The Rogue Thread-Spiderweb Games

[Death Knight]

Ive thought on this for a while and while Im still not 100% sure on it, I have to ask. What does everyone think a rogue is regarding classes in spiderweb's games?

 

Ive played baldurs gate series with a thief class or subclass and it was pretty straightforward. Bards fit in there too.

 

But the games by spiderweb software has a different definition for "Rogue" that ive yet to see as the true definition. I will discuss each of the series in my opinion.

 

For Avernum, I guess A:Eftp will be my choice to discuss. Ive felt that avernum has always had rogues be archers for the most part, possibly with high tool use even though it was changed in the new game. I think that while fighters in avernum could be considered rogues, regardless of what build they are, it is still not a different way of playing unlike the other mentioned. I think that archers fit the rogue role for that series.

 

For Geneforge, this is even more subjective. I feel that geneforge's series definition of a rogue is a highly defensive/offensive weapon-user that deals a lot of damage with any weapon, be it swords or batons. This can be mostly seen as an melee agent in any of the geneforges with high daze. With daze, an agent can wipe out many without any aid at all. That and the fact that agents travel alone mostly, make the agent the rogue of these games.

 

For avadon, I have 2 choices. The 1st is a shadowwalker that uses shadowstep and high backstab to aid in assaults with other allies. The other choice is mostly in the same mindset of avernum in which ranged users with debuffs/high evasion and critical hits are the rogue.

 

The main reason it interests me is because rogue's definition fits each game different. Does anyone else have any other interpretations for what the rogue is in most of these games? I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.

[Randomizer]

Geneforge rogue is more the Agent that uses leadership and mechanics to avoid fighting. Sneaking past obstacles whenever possible. While able to fight the spells are more mental magic to daze and charm foes instead of battle magic.

[Death Knight]

That makes sense. I think when i first read up on jeff's 1st geneforge game, (the 1st spiderweb game i played), the faq that i read to describe the classes said that magic + combat arts= a rogue. Im not sure if you could call a guardian a rogue if they boost those general skills as they start with the highest mechanics and leadership in g4 and g5.

[ex post slarto]

The skill set that goes with the "rogue" class in traditional games is pretty clearly defined, and has deviated very little from the original thieves that showed up in D&D:

 

- light armor

- light melee weapons, most often daggers

- light ranged weapons, especially thrown knives/daggers or slings

- stealing

- lockpicking

- disarming traps

- backstabbing

- use of poison (and general trickery)

- hiding (in the shadows)

- moving silently (and often quickly)

- emphasis on dexterity (and sometimes luck)

 

In Avadon -- the only SW game with an actual, regimented class system -- the four classes are pretty obviously modeled on the standard fighter/thief/cleric/mage classes. The Shadowwalker meets all the criteria above, except for the ones that aren't in the game at all. This is pretty open and shut.

 

Geneforge technically has classes, but they do not have distinct abilities or equipment restrictions, and they don't correspond to the traditional archetypes at all. The Mechanics ability, and the use of stealth in general, are the only things that really correspond to a traditional rogue. Although the Agent/Infiltrator is the least bad fit for this, the fact that the Agent was also the heaviest mage class in G1-G4 would make "rogue" a fairly misleading description.

 

Exile had an "Other Skills" category that collected rogue skills. Nethergate and Avernum inherited this, but it gradually shifted so that it wasn't just traditional rogue skills. These games also had no classes whatsoever. (The default builds you could choose at the start of the game are not classes, as they have zero impact on the game's mechanics.) In any event, the skills and traits that correspond to a traditional rogue are again pretty obvious: Dexterity, Pick Locks, Disarm Traps, Tool Use, Assassination, Poison Use, Luck, Quick Action, Fast on Feet.

 

AEFTP dissociates things further; most of the relevant skills have been removed, and the remaining ones, Quick Action and Lethal Blow, do not fit well with a Dexterity focus. There is the Backstabber trait and the Tool Use trait, at least.