D&D and Avernum/Exile Series

[Taetra]

I know I"m new here, but I've loved this game for just about a decade now. I love it, in fact, I love it so much that I want to create a DnD campaign of it. I was wodnering if there were any resources available to help do so, other than playing through the game to grab all the maps, NPCS, and other information.

 

Also, if there are any really interested, I would be willing to post the work that is done.

[Randomizer]

There are links in the Avernum Trilogies and Exile to maps from the older versions of the games. Walkthroughs will describe areas and NPCs.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. It will help you to find it after your project.

[Taetra]

I guess the questions I would like discussed are this:

 

1. Would it work well enough to almost copy/paste most of everything, then allow the DM to work out the rest of it? An example of this would be to use introduction text/dialogue for the NPC's, then have the DM interact in a similar fashion to the adventurers.

 

2. I've been working on material bonuses to add flavor. Stone, Bronze, Iron, Steel, Blessed (metals) and on and on. The first rendition was very hard to balance, but it was fun. What I want to know here, is what others think of this in 3.5 and if you can contribute, that would be welcome.

 

3. I have a problem with... well, bluntly, lazy characters. And Avernum/Exile is not a place at all for that. What would be some good pulls to use in this setting?

[Taetra]

@Randomizer I mostly post it here because this is the rendition of the game that I can play. I own the old Exile 1 and 2, but due to having a 64 bit system I can't play those. Also, after playign through this, it seems to have alot more "pull" in the beginning that would be required to run my players through.

[Randomizer]

The Exile version was very open ended with just signs mentioning that the Castle needed adventurers. You had to figure out on your own to go to Formello and help the Mayor with the necklace from hints that NPCs dropped about the theft.

 

The first Avernum version was the same way with the addition that you could drop off characters and add a few NPCs with some skills. Still player death was the only limit to direct where you should go.

 

This remake hammers the point home about what you should do next with quests that point you in the right direction. The best pull is the party is broke and needs to do quests if it wants money to buy all the shiny toys and get training. Reputation acts as a limit to keep some things away from the party until they are ready.

 

Years ago someone did a D20 Avernum, but the link no longer works. Google might help you to find others that have done something similar.

[Taetra]

I did find that d20 avernum text file. It was what inspired me to pick it up, and it did have a few good ideas. But.... I can't really seem to find much else, other than roleplays on forums in the setting.

[Alorael at Large]

There have been various attempts to make d20 Avernum. None that got very far, as far as I know.

 

My suggestions? Don't be overambitious. Don't remake the rules, rewrite classes, overhaul the spells and treasures. If you want to keep the Exile feeling, you want less magic and more desperate poverty and poor quality equipment, which isn't really how D&D works, with level-gear equivalence tables and all that.

 

—Alorael, who has no great suggestions for information arranged in a tabletop-friendly fashion. For everything else, though, check out the Avernum Annotated Maps.

[Taetra]

Oh no, I had no plan on doing a complete remake; i just want the setting, the difficulty, the struggle.

 

As for poverty and poor quality equipment... I can't quite seem to be able to nail that down. What I did do, to nail down the less magic part, was to double costs of magical improvement and enhancement of equipment. We managed to hit level 8 while only having +2's at maximum. In turn for lower magical bonuses, I instead tried a prototype material bonuses;

 

Stone - -1 to hit, -1 to damage

Bronze - Normal

Iron - +1 to damage, 1dr on armors

Steel - +3 to damage, 2 dr on armors (a bit too much I noticed)

 

And so on. Players did like that... I, as the DM, found it hard to balance it out, and putting that sort of equipment on enemies allowed the party to pick it up easily... if they lived. (I should force people to repair it, now that I think about it...)

 

Are there any ways to economize exile better? Or lower riches to accomodate a poverty-stricken region? Money is one thing I felt got out of hand, but that may have been my fault as a DM.

[Randomizer]

One DM I played with, may he be trapped several planes below Avernum, taxed the players on their gains. This created lots of paperwork and selling of items we would have normally kept to pay the taxes.

 

Another DM, back in first edition to discourage dragon hunting, made treasures be mostly copper pieces and then started enforcing encumbrances.

