TheKian

9 hours ago, MadCreator said:

I'm currently redesigning most of the creations and a good chunk of items and have a few more questions.

 

Is there any way to make weapons two-handed? (I know it's a long shot but figured I'd ask)

 

Is there some list of effects on death? Wondering because the dozen or so used are numbered so sporadically, but the random couple of numbers I tried outside those had no results.

 

Is there any way to get retaliation effects innate on creatures, thorny aura style? I swear I've seen it, but maybe I'm thinking Avernum.

 

Does vampiric touch actually do nothing like my brief tests indicate or am I missing something?

 

Just trying to make unstable/grossly overpriced creations interesting/ actually useful (seriously wth magic shaping in general?! Charged Vlish especially makes me nauseous.)

 

1. No, weapons cannot be made 2-handed.

2. Looking at them, I believe death effects (as defined by cr_effect_when_slain in the creature scripts) are just visual effects, corresponding to begindefinesfx ### in the objsmisc definitions file. Possibly means they are hardcoded in for particular creations, like being unstable.

3. Runewarded Thahds in G4 certainly had effects on you when you hit them, but if I were to guess they're script-based instead of definition-based. The zone script set them to have some ability, but it doesn't correspond to any abilities in the definitions file, so I would guess they have a custom creature script set in the scenario file.

4. Never used vampiric touch, but looks like it doesn't work according to Randomizer.

5. You can certainly improve creations (increase health, base level, give bonuses to some stats [although basic attributes can't be changed], improve attacks, etc.), but you cannot make unstable creations not unstable - that's hardcoded. Frankly, having creations that cannot even leave a zone is so entirely worthless that I can't imagine much that could make them useful.

7 hours ago, "Nothing Left" said:

 

Huh, I stand corrected!  Avadon, the Avernum Remakes and on definitely do make it possible to edit those in the scripts, but I guess Geneforge doesn't.

 

Doesn't changing the name of the ability also affect the tooltip for the spell (and for any items that use that ability)?  That's really what I'm remembering (not the spell selection dialogue box) so if I'm wrong about that then I really gotta question my recollection.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the tooltip, but the only thing I have seen that gets changed is in the text box. Spell descriptions and spell names in the GUI are hardcoded into the executable. For example, in one of my private mods, I changed lightning aura (since it's useless) to a spell called plasma lances, which showed the different name in the text box but remained the exact same (excepting the different essence/energy cost) in the GUI. It's relatively easy to modify in the executable, but I'm 99.99% sure anything in the GUI outside the dialog box is hardcoded.

 

If I were to guess, perhaps (I haven't played any Spiderweb games outside Geneforge, disclaimer) since there are those official Blades of _______ thingies, the other games were designed to be more modifiable?

54 minutes ago, "Nothing Left" said:

Class names would be a herculean effort to change, even with raw data editing.

 

Spell names (and item descriptions, IIRC -- but this has changed in different SW games) can easily be edited in the defs files.  For spells in particular, note that the spell name and the corresponding spell-knowledge name (i.e., you have 2 levels in Firebolt, and you cast Firebolt in battle) are in 2 different places.

 

Definitely agree with you about consumables.  Torment players are more likely to be serious optimizers and that definitely correlates with avoiding the use of consumables on anything that's not the hardest battle in the game.  It seems to me that consumables are typically used a lot more by casual players, who are less dedicated to optimizing.  But consumables are useful to those players precisely because they have a completely different curve of useful vs. useless than more balanced game elements.  So I think the question is, who's the target audience for your mod?  You can always leave some consumables in the game, and turn others into stuff you like more.

Ability names can be changed in the definitions, but the names in the actual spell selection GUI seem to be hardcoded into the executable. Changing the name of an ability just seems to change the name in the text box when you select the spell (i.e. Firebolt: Select an target).

 

9 hours ago, MadCreator said:

I don't plan on going so far as to step on anyone's toes, especially not the creator of my two favorite game series bar none, and I want as many people to enjoy my mods as possible so I won't touch messing with the executable/ patches. I'll simply post my intro/quest/ending etc. changes in a document people can read posted with everything else.

 

To finish up my questions on immutable game aspects (without a hex editor or such) am I right in assuming spell and class names as well as items descriptions also fall into this category?

 

Also, of wands, crystals and rods, are there any you guys are particularly attached to or inversely feel are useless? I hardly ever use them and was thinking of replacing one or two of them with something more interesting/useful. I'm asking because I just don't like consumables and usually play creation users on normal, unlike many of you who play torment and such so I don't want my mod to change something vital to survival.

