping as a shaper/lifecrafter (I thought she is not), but a shock trooper is weak in magic and this is where

she is a let down for me. I found magic (blessing and mental, not battle) to be unmissable in the Geneforge games.

The shock trooper is basically a bulky shaper/lifecrafter with less magic, while the servile is a unique build on its own.

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Spukrian   

I could get a screenshot, but it's a hassle. :)

Don't worry, I trust you. It's been a while since I last played GF5. I don't have it installed on this computer though, so I can't check my old saves right now.

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alhoon   

With a Shaper, I never had trouble in geneforge games (early 3 finished 4-5) with just a little blessing magic and no mind spells aside of unlock; I finished GF4 having bought 2-3 points in blessing magic, same with GF5. So far I don't plan to invest in blessing magic more than required for speed in GF3. Although, to be sincere, in GF3 I can't cast speed much (yet) because the Shaper doesn't have much energy... :(

 

Since the Shocktrooper is good at Shaping and Servile is weak, and I've never found the need for more than 3 in blessing \ mind magic, personally I consider Shocktrooper better although I've been told not many agree with me.

It's actually the class I plan to play as when I replay GF4.

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I've been told not many agree with me.

It's merely a matter of playstyle. Honestly, I've played a shaping class most of the time and I like them very much, but a servile just fits my playstyle better.

If the shocktrooper fits your playstyle, I think she can be pretty powerful, but she doesn't fit me mostly because of her lack of magical potential.

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alhoon   

Nah, she doesn't fit my playstyle. I want to be Shaping pro first (based on intelligence, not shaping skills), magic second. Combat skills non-existent.

 

 

If I replay GF4, I'll have a "shocktrooper" that rarely participates in battles and just sink points into intelligence, Mechanics\leadership, Shaping skills, endurance, Parry. I will raise dex, missile weapons by 2 (probably training in the Fence) and go for blessing 3-4 and mind 3.

 

 

I just want some greater challenge and a reason to use all these spores, pods and stuff I collect. Perhaps I'll even use a wand! Who knows.

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I just want some greater challenge and a reason to use all these spores, pods and stuff I collect. Perhaps I'll even use a wand! Who knows.

Ah yes, there I can find you:)

 

Anyways, what about the original discussion? Do you find humans to be superior to the servile race or not?

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alhoon   

Wait, as a race or play characters?

 

As a race, sure. A lot of serviles are mentally deficient to the point they can't survive by themselves and need handlers.

 

As for their adaptability that was mentioned... that's made with Shaper magic. The Shapers don't mind Shaping serviles. In GF4, the Shapers create a new kind of loyal servile; Shaped into adulthood. The poor guy even says he'll die at the end of the rebellion and he's sad that he won't be able to serve the Shapers anymore. Rogia, in GF5 is one such servile I think; not a turncoat, a double agent.

Hence, I don't think Serviles are easy to adapt; they just are genetically modified when adaption is needed.

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Wait, as a race or play characters?

I meant as a race.

 

Hence, I don't think Serviles are easy to adapt; they just are genetically modified when adaption is needed.

I think they exceed humanity at adaptation. And for that, I gave the example of the Sucia Island serviles. They become basically the exact opposite

of what they were meant to be, without Shapers shaping them. Futhermore they learn themselves magic while the servile brain was hardcoded to not be able

to perform magic. Examples of this are also seen on Sucia Island (way before the Magus Complex appeared). The Shrine of Defiance is a sect of serviles who

teach themselves magic. Their temple is located near Kazg. They were looked upon as being fanatic and so they were banished to the outer reaches of the area

surrounding Kazg. But serviles managed to teach themselves magic without Shaper intervention.

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Blxz   

I think the Shapers/humans are currently in a superior position across racial lines. I don't think they are inherently superior as a race though. There is ample evidence that serviles can be at least as intelligent the most intelligent humans in the game and that the fact they are totally dominated is partially the reason for them being so inferior in the game.

 

As a race they do have a pretty sad lot for the most part but that is situational and I wouldn't put it down to a racial inferiority. On average though they do seem to be poorly educated and pretty needy. I think their culture is pretty lacking and what little there is kinda disgusts me (messy slob behaviour, dangerous tribal mentality, etc.). The more intelligent, determined, and successful serviles tend to exhibit culturally more along the lines of the shapers and humans.