[Taetra]

Okay, that's just being... lmao. I love the ideas, but I'd rather not do moves like that... I want struggle, not riotous anger. lol.

 

What would be a good way to alter prices for equipment? I know I need to set a baseline higher than normal as it is, since equipment is harder to make, but I was wondering if I should do it per pound of weight, or have a multiplier on the base cost for material used?

[Randomizer]

Base cost of material makes more sense since except for armor and shields most equipment doesn't have the weight.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Taetra

In turn for lower magical bonuses, I instead tried a prototype material bonuses;

You might want to look at Dark Sun, either the 2nd or 4th edition D&D versions, for inspiration on this point. It's a desert-based sword-and-sorcery campaign setting where metal and magical items are both vanishingly rare, even for adventurers. The 4th edition Dark Sun rules also suggest using a system of inherent bonuses to replace the benefits you'd otherwise get from magical weapons and armour.

[Alorael at Large]

What edition D&D are you working with? If you're in 3rd, you could check out a number of "gritty" d20 supplements that ditch magic and magic items. Iron Heroes, which goes for heroics without magic, gets my vote, although it doesn't necessarily play well with mages in the party.

 

If your players are on board with lacking equipment, you can run with that. If they're grumbling about lack of treasure, there's a relatively easy solution: recalibrate. Stone is -1, bronze is normal, iron and steel are +1. (Steer clear of DR; it'll step on barbarian toes and probably be overpowered.) And eventually, when they really want magic, you can feed them exciting stuff, slowly, so it's special.

 

—Alorael, who really thinks the easiest trick here is to give out equipment as necessary. Even ask your players what they'd buy, if they could, and plant the stuff on monsters or in hoards eventually. But keep them poor. They may have that +2 flaming sword eventually, but unless they're going to pawn it it still won't pay to mend their tunics or get them meals at the inn. And play up the needs for money! Tell them their equipment is dinged up and will start giving them penalties if they don't pay for repairs, especially if it's low-quality metal. Have stuff break. The mechanics are less important than the feeling.

[Taetra]

It seems I've some reading to do! I appreciate the suggestions!

 

Repairs are something I've never done before, but due to the wet and nasty of exile I'm definitely going to bring them in. Rust, blood, moss, and rock can't possibly be great on equipment, and it's a great way to drain some money.

 

Perhaps I'll leave the DR to the much higher materials, and instead opt for AC bonuses.

 

Also, before I forget, I've been running 3.5. I've been looking into pathfinder as it interests me in many ways, and clears up some confusions. But it's 3.5 that I know how to run, and know the most about.

 

A couple of things I"ve been thinking about. While I want to limit amount of magical items in the game, taking a look at the magic item compendium has brought up a desire to randomly generate from there, but limit the buy list to DMG only.

 

Also, the augment crystals in there intrigue me so much, and the tie-in with the Vahnatai would be oh so precious.

[Varil]

Isn't part of the Avernum lore that they simply don't have the materials or expertise to craft magical items? That's why shops almost never sell magic items(special items, yes, but most don't have that sparkle that indicates magic).

 

Maybe adjust this a little, and just say they lack any magical capabilities above, say +3ish items? Or maybe a strict cost limit would be better. The Mage's Tower or Castle might be able to make magic items up to 10000-15000 gp in cost, for instance, but past that they lack the tools/materials/skills needed. Someone like Erika might be capable of more, but getting one of those high-end mages to stop and craft for you is probably going to be an expense all to itself.

 

Maybe instead of different stats for different materials, instead assign durability ratings which change in use, and lower stats as the durability is reduced? Only in drastic situations, though, so you're not making tic marks every round of combat. Something like stone might have a durability of around 5, while steel might have as high as 20.

 

For weapons, they might lose a point of durability every time the wielder rolls a "1", but armor might lose a point of durability any time the enemy makes a critical hit(or maybe even threatens a critical). Reduce stats every 20% or so(so stone loses stats every time something goes wrong, but steel requires a sequence of problems to start going down).