 

I also feel like combat focused characters get the shaft in the last couple games and would like to buff them. What kinds of tools/support would you suggest to help? I already plan on some better weapons and unlimited ammo range weapons, as alhoon's  and TheKian's glorious mods inspired me,  but is there anything else you guys might like to see?

 

Specifically concerning Geneforge 5, since it's the game where the best information for modding exists:

 

The stuff you could actually edit in the executable without doing some questionably legal shenanigans to decompile and recompile the program are, in order (with the things you listed that you wanted to know in bold):

Various error messages

List of image codacs?

Month abbreviations

More image codacs?

More error messages

A bunch of stuff specifically related to... cameras?

More errors/confirmation messages

Combat messages

Misc messages

Spell messages

Zone messages

Price categories

Instructive messages

More combat messages

Loading screen messages?

More misc messages

Cheat codes

Option text

Difficulties

Creature creation

Character sheet text

Shop/trainer text

Assorted errors

Item descriptions

More combat messages

More errors

Creation descriptions

Creation tutorial

Class descriptions

Skill names

Spell names

Skill descriptions

Spell descriptions

Quit messages

Special item names

Special item descriptions

Other instructive messages

Help book

GUI Description of Spells

Quest names

Quest descriptions

Loading screen messages

Intro text

Death text

End text

More item descriptions

More spell names and descriptions

More end text

59 minutes ago, "Nothing Left" said:

Be forewarned -- some versions of the games have checksums implemented, so you may or may not be able to run the executable after making that modification.

 

Also, for a few reasons, distributing a modified version of the Geneforge executable itself would be very different from distributing modified text or image files that people can drop into the scripts folder as they prefer (or a completely independent program like TheKian created).  I'm not sure how much that would or wouldn't impede sharing your mod publicly, but it's somewhere between "extra hurdle" and "brick wall", inclusive.

For the record, I'm planning on making a feature with my modding tool that will allow you to patch (or unpatch) a Geneforge executable with a file containing quest information to make releasing mods like that legal. The GOG version of Geneforge 5, at least, doesn't seem to have a checksum, although I don't know about the Steam version.

 

But until such a thing is available, the only way you'd be able to (legally) release a mod that edits the executable would be to make a patcher yourself.

Ending/intro/quest text is located directly in the game's executable. I would use a hex editor like Hexplorer, find where the text is located, and manually change it.

 

The Geneforge Modding Suite (fair note, at the moment it's just a zone editor, item creation or other script things will be added at some point in the future) needs Java to run. It's important to run it using the batch file (run.bat) so you can see any errors and also because the first time you run it you need the console it produces to enter your Geneforge 5 folder location.

Spell abilities gain an additional bonus per level in the ability, and I do not know of any diminishing effects. In the case of firebolt, the base effect value is 4, and each additional level adds 3, so it gives a significant bonus for each additional level. For kill, the base is 40 and each level adds 10, so level 3 kill versus level 1 would give a 50% bonus. Every spell is sufficiently improved by additional levels in it that investing in training them is worth it.

 

For creations, each level in the creation skill gives +1 base level to the creation. The most important bonus for creation skills is, however, the improved version of the creation you unlock at level 3. If you don't care about the improved version of the creation it doesn't really matter unless you want to max out your creations as much as possible.

4 hours ago, Vinlie said:

I'm just saying the Geneforge art made for the women look very nice. Like is this supposed to be Greta on the title screen (assuming this is Greta taken prisoner in Quessa-Uss)? If so, she looking great.

 

https://imgur.com/a/xLvT6Fg

Personally I always assumed that was Miranda getting captured, since Greta was just 'not allowed to leave'.

5 hours ago, alhoon said:

 

Even more convincing argument. Alwan and Greta, with their dialogue and not Shaped, are 100% controlled by the player. I can  send Alwan sit on a bomb and he will do it. That's not because the Shaper in the party commanded him to go and sit on a bomb, but because the PLAYER sent him to sit on a bomb. 

Again, as I said in the first place, it is not major support for the point due to the clearly necessary gameplay/story segregation.

 

Also, having just finished Fallout 1 (on which Geneforge is clearly based), there is a very, very, VERY good gameplay reason for allowing the player to control party members.

RIP Dogmeat

In regards to the mental development of new creations, there are a couple things to note. First, we know for a fact that Shapers (and Lifecrafters) can directly control the mind of a creation; this is presumably how the player controls his own creations. This would allow for controlling a freshly made creation without it being able to function on its own.