 

Of course this could well be my own biases but I'd say it is pretty consistent across the game. Given the limited scope though it really is difficult to make sweeping statements like this.

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alhoon   

Actually you're right they're adaptive. BUT, at the time of the games, they're still inferior IMO.

Most reptiles are faster to adapt than humans. That doesn't make lizards superior to us.

 

 

Blxz: You also said "situationally inferior" and not "inherently inferior". I would disagree. While some serviles are educated and can speak, there are also Serviles that cannot learn to speak well even if they're free for years.

Even in the ranks of the rebels, there are Servile carers.

Half the race being on range of human intelligence and half of it significantly below it would make them a less intelligent race. Truly smart serviles, to the level of the average spy or researcher (agent \ shaper or mage) are far fewer. Aside of Mekhen that was exceptionally smart, I've not seen many serviles that could do espionage if it wasn't for them being ignored and overlooked.

Another thing is that many serviles have the creation aversion to rogues, panic easily and are confused easily.

Mekhen in GF5 was reverting back to slave within a year, hence I would say they're much easier to brainwash.

 

I would say Serviles have an average IQ about 15 less than humans (with standard deviation 10, mean 100 for humans). As such, the 0.6% of Serviles are smarter than the 84% of humans. But the 93% of humans is smarter than 50% of serviles.

 

About Servile magic:

Not that impressive. :)

 

About Servile longevity:

There are very long-lived serviles and there are variants that are short-lived. Literally in the same game I'll see descriptions of "He\she is old even by the standards of the long-lived serviles!" but also "Serviles are not long lived" leaving me with the opinion that mine-duty serviles at least, are not long-lived*

*Although thinking of it, that may be situational and not genetic. In GF3, in the academy, you're given a hypothetical question about a crystal mine where Serviles die by the dozen.

 

 

Senses:

I have no idea if Serviles listen or hear better than humans. They're not exceptionally good or bad, but are they somewhat better\worse? No idea.

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Most reptiles are faster to adapt than humans. That doesn't make lizards superior to us.

In fact, reptiles are not an adaptory species at all. There are exeptions but most reptiles have gone through very little to no evolution compared to humans (e.g. aligator).

And those exeptions are more prone to adaptation at biological and fysiological levels. If we look at the average reptil brain, it consists mainly of a cerebellum, whose main function is to handle motory functions. According to research, the reptile complex isn't all that flexible either. The reptile complex has also little to no cognitive capabilities; they rely mainly on reflexes with poor inhibitory functions. When I stated that the serviles are exeptionally good at adaptation, I was referring to to the serviles' mental adaptational capacities.

 

I would say Serviles have an average IQ about 15 less than humans (with standard deviation 10, mean 100 for humans). As such, the 0.6% of Serviles are smarter than the 84% of humans. But the 93% of humans is smarter than 50% of serviles.

First of all, I would not make any statements about a fictional race's intelligence score. Moreover, you calculations are wrong. The standard deviation for Wechsler IQ tests is 15, not 10. The Gauss-curve equasion for Wechsler intelligence distribution is:

 

f(x)=(1/15√(2π))⋅e^-(x-100)^2/2⋅15^2

 

To calculate how many humans are smarter than the average servile, we can use the following equasion (we assume the average servile to have an IQ of 85):

 

∫(85,+∞)(f(x)=(1/15√(2π))⋅e^-(x-100)^2/2⋅15^2)dx=0,8413447404

 

We can also use the command "normalcdf(a,b,µ,σ)".

 

This means that 84% of humanity is more intelligent than the average servile.

However, I think that the servile intelligence distribution curve is alot flatter than the human equivalent.

This means that the Gauss-curve for servile intelligence has a higher σ value than the human intelligence curve and that there are alot more unintelligent serviles than unitelligent humans, but also more intelligent serviles than intelligent humans. I think this to be the case. However, we can only make vague assumptions about a servile's IQ.

 

About Servile magic:

Not that impressive. :)

I never said that the serviles' magical capacities exceed that of humans, nor did I say that I found servile magic to be all that impressive. What is impressive is that the serviles learned themselves magic, while the Shapers tried to shape in the serviles a barrier that would make them incapable of performing any magic. By the way, in game mechanics, the serviles are still average magicians.