 

Damaged equipment should lose a lot of its value, and making repairs should require time in a proper forge or workshop. So players are either forced to sell damaged equipment on the cheap, or pay for workshop time so they can repair it themselves(probably not worth it except for exceptional items). And if players are also forced to repair their gear(maybe 10% of the purchase cost per 20% of damage? So a broken weapon can be repaired at half cost, but a dinged one is relatively cheap).

 

Of course, enemy gear should come pre-damaged(to save time, you might want to just set enemy gear to a certain pre-damaged level then ignore it in battle, so you don't have to track two-dozen pieces of gear for wear and tear mid-combat).

 

Consider changing some magical enchantments to simple physical improvements to the weapons. +1 damage? That's not magic, just good forge work! Keen? It's just really sharp! "Magic" weapons without magic. Of course, they should be expensive. A little moreso than they might be as enchantments, since they won't count as enchantments. But if you strictly limit what sort of enchanting players can do, you might consider making such weapons a bit cheaper instead, as a way to soften the blow of a low-magic environment.

 

You might consider banning certain high-magic classes. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, favored souls, archivists and basically every variation on the psion class(if they were on the table in the first place) will pretty all single-handedly murder the impact of a low magic environment, with spells like Magic Vestment and other handy replacements for magical gear. I'm not saying "no magic", but consider using the more specialized casters(Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Warmage, and Healer are all far more niche than most D&D casters, but cover various specializations you might expect of spell casters) instead, as their more narrow focus leaves less room for players to usurp your expectations of the setting.

 

At the very least, you might want to carefully comb spell lists for long-range teleportation magic and flight, since travel is one of the things that seems like it should never be trivialized in Avernum.

[Alorael at Large]

I'd be careful on the other hand of making too many changes and houserules and extra moving parts to keep track of. Doing it for flavor is good and just to pull money out of the system is good. More stuff on paper is not always so good.

 

Also, keep in mind that Avernum isn't a low-magic setting. There are mages and priests in pretty much every town. Nobody is surprised by them, or afraid of them, and in fact daily life relies on the fruits of their labors. And from the game mechanics, everyone relies on their buffing. Instead, Avernum has relatively little creation of potent magic items. Not none, just not a lot, but keep in mind that scrolls and wands and potions abound, the ToM creates its share of stuff, and there are artifacts from the vahnatai and the sliths and the First Expedition scattered around the caves.

 

Instead, the bigger problem is feeling: iron is rare, and steel is rarer. Remember that to enchant something, it has to be masterwork to start with. That in itself is a bottleneck, not necessarily of cost but of location, because there just aren't that many expert smiths with good forges.

 

—Alorael, who could even see the resource scarcity feeling being maintained just by dividing money, and the cost of everything, by ten. Have most looted gear be nearly worthless trash unless there's reason for it to be better. It's fine for the party to have plenty of good equipment if they're the top-tier, big-dog adventurers everyone turns to for help. Just make sure they're keenly aware of how unusual their well-equipped state is, and have everyone else eye them with respect and occasional predatory avarice.

[Taetra]

I agree with Alorael here; there is the presence of magic users, and there's alot of them. They just lack resources and equipment and such to properly enchant. that's why I"ve imposed the double cost for magical items, and have considered limiting how high they can go. With the double cost in effect, I can say it has easily dissuaded any rich adventurer from turning in that cash for an extra ac or keen sword. It didn't stop them completely, but it made them search for different paths.

 

My problem was that I handed out gold far too much. I realize now that everything SHOULD be shoddy, and need repairs and such.

 

Going along with that, and after reading how crafting works, raising prices on equipment will also create a massive increase on how long it will take to make, especially if i include the fact that most likely everywhere but Draco, Blosk, and the Castle will have shoddy tools. I like that; it will force the players to take on crafts and such, to save on money.

 

Lowering the amount of money acquired, while also imposing much much higher prices and the costs of repair will induce exactly what i'm looking for in the economic standpoint. It probably won't make my characters happy, but that's the point, isn't it?

 

Also, I'm lucky in the fact that I haven't had people play many casters with item creation feats. It could potentially ruin it if the person is particularly ambitious, but I suppose the material components could be made to be extremely rare, making the creation of a magical item a quest in itself.

