Who has the moral high-ground

[The1Kobra]

This poll is about whether you think the layalists have the moral high ground, or the rebels have the moral high ground, or, you could say that both sides are highly corrupt.

[Harlequin]

I would say the rebels, allthough they do seam to be going in an animal-farmish direction.

[Ald]

There are no rebels and loyalists. Is the tower dweller on the fourth island a loyalist? Examples can go on and on.

[Icshi]

Well, the rebels certainly don't have it. Yes, they start out all very well—"We're going to help the poor down-trodden serviles"—and then they go on to say things like "The Shapers will perish indiscriminately by the millions and all the world will burn, BURN, BURN in the fires of the almighty Drakons and all other forms of life will be enslaved or swept away!!!"

 

I think they lost the moral highground when they crossed over from Mother Theresa to Khmer Rouge.

[ThirdParty]

Both sides are corrupt. But I favor the Loyalists, for now. Consider:

• Of the Loyalists we meet in GF3, their reasonableness seems approximately proportional to their power. For the most part, the leaders aze intelligent, compassionate, and merciful. Some of them openly acknowledge that the system must be changed, that the Shaper Empire is unjust; most of the evils are caused by bureaucrats blindly following the rules or by researchers foolishly ignoring them. It seems likely that when reasonable people like those we meet ascend to the top of the Shaper hierarchy, reform will happen; thus, good can come from being patient a little longer. It's also worth noting that even students are hearing rumors that what they've been told about serviles is not entirely true. Can change not come?
• The Rebels are possibly hypocrites. They preach anger that Shaper accidents kill innocents, but they themselves fail to discriminate shapers from civilians in mounting their attacks. They preach that creations should be free, but they make use of serviles just as the Shapers do. They call for knowledge to be shared, but most jealously horde their own power without even sharing it with their fellows in arms. In short, it's not at all obvious that a Rebel-run world would be an improvement, and it would certainly be bloodier. In fact, it might well be less just: notice that the Rebels, in trying to get people to join their cause, tend to mention power first and justice second; whereas the Loyalists tend to focus on good reasons for helping them.
• The Shapers appear to have been proven right about the importance of limiting Shaping power to those who can safely wield it. Reform may be needed in their schools so that honest, stable mages can be allowed to study the arts, but the principle is sound: when a technology can kill thosuands if misused, its use has to be restricted. Global fascism may not be a very palatable response to the threat of high-tech terrorism, but I have yet to hear a better one.
• The Shapers appear to have been proven right about the safety of using canisters and other experimental shortcuts to actual training. In general, the Rebels are less cautious than the Shapers, which implies a greater potential for catastrophic accident. (Reflect: most Shaper mistakes we see in the game are locked up, due to safety measures having been in place; most Rebel mistakes we see in the game are wandering around causing trouble.) If our first concern is the safety of civilians, then the Loyalists' slow, cautious approach is probably better than the Rebels' hasty, risky one.
• At the time the story begins, the player has already sworn to uphold Shaper ways. She is a Shaper herself. And the Loyalists are definitely friendlier and less prone to randomly attacking her than the Rebels are. Meanwhile, the Rebels have killed people she loves. All else equal, shouldn't one be loyal to one's promises, one's nation, and one's friends?

[samurai56]

Hmmmmmm..... Reminds me of the current war..... We have the corrupt government, the crazy rebels, and the widespread feeling of nationalism/fanaticism........COINCIDENCE?

[b]

Loyalists; I don't even think it's debatable. The shapers have some problems, obviously, but all the problems with shapers are the same with rebels. They also kill creations (and humans and shapers) at least as much (and probably more) than shapers. They also seem to be moving in the direction of subjecting serviles to drakon rule.

 

Plus: In G1, the takers (and Trajkov + Sholai) were pretty idealistic. They wanted freedom, plain and simple; they realized violence would be needed.

 

In G2, the takers and drakons wanted freedom, but also power for the drakons plus lots of killing of shapers: a sort of end justifies the means mentality.

 

Now, in G3, it has moved beyond that to a sort of rhetoric justifies the end and means mentality: meaning that as long as people like Litalia continue to talk about freedom, they can do whatever they want (which means gain lots of power without any thought for ethics and kill everyone while pretty much ignoring the whole idea of freedom for serviles). Serviles, meanwhile have been forgotten and manipulated by a movement that started to help them but now is only an insane power grab by drakons and rebel shapers.

 

Edit: and Samurai: really, when you examine the real world and this war, there are almost no similarities at all (and I'm not saying that because of shaping, magic, etc.: they just aren't at all comprable.)

[Suspicious Vlish]

I feel that the Loyalist Shapers have the moral high ground, for many reasons.

 

1. The Shapers have brought life to countless places. Their main work basically includes making new colonies which are pleasant to live in. They try to turn deserts into paradise.

 

2. Yes, the Shapers are very restricting, but now we see why such a policy is necessary. Human mages complain about the restriction on magick, yet we see the results of not restricting that power in GF 2 and GF 3.

 

3. The Shapers may have a bad attitude towards Creations, but it IS improving. In Geneforge 1, you visit an Arena. It mentions that once creations used to fight in the Arena, but it was banned due to being 'inhumane'.

 

4. In Geneforge 3, the entire aim of the Loyalists is to kill rogues. In fact, a true shaper will eliminate rogues, not matter what.

 

However, the Rebels have no qualms against placing rogues where ever they want, even if the rogues kill indiscriminately.

 

5. It is quite clear that the Rebel leaders have no noble intentions. They are merely power mad.

 

The Shaper Council are dictators, perhaps, but the leader Drakkons are warlords. What is the difference? The Shaper Council seems to at least be partially concerned about the civilizations they control. The Drakkons only care about personal power.

[Hectonkhyres]

The shaper council seem to live practically forever. My question is: who died to allow such policy change and why?

[lowbaca]

in geneforge 2, the rebels had the high ground. well, the awakened did. they weren't power hungry like the other ones. they just wanted peace. and the shapers were cruelto the serviles.

 

however, in the third one, i didn't even see a servile. the rebels just wanted power and made excuses.

[Suspicious Vlish]

Quote:

however, in the third one, i didn't even see a servile. the rebels just wanted power and made excuses.

That statement is 100% true for the Drakkons, who only wanted power and revenge. Congrats to the guy who mentioned 'Animal Farm', since the Drakkons definitely remind me of Napoleon. In fact, the slow migration from creation rights in GF 1, to the abuse of creations to fight the 'enemy' in GF 2, reminded me of the slow migration to facism/tyranny in Animal Farm.

However, I think that Lilita and Master Hoge did want justice and equality for serviles. The canisters merely made them more dispassionate (like Phariton in GF 2). It would have taken a lot of strength, courage and determination to turn your back on an ancient establishment which could kill you for your treachery. And will they TRULY be rewarded for it? To the GF veterans here, remember the Taker ending for GF 2. People like Lilita and Master Hoge may be respected and even accepted by the Creations they fight for, but deep down, they are still Shapers. The Creations will always remember that.

Although people are bound to disagree, I think that Master Hoge, and especially Lilita, are not really responsible for their actions. Those canisters are like drugs which strip away their humanity... how were they meant to know that until it was too late?

Hmmmm... the Drakkons addicted Lilita and Master Hoge to the canisters, so that they could have them in the palm of their hands. Clever. By the time Hoge and Lilita had their doubts about the power mad Drakkons, it was too late to walk away. Loyalists don't give canisters.

This is why I hate playing as the Rebels. The Drakkons are not only more evil in my opinion, but also more manipulative.