Geneforge 3: Broken vlish and...

[Brocktree]

Another member on this forum has perked my interest in Geneforge 3. Geneforge 3 is my least played game in the Geneforge series (although I actually dislike Geneforge 4 far more), so I'm a little rusty. After reading Slarty's thread on broken vlish, I'm doing a run through. Yes, the vlish are indeed broken. However, I've discovered that a second creation is also hideously broken, yet gets next to no recognition.

 

The rotgroths in Geneforge 3 outclass the other 4th tier creations so bad, it's ludicrous. I never realised up until now that they had a slow attack, but this pretty much means that anything they hit is going to miss every second turn (at best). Of course, vlish can do this as well, and for only a fraction of the essence. However, rotgroths inflict acid damage (rarely resisted), and lots of it. Better yet, they have tonnes of health, and high acid and physical resistance. Since you can get them early on Gull island, you have some time to level them up before the endgame.

 

So instead of absorbing your vlish and replacing them with gazers, replace them with a rottie or two instead. Rotties and vlish complement each other perfectly. If you face a magic damaging opponent, have them focus on your vlish, then beat the tar out of them with your rotgroths. If you face a physical damaging opponent, have them focus on your rotgroths, and have your vlish hang back and pelt them with bolts.

[Wizard Orcasus]

You know I never really cared about that but I might try it thx.

[Cmiller]

I haven't played G3 that much (only half way through). But I do believe that Vlish are almost as equally as powerful as the 4th teir creations, if not more powerful. There is an old disscusion about how powerful vlish are. You can find it in one of the Strategy centrals.

 

My opinion on Rotts: Awesome creations, second in line to the War Tralls. they can take a hefty beating and still fight pretty darn good. I'd watch out for their poison if ever confront one . But if only their appearance were better, i'd might have some more to say about them Lol.

 

You know I never really cared about that but I might try it thx.

 

People would be more willing to listen to you if you'd leave the Irony out of your sentences. If you don't care about it, why would you want to try it. I'm quite confused?

 

Edit: I wish you good luck on your Run through BlockTree

[Brocktree]

There's no way that vlish are more powerful than the fourth tier creations in Geneforge 3. No way. Slarty went a little overboard there. However, they are by far the *best value for essence*. Twenty essence for the ability to slow an enemy (and therefore reduce it's damage by at least half) is outstanding.

 

However, Rothgroths have oodles of health and a hard hitting acid attack in addition to their slow effect. If I could afford it, I'd rather have 7 rothgroths instead of 7 vlish. However, you can't obtain that much essence in game, so you need to compromise.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

One thing that goes for the Vlish is that they are a missile creation, so at times they may offer more strategic options.

[Cmiller]

Well, you could have a ton of Vlish with maybe 2 or 3 Rotts. Then you have the missile and melee advantage.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Well, you could have a ton of Vlish with maybe 2 or 3 Rotts. Then you have the missile and melee advantage.

Vlishes are basically balloons, you can't have a ton of them, even if you made like 20.

But yeah I mostly agree, 3 rotties is probably overkil, but I'd be happy with one or two on my next playthrough.

[Brocktree]

I realise that I misrepresented what Slarty said in his broken vlish thread. He stated that vlish are superior to Tier 3 creations (which they are), not Tier 4 creations. My bad.

 

Anyway, I restarted as an agent and shaped 7 vlish early on. Even though I got them as early as possible (skipping most of the fighting on Greenwood Isle and shooting straight for Diwanya), they have trouble hitting high level enemies on Gull Island. I traded in four vlish for a Rothgroth, and have noticed a massive improvement. The bonus hitpoints and high physical resist you get from a Rotghroth really makes a massive difference.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Even though I got them as early as possible (skipping most of the fighting on Greenwood Isle and shooting straight for Diwanya), they have trouble hitting high level enemies on Gull Island.

Anyway, I restarted as an agent

[Trenton.]

Why not Rotdhizen? Same attacks only twice.

[Brocktree]

 

I had the same problem with the Vlish for a Shaper with 10 magic shaping. There is no real justification to be a Shaper. Agents can shape almost as well as a Shaper, but also allow you to gain a significant amount of mental magic. Daze is arguably more overpowered than Vlish (Daze autohits and almost always dazes, whereas terror and charm often miss if you don't pump spellcraft to about 15).

[Mosquito---Slayer]

I had the same problem with the Vlish for a Shaper with 10 magic shaping.

Humm, that's interesting, Slarty in his analysis never said anything about how often they hit so you might be right, what's there hitting chance against a general enemy?