 

Should I include the inherent forging bonuses on top of material bonuses, as Varil suggested? I like the sound of it, I'm just worried about keeping such a thing balanced, as I had trouble with materials as it was.

 

Would anyone be interested in viewing the material bonuses table, and cost modification tables that I have made up?

[Alorael at Large]

Sure, go ahead and post them.

 

Also, not making your characters happy is fine, but do keep your players happy. The game is probably more for them than for you, by a number of players to one ratio.

 

—Alorael, who would expect and encourage item creation feats. If the players want magic items enough to make those items themselves, they're investing in those items, and they've earned them. (3rd edition item creation doesn't balance right or work well, but that's another issue.)

[Varil]

Hm, I was thinking about this some more, and it occurred to me : what about completely disallowing magical crafting(those mages who ARE doing crafting are either selling directly to Avernum's military, or are doing so in a general "help Avernum" way, such as making those magic mushrooms), and instead use magic items as a way to point players where you want them to go? Miniadventures, even.

 

So if Fighter A says "I'd like to try and find an Amulet of Health", have the players roll some gather information, maybe roleplay asking around town, and then have someone mention "I heard a soldier up in Mortrax's lair had one. Not much fighting up there, he might be willing to sell it if you're willing to make the trip." It'd be a good way to direct the players to different areas without having to lead them by the nose, in case they don't want to follow the quest-rails Avernum's plot lays out.

 

Of course, you could make this more fantastic as they look for more and more powerful loot. "An ioun stone? I heard a fellow who went west past Fort Remote had one, but hasn't been heard from since...". "A powerful suit of armor? A guy who was banished to the abyss had some, but I heard he escaped before he got there...". "A Blessed Book? I think Erika had one, but she's far, far away..." "A mighty weapon? Reminds of the story of Demonslayer..."

[Taetra]

Stone -1 to hit, -1 to damage, 50% chance to damage 1, 5hp

 

Bronze -1 to hit, 45% chance to damage 1, 8hp

 

Iron No bonuses or minuses, 40% chance to damage 1, 10hp

 

Steel +1 to hit, +1 to damage, +1 to AC, 30% chance to damage 1, 15hp

 

Mithril +2 to hit, +1 to AC, half weight, 30% chance to damage 1, 15hp

 

Orichalcum +1 to hit, +1 to damage, Augment Critical 1, +1 to AC, 1DR/Adamantite, 25% chance to damage 1, 20hp

 

Adamantite +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +2 to AC, 2DR/Adamantite, 10% chance to damage 1, 25hp

 

 

It's a very rough table, just thought up after doing alot of thinking on how I want to do durability, and decided to go with chance/hp total instead of the PHB hardness/hp per inch thickness. Like I said, this is just a rough thought up table, and has not been tested in the least, so the percentages may be too high.

 

Any feedback is appreciated, especially if it mentions future possibilities and problems.

[Taetra]

Also, I need some help with costs on equipment and it's materials. Anyone here used the Craft skill plenty when it comes to arms and armor? I know how it works, but I don't want times and crafting to get too out of hand. I want struggle, not frustration.

[Alorael at Large]

Adding another roll every time someone swings a sword to see if they damage it is a recipe for immense frustration. I'd avoid it. Maybe roll once at the end of a battle, and give simple penalties (-1 to hit and the like) until equipment is repaired.

 

Keep in mind that D&D is balanced on the assumption of normal gear, masterwork fairly quickly, and magic fairly quickly after that. You'll have to do some balancing work to keep things on an even keel, and more to keep casters' powers in check if all physical fights are hampered by shoddy equipment.

 

Steel here is equivalent to masterwork, and mithral and adamantine already exist with costs and stats. Go with that. I'm not sure what orichalcum is for, here, except that for an increased critical range players will insist on using it, and using everything else that stacks with it. Actually, only mithral really has any presence in the series, and it only seems to show up on the surface.

 

—Alorael, who can't really help with the craft system. Increasing abilities and static DCs means you need to calibrate it to the levels at which you want this to be a concern for the PCs, and how much of a concern you want it to be.

[Taetra]

These bonuses all comprise a new genre; material. It stacks with everything. So a masterwork steel longsword would deal 1d8 +1 damage, with an additional 2