 

When we encounter Shapers that make and direct large amounts of creations, they explicitly state that they don't directly control them (I believe either a Shaper in Alwan's citadel or in one of the border forts in G5 says this). Whichever Shaper it was had something like 50 creations in the field, but they were able to be given brief attention/instructions and then carry them out on their own. The player would presumably be unable to do this due to inexperience in the first three games or lack of Shaper training in the last two, at least for a hand wave as to why the player can't do it. Presumably, the battle betas Ess-Eschas mentions from the Illya Safehouse are not being directly controlled, but are being (if you will) supplied for non-Shaper/Lifecrafter use, hence their need to develop their brains before being able to be used.

 

(Edit: I should mention that Slarty says sort of the same thing, albeit in less detail. However, on the subject of what Slarty said, I have to theorize, although it is unprovable, that taking direct control of creations requires a permanent/indefinite expenditure of essence, perhaps as a result of the necessary bond between the player and his creations)

 

This is also supported (slightly, given separation of gameplay and story) by the lack of any intelligent presence of player-made creations, even when they are highly intelligent species like drayks, drakons, gazers or ornks.

There seems to be some confusion about what cloning actually means versus the nonsensical cloning frequently depicted in science fiction. Based on the description of how experimental Shaping (i.e. without using canisters or knowledge of genes) works, there is clearly a base identical genetic template that is used for any given creation. If the basic template genetically varied, then there would not be predictable effects for a given pattern of 'bombarding it with energy' that is necessary for inventing (and repeating the invention of) new creations. By the actual definition of cloning, which is producing a genetically identical copy of something, Shaping certainly is cloning.

 

The idea of "cloning" in the nonsensical sci-fi manner, however, does not logically reflect the Geneforge world. If it were possible to duplicate a creation's skill and experience in a new creation, then Shapers would presumably incorporate such things into all newly made creations to increase their effectiveness, while what we see (from the games) is that newly made creations outside direct control are typically lost and childlike.

You may want to take a look at my own thread which I shall shamelessly plug.

 

Repeatedly opening and closing a menu (main menu, inventory, cheat screen, etc.) very quickly resets the timer on basically everything, including traps. In some cases I've found that pylon traps or mines will sometimes still trigger (probably depends somewhat on the system), but spamming escape several times a second generally allows you to walk through mines and pylons unharmed. I've found that it even seems to work to bypass enemies (outside of combat mode), although the map doesn't actually update until you stop doing it so it doesn't work especially well for exploration.

 

Also, you don't need to clear the zone to use exitzone. All clearthiszone does is allow you to pass through it on the world map.

Snape, after using the Geneforge, kills Dumbledore with his cryora because Draco Malfoy runs out of essence to cast the kill spell.

 

Oh whoops, sorry. Spoiler.

 

Something to talk about that's generally not very spoilery is that the actual 'factions', as they are, are three brands of serviles (which you see fairly represented in GF2). A big question is what the new faction would be about. Since Jeff is adding a whole new mini storyline to the game, it may involve people who did not previously exist in GF1.

On 7/4/2020 at 12:41 PM, Wizardman468 said:

Hi alhoon,

I just gave TheKian's modding suite for G5 a try. It turns out it doesn't work . I run the .bat file and I enter the file directory for G4 and it doesn't recognize it. I did message TheKian, so I am looking forward to hearing from him. Thank you for bringing up this suggestion, though, alhoon!

The modding suite depends on files from Geneforge 5 for the graphics. It actually loads them directly from the Geneforge 5 directory, so the modding suite will die if it doesn't have a valid Geneforge 5 executable fed to it (partly to make sure that people actually have the game, especially if I want to add any testing features or executable modification capabilities).

 

2 hours ago, Wizardman468 said:

I have a question: Is it possible to mod creations so that they don't decay or is that not possible? For example, I'm trying to make the "Elemental-Rune Thahd," which I made from the "Unstable Thahd" not decay unless it's killed. I can't find anything in the gf4itemschars text file that allows you to let a creation live indefinitely until it gets killed by someone or something. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thank you!

So far as I know, decaying creations are hardcoded into the game, as are a number of other features it would be nice to be able to change. Best you can do is modify a non-decaying creature that is almost never used (like the exploding roamer, or plated artila).