Agents can shape almost as well as a Shaper.

No that is not true.

[Halt]

If Agents could shape just as well as Shapers, then Agents would be the most overpowered of the three you can play! Excellent with magic, Great with Melee/Missle, and Good a Shaping <--- Thats a good combo... but if you try to give an agent too many points in the Shaping section, you won't have enough for pretty much anything else...

[Brocktree]

Humm, that's interesting, Slarty in his analysis never said anything about how often they hit so you might be right, what's there hitting chance against a general enemy?

 

On Gull Island? 50%

 

No that is not true.

 

What advantages does a Shaper have that an Agent doesn't?

[Mosquito---Slayer]

There is no real justification to be a Shaper. Agents can shape almost as well as a Shaper, but also allow you to gain a significant amount of mental magic.

What advantages does a Shaper have that an Agent doesn't?

There is no real justification to be a Agent. Shapers can do magic almost as well as a Agent, but also allow you to gain significantly better creations without stretching their essence and energy.

(You yourself said that primarily you are concerned with daze, A shaper can easily put about 10 points in mental magic without stretching his skill points because that's his average skill, an agent aiming to match a shaper in shaping will be stretched out of skill points because shaping is her weak skill, Neither class really needs physical combat skills)

What that means is that a shaper's creations would be about +8 in level compared to an Agent, which means 4 extra damage die multiplied seven times and an extra 20% or so to hit, rough analysis would put equivalent damage to (assuming 1-5 dice and 20 % extra chance) about 110 points normally and ~ 230 points for a hasted blessed party not to mention the comparatively powerful ancillary effects and extra health meaning less turns wasted on healing(and the minor extra dodging chance).

[Dikiyoba]

Doesn't G3 give diminishing returns for points in the shaping skills, though, with no diminishing returns on spellcraft or the magic skills? That decreases the utility of the Shaper's cheap shaping skills.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Brocktree]

There is no real justification to be a Agent. Shapers can do magic almost as well as a Agent, but also allow you to gain significantly better creations without stretching their essence and energy.

 

If you plan to make only vlish (as recommended by Slarty, which is a great strategy up until Gull Island), then you will have enough essence to do this as an agent. Even Rothgroths are relatively inexpensive.

 

The advantage you gain from an investment in a shaping skill is minimal. Bumping up a Shaping skill to 10 will give your creations *five* in strength, dexterity, intelligence and endurance. This can be significant if you choose to tote around 7 creations (as you, and even I pointed out earlier!), but if you decide to have Tier Four creations, the advantage is less pronounced.

 

Dikiyoba also pointed out something else that I found really sucked as a Shaper. After hitting 10 in a Shaping skill, you need to invest 2 in that skill before you increase a creation's level by 1. That means that you need to invest *FOUR* in a Shaping skill before you gain *ONE* die of damage for your creations.

 

(You yourself said that primarily you are concerned with daze, A shaper can easily put about 10 points in mental magic without stretching his skill points because that's his average skill, an agent aiming to match a shaper in shaping will be stretched out of skill points because shaping is her weak skill, Neither class really needs physical combat skills)

 

In Geneforge 3, spellcraft is easily the best skill available. It increases the power of battle magic, mental magic, blessing magic, AND healing craft. It doesn't have diminishing returns. Items which add spellcraft aren't bugged (unlike items which add to creation strength, which *are*). Agents have spellcraft as a focus skill. That makes them the best character by far.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

If I make only Vlishes they will enjoy the advantage I already pointed out because you don't really hit 12 or so by the second island even with a shaper and the agents would be at a skill of 2-3 in magic shaping by then, maybe 4.

 

The higher level creations lack this advantage to some degree but keep in mind that a shaper can make 6-7 of them, an agent can't.

 

About spellcraft I will like to point out that a shaper only needs decent mental magic and blessing magic enough to haste his creations, healing craft is cheap and has lots of points available in game so spellcraft is not a very important skill for him, Spellcraft is really a super skill for the agents, it matters little for the other classes as they don't use the whole variety of magic types.

 

(Also for your mix and match strategy it's preferable to have good no. of points in both battle and magic shaping, an agent can't have that.)

 

Edit :- Oh, and when you pointed out about why shaping skills should be increased and I sorta disagreed, It was because I was speaking about G4 and G5, the difference between them and G3 is that G4 and 5 don't have any low level creature good enough to keep throughout the game, G3 has Vlishes, and as you yourself said a +4 to attack means little for high level creatures, it's better to just have more of them and keep them healed and blessed.