 

About Servile longevity:

There are very long-lived serviles and there are variants that are short-lived. Literally in the same game I'll see descriptions of "He\she is old even by the standards of the long-lived serviles!" but also "Serviles are not long lived" leaving me with the opinion that mine-duty serviles at least, are not long-lived*

*Although thinking of it, that may be situational and not genetic. In GF3, in the academy, you're given a hypothetical question about a crystal mine where Serviles die by the dozen.

I never gave servile longevity as an example of servile superiority, since some real-life animals exceed the human lifespan by several decades, but humans are still the dominant race on earth and I dare even to say in existance.

 

EDIT: The Spiderweb forum text editor apparently doesn't like copy/pasted equasions from Grapher, so I had to type them manually. Sorry if they look messy.

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alhoon   

Well... you asked me a question. I based my answer on stuff, including longevity and the impressiveness of Servile's magic.

You can disagree with me, apparently you do, but to say "hey! I didn't mention longevity!" won't disqualify it from my assessment. ;)

 

Perhaps we should... ask Blxz that knows biology and some sociologist or something what ACTUALLY counts as "this create > that creature"

Does longevity count? Does adaptability? How important is reason anyway? What about procreational abilities? How about resistant to the elements and how good the creature is in surviving in its environment?

 

Unless we find a semi-legit answer to that... I'll keep mention longevity as an important factor, reason and intellect as another one, magic-impressiveness as a third one...

and consider adaptability and lack of ability to procreate effectively not that important.

 

Another factor: Serviles have a greater tendecy to become tribal and wild. Even smart serviles fall to that often. Like Footracer in GF5 but also others that I forget.

 

But I agree that the ability of the Serviles to learn magic, even unimpressive, through scarification was very very good.

But still... not that impressive magic. We already established that Serviles are adaptable creatures. I'm not convinced that this is as important as their deficient intelligence or lack of ability to survive without help.

 

PS. I'm a teaching assistant in the University and one of the subjects I assist my professor with is statistics. I love them.

Keep them coming.

HOWEVER, I'm not sure everyone else loves statistics. So... I'll use spoilers. NOTE TO PEOPLE: read the spoilers, I don't get too technical. Even less than Unbound Servile.

 

 

The whole thing is, of course, based on my assumptions. I say the reasons of my assumptions but of course your assumptions may differ.

 

1. When I said 85 on a N(100,10), I basically meant: "Average Servile IQ is IMO 1.5σh below human." with σh being "human IQ standard deviation".

If the right one is σh=15 for humans, then Serviles should have average IQ of 77.5. I.e the number 93% of humans smarter than 50% of serviles was the one I was targeting.

 

2. I would disagree on standard deviation being flatter for serviles. On the contrary, since they are created creatures, I would say σs (standard deviation of IQ for serviles) would be LOWER than humans.

They didn't develop naturally, they were created. As such, smaller variation.

 

There's also reason to believe (GF4 directly and GF3-5 hints from what I've seen) that serviles are STILL created. Hence, reducing their deviation more.

In GF4, the Shapers created smarter Serviles, but they were few. That would create a bimodal distribution.

HOWEVER those smart serviles were fanatically loyal to the Shapers and used as spies. Little chance they procreated.

 

In GF4 and GF5 it's also mentioned that the new generations of serviles are also made dumber by the Shapers. Hence the distribution is getting skewed to the bad side.

 

3. Back to the numbers. If we go (well, me, I don't think I convinced you) at σh=15 and that 85% of humans is smarter than 50% of serviles, we get that the average IQ of serviles is about 84.

Now with a slightly more narrow normal distribution for the serviles N(84,12), since σs=10 gives very very few serviles smarter than the average human, we have that 9% of serviles have IQ > 100 and that just 1/200 serviles has IQ>115, i.e. is smarter than a smart human.

 

 

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Blxz   

This is theory crafting beyond my ability. I tend to deal in real world facts for the most part. I can occasionally dip into the nerdy realm and debate non-existent stuff but for the most part my interest doesn't lie in that direction.

 

I'll leave it up to you guys to arm-wrestle out the facts. I don't think I can add much more than what I've already written.

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Spukrian   

I see serviles as being equal to humans, biologically speaking. The few differences aren't significant, as serviles are able overcome their shortcomings. Their inferiority is due to Shaper oppression.

 

Don't worry, I trust you. It's been a while since I last played GF5. I don't have it installed on this computer though, so I can't check my old saves right now.

Last time I played GF5 I was a servile only using disposable creations, so the only way to check my facts is if I replay the game, which I don't feel like doing right now.

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Does longevity count? Does adaptability? How important is reason anyway? What about procreational abilities? How about resistant to the elements and how good the creature is in surviving in its environment?

 

Unless we find a semi-legit answer to that... I'll keep mention longevity as an important factor, reason and intellect as another one, magic-impressiveness as a third one...

and consider adaptability and lack of ability to procreate effectively not that important.

This is actually why I started this thread. Whether serviles are superior or not depends on how you define "superior". Our interpretations clearly differ at some points, but I think we share an overall similar opinion. We both put mental development (such as intelligence) as a prime factor for superiority. Adaptation is incredibly important to a species' survival, but is it a hallmark of superiority? Without going to much into depth, I think it is. Adaptation increases the chance for a species to be "succesful", so adaptation is at least a catalyst for superiority. Personally, I find reason, morality, empathy, ... to be important factors for superiority too, and serviles score high in that area.

 

Another factor: Serviles have a greater tendecy to become tribal and wild. Even smart serviles fall to that often. Like Footracer in GF5 but also others that I forget.

Agreed, this is a good argument for servile inferiority. It is a pity, a flaw in servilekind. On the other hand, we encounter less servile bandits than human bandits. Some serviles have indeed a tendency to become savage, but humans with a similar urge tend to resort to banditry.

 

PS. I'm a teaching assistant in the University and one of the subjects I assist my professor with is statistics. I love them.

Keep them coming.

Cool :)

 

2. I would disagree on standard deviation being flatter for serviles. On the contrary, since they are created creatures, I would say σs (standard deviation of IQ for serviles) would be LOWER than humans.

Now that I think more of it, I'm not sure if the Gauss-curve is a valid representation of servile intelligence distribution.

I think that the distribution looks more like χ^2 (k) with k ϵ[3,6] (density function, not cumulative). So with alot of "extremely dumb" serviles, but, compared to humans, also more "extremely intelligent" serviles.

 

They didn't develop naturally, they were created. As such, smaller variation.

Actually ...

 

On Sucia Island you learn that serviles were probably not invented by Shapers, but that the serviles as we know them are an ancient race altered by the Shapers.

 

 

There's also reason to believe (GF4 directly and GF3-5 hints from what I've seen) that serviles are STILL created. Hence, reducing their deviation more.

In GF4, the Shapers created smarter Serviles, but they were few. That would create a bimodal distribution.

I agree on the bimodal distribution model. I would say that before Shapers started mass producing dumb serviles around the time of G4 (and after the "rise of servilekind" in G1), the servile intelligence distribution curve looked somewhat like:

 

f(x)=1/π√(x(1-x))

 

Which is an arcsine distribution curve. It's maybe a bit of an extremist point of view, but examples sometimes need to represent extremes.

 

In GF4 and GF5 it's also mentioned that the new generations of serviles are also made dumber by the Shapers. Hence the distribution is getting skewed to the bad side.

I agree. This new generation makes the servile intelligence distribution curve look more like a chi-square density curve (with approximately 4 degrees of freedom).

 

When it comes to intelligence, I think, as I said before, that there are far more unintelligent serviles than unintelligent humans, but more servile individuals on the utter right end of the curve. Since, in a chi-squared distribution µ=k, it is more likely that serviles have a lower average IQ than humans, though.

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alhoon   

X2 may seem good... but it produces too smart serviles! Frakly, the amount of servilles that could be considered smart (let alone geniouses like Moseh, Taygen, Rawal, the lads that made the geneforge...) is very limited. Which of course can't be easily determined since a "would-have-been-smart" servile that is not even taught to speak correctly and only learns to sweep floors will have learned to sweep floors faster and that is it.

 

PS. Avoid using many degrees of freedom.

 

PS2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_distribution

That's what we should be looking at.

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