 

By the way, it's best to just edit addendums into your latest post rather than making several posts in a row. While the mods are generally fairly 'chill' (as the kiddos call it), they might not look too kindly on posting several comments right after each other.

I like the artila and vlish art. It's very faithful to the way they look in the game, not as though there has been any art for a creation from all 5 games that doesn't look remotely like it did in any of them.

 

I also note that he mentions that vlish are able to buff you, which seems to indicate that creations will be gaining secondary abilities instead of just having attack-based powers. Because, of course, vlish needed a buff.

The problems with Geneforge being slow are typically restricted to the menus and have not been reported to be accompanied by sound problems (nor have they been in my experience). Make sure that your sound drivers are updated. Also, if your computer is especially potato-y, it may just be that you can't run Geneforge well. You can try the solution from this thread, but I doubt it'll affect the sound. Also, the instructions given in this thread are no longer possible to fulfill.

 

You can download a directdraw wrapper from here (obvious warning, external website), extract the contents of the zip into your game folder and change the config file so that DDraw emulation is enabled.

 

Finally, instead of reviving an old thread, it's better if you just make a new thread and if necessary link to the older thread as a reference.

 

 

At long last, I have released another version of this tool, with a wide array of new features, most importantly the ability to manage data for an entire world at once and exporting it to a complete scenario file. You can see full patch notes in the main post and download the latest version (v1.1) from the main post as well.

11 hours ago, alhoon said:

 

Good analysis but... LotR is totally lore-light when it comes to magic. It's Lore-heavy as it describes the cultures, the language, the history etc. When it comes to magic, it is grossly under-explained. So, while I don't disagree with what you say, the "It is not lore-light, it doesn't deliver the lore you want" (I don't complete agree either though), I kinda find Tolkien's explanations about magic very light.  

The point is that the lore that actually matters, which is the story lore, is well described. Also, I suspect that if what you want is more lore about Shaping, you'll be greatly disappointed. It's been well-established that basically what they do is magically start and rapidly accelerate embryonic development and then bombard it with radiation to change its genome. More lore would either end up breaking the entire point of geneforging or probably veer off into not very interesting biochemistry that Jeff probably doesn't know in the first place.

6 hours ago, alhoon said:

YES! Finally! More lore for the game! I am aware that since I haven't played the first game I am not sure how much lore is there, but from what I've gathered from the future games and discussions in here... not very much. 

Yeah, I mean, Geneforge 1 only has the most lore of the entire series, hardly anything at all.

 

As for the new content:

I'm frankly not sure how I feel about the idea of the cockatrice. A 'chance' to rebound and hit nearby allies? Given that my attacks with an 80% chance to hit miss 80% of the time, I get the feeling I would freaking die if I tried to use it.

 

Thahd looks like... uh... a furry.

 

"The second most popular suggestion was sort of virus, which, well, we decided not to do that."

Very funny.

 

"We have now finished a tenth of the game world, or 8 out of 80 sections."

Frankly, given very recent experiences with making zones from scratch, 8 zones already finished is a quite impressive. If multiple people are working on the game design, then making a zone a day as he mentions is... definitely not slow.

Just to make sure, have you tried changing the screen resolution? I suspect Geneforge 5 doesn't scale the UI elements to your resolution but just repositions them on the screen according to the resolution. A smaller screen resolution would probably produce what you see in the second screenshot. When you start up the game, there's a thing where you can select screen resolution (or if not, you can go to the settings in-game and change that). I tested it with 1024x768 resolution and it basically looks like the second screenshot.

 

As for making the UI in GF5 actually be like that in GF4, I don't think that is possible without modifying the executable itself.

3 minutes ago, alhoon said:

How long to go?! You can't share that kind of news without that part? Please tell me there are 2-3 days more at least for one final push? 

You can just check the time remaining on the kickstarter page linked in the first post. However, for your benefit, there are 5 days left.

There is a canister counter in the original Geneforge. It's fairly minor (off the top of my head, all I can think of is the infodump servile for each faction who shows you a mirror), and there are set places in the game where it tells you about how your body is shifting etc. from the canisters, although that part happens even if you don't use any canisters.

You can still join either of the other servile groups or you can, in fact, kill literally everything you can possibly kill on the island and still win the game.

 

Since you have killed Ellhrah, you've already succeeded the requirement necessary to join the Takers, and you can do the Control Four quest without any guilt.

 

Frankly, while the Awakened are personally my preferred faction, their quest chain is a bit of a dead end anyhow, especially if you want to

 

After much longer than it really should have taken, the first full release of the Geneforge Modding Suite is here! Create and fully customize zones and export them to a complete Geneforge scenario file.

 

NB: Always make a full backup of your Geneforge folders before using any mods.

 

Latest version: Shaper Edition v1.2

Download from Google Drive

 

Shaper Edition v1.1

Download from Google Drive

 

Shaper Edition v1.0

Download from Google Drive

 

 

 

To get started, extract the contents of GeneMS.zip into a directory of your choice and execute run.bat. A console window will appear and ask you to enter your Geneforge 5 directory, where the executable and Geneforge 5 Files folder are (i.e. C:\Program Files\Geneforge 5). After this is entered, the modding suite will load the textures and present you with a blank zone.

 

Geneforge Modding Suite Images

Imgur Album

 

Patch Notes:

Shaper Edition v1.2 Hotfix 2

    Changes:
    -Placing an object or creature on a tile with an existing object or creature no longer deletes objects/creatures present there

 

Shaper Edition v1.2 Hotfix 1

    Bug fixes:
    -Fixed problem with exporting a loaded GeneMS save

 

Shaper Edition v1.2
    Features:
    -Added compass to show directions in zone
    -Added fully functioning minimap
    -Added function to clear items or objects or creatures from zone
    -Added import entire scenario file function
    -Added ability to import terrain from original Geneforge and Geneforge 2 and 3
    -Added ability to rotate or mirror zones
    -Added terrain brush sizes and random tree and floor brushes
    -Added hotkeys
    -Added eyedropper tool to copy ground/terrain tiles, items, objects, creatures (hotkey P)
    -Added autosave (every 10 minutes)
    -Added debug option to print item/object/creature list to console
    -Added ability to edit placed items, objects and creatures (hotkey E)
    -Some very minor miscellaneous quality of life improvements

    Bug fixes:
    -Zones will now display default object/item/creature instead of breaking when something has an invalid ID.
    -Fixed possible error when removing zones.

    Known Issues:
    -Object positioning is still off

 

Shaper Edition v1.1
    Features:
    -Multiple zone support
    -New scenario by default uses original Geneforge 5 world
    -Can import terrain to a zone from a Geneforge 4 zone
    -Can import old GeneMS save to current zone
    -Can save scenario file that contains data for entire world
    -Simpler saving/loading system
    -Saving/loading for entire world data
    -Proper save/save as functions
    -Scenario is exported as it would be in 'Geneforge 5 Files' folder, saved into the 'Export' folder
    -Undo and redo

    Bug fixes:
    -Fixed bug where mouse position was off by one tile
    -Fixed bug involving item removal
    -Fixed incorrect item placement in exported scenarios
    -Fixed incorrect world map locations

    Known issues:
    -Tabbing away from the modding suite may break rendering and/or scrolling

 

Shaper Edition v1.0

    -Import zones from a Geneforge 5 scenario file with Edit->Import->Zone from Scenario File

    -Edit all zone data*

    -Save and load zones you are working on

    -Export zone to create a scenario file, which will copy the scenario file from your Geneforge 5 folder and make a new one in your GeneMS directory

    -High tech scrolling map

    -Some fully nonfunctional menu buttons

    -Kinda terrible ZoneLab tool that nobody remembers how to use anymore

    -Full creature and object editing, with default script information included

*That I could actually figure out

 

To place a tile, terrain piece, item, etc., just left click on the ground where you want to place it. Items, objects and creatures will automatically be aligned to the nearest quarter-tile. To remove terrain, items, objects and creatures, just right click on the tile where you want them removed.

 

Updates:

Shaper Edition v1.2: Quality of Life Update

Shaper Edition v1.1: The World Update

Shaper Edition v1.0: Initial release

 

Upcoming Features:

    -Click and drag walls, paths, shoreline
    -Custom creature names/levels with auto-generated script
    -Load everything (terrain, etc.) from script files

1. Probably.

2. Training magic stats is pretty much always worth it when possible.

3. Most important thing to get as an agent is mental magic. You don't need very much healing craft, and you shouldn't put points into it regardless because it is super expensive for agents. Intelligence is really only necessary for essence.

I'd have to check to see what talking to Sniff does, but if it changes an SDF you can just use the "SDF ___ ___ ___" cheat to replicate it. The bigger problem would be that the Sholai in the cave will be hostile to you. I think that in Geneforge 1, the cheat to make people NOT hate you again is 'pleaseforgiveme'.