What would it be like without the Base-stat boosting traits?

[GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman]

Time and again people have mentioned that the base-stat traits are close to the best traits.
On my second playthrough I invested solely in them and could really feel the advantage my human characters had over then non-humans.

Many of the other traits fall to waste providing only a small fraction of what a base-stat point does.

 

When starting the Avernum 2 over and over testing out stuff for my Giant mod, I started to long for a playthrough where I use different traits. Next time I do a legit non-testing playthrough of these games I'm going to try a run without using any Base-stat boosting traits. I imagine this will increase difficulty too. (I find torment mode to be a bit of a slog so this might be a nice in-between).

Although a few traits have already been indirectly buffed by my mod, ("strong back" went from pointless to necessary due to Armour weight changes; And "Summoning focus", builds are also a thing now).

Has anyone already tried a run without taking these traits, does it change your build at all or is it just a slight handicap?

Edited May 3, 2019 by GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman
correction

[Slawbug]

I don't think "the best most cost-effective traits" is an accurate statement.  Most of the base stat traits are good, at least for certain character types, but there are a number of traits that are better than basically any of the base stat traits.

[Randomizer]

The major consideration is do you have enough of the main stat so you can hit the enemy with your main attack.

 

The first time I played Exile 3, I didn't understand the importance of certain stats and mostly increased strength for all of them to carry items. Intelligence for spell casters wasn't raised. It still worked out okay.

[GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman]

 

18 hours ago, Randomizer said:

The major consideration is do you have enough of the main stat so you can hit the enemy with your main attack.

 

The first time I played Exile 3, I didn't understand the importance of certain stats and mostly increased strength for all of them to carry items. Intelligence for spell casters wasn't raised. It still worked out okay.

As I've come to realize very recently. In the exile games your PC's level effects your stats and damage output at least as much as your skill point allocation.
This is why my archers always managed to do fine despite me not giving them any points in strength back in the day. (although missile attacks do get a damage boost from dex as well from what I hear).

In the avernum games your stat allocation has a much stronger effect.

 

19 hours ago, Fate's Bulwark Against Fate said:

I don't think "the best most cost-effective traits" is an accurate statement.  Most of the base stat traits are good, at least for certain character types, but there are a number of traits that are better than basically any of the base stat traits.

Your right, I shouldn't have said that. I was thinking back to some debates between specific traits, ignoring the must get ones.
My main point was that you usually get a lot of base stat traits and ignore a large amount of the list including 3% damage boosts which pale in comparison most of the time.
Also being able to invest in the same trait 5 times is a bit excessive.

Edited May 3, 2019 by GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman
correction

[Slawbug]

7 hours ago, GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman said:

As I've come to realize very recently. In the exile games your PC's level effects your stats and damage output at least as much as your skill point allocation.
This is why my archers always managed to do fine despite me not giving them any points in strength back in the day. (although missile attacks do get a damage boost from dex as well from what I hear).

This is mostly incorrect.  Level did affect some things directly in Exile, like spell damage, but it did not affect damage or hit rate for weapon attacks.  At all.

 

I don't remember off the top of my head if Strength improved damage for missile attacks, or if Dexterity did, but I don't think it was both of them.  Dex did improve hit rate for everything, but quite conservatively -- the increase maxes out at +20% from natural Dex -- and the bulk of hit rate increases come from your skill with a specific weapon type.  The real value of early Strength was in how many extra HP it gave you.

 

Exile's game balance, unfortunately, was pretty unkind to archers in general.  Missiles simply aren't very good compared to either melee or spells in Exile.

[GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman]

My bad, I read the damage formulas recently and miss-read "AdventurerBlessLevel" as "AdventurerLevel".

Source: http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/11501-formulas-for-damage-and-such/?tab=comments#comment-131366

Sadly I can't find the missile damage formula.

EDIT: Looking at the code in BoE it looks like the formula for missile damage is completely different than melee. It is also far shorter and does not seem to account for several important things.

 

dam = adven[current_pc].items[ammo_inv_slot].item_level;

dam_bonus = adven[current_pc].items[ammo_inv_slot].bonus + minmax(-8,8,(int)adven[current_pc].status[STATUS_BLESS_CURSE]);

r2 = get_ran(1,1,dam) + dam_bonus;

spec_dam = calc_spec_dam(adven[current_pc].items[ammo_inv_slot].ability, adven[current_pc].items[ammo_inv_slot].ability_strength,cur_monst);

 

As far as I can tell missiles don't scale at all, they also don't seem to factor the bow your using which can't be true... Also they don't seem to factor for the monsters bless/curse level, only the PC's. I'm probably missing some subroutine here, I have to be.

In my limited Exile experience I found missile damage to be quite high considering that you can fire 2 per turn without haste. And the fact that they scale from Str and Dex seems good, (I don't know the rate of the scaling though so it might be bad). I remember back in the day I relied heavily on my archer to snipe enemy mages. My mage could never match the archers single target damage... though I don't remember unlocking the kill spell so that might be a factor... I really need to replay Exile games outside of Blades of Exile so I can become familiar with the late game spells. Time to borrow my grandma's computer. She wont mind, she plays solitaire on her phone now anyway.

Edited May 3, 2019 by GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman
update

[Slawbug]

I really, really don't think they scale (damagewise) from both Str and Dex.  The fact that you cannot find the formula does not make that a thing.

 

If your mage could never match your archer's damage, that speaks to spell selection or magic stats (Int) maybe -- spells simply have a much higher damage potential.  Kill maxes out at 90-120 damage if the saving throw is failed.  Firestorm maxes out at 14-84, Divine Thud at 18-108, Death Arrows at 40-70.  Blade Wall does 6-48 physical damage on casting and again once per turn (or per square moved through)...

[GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman]

I'm going off childhood memories here, So your probably right. But I want to think that the bow you have equipped should factor somewhere so I feel like I'm missing something. (Edit: the bow effects accuracy check).
All of the checks in the fire_missile only refer to [ammo_inv_slot]. I wonder what formula the sling uses?

EDIT: It seems that the sling counts as BOTH the bow AND the missiles. It's damage bonus is also its chance-to-hit bonus.

Edited May 3, 2019 by GiantFriendlyTalkingSpiderman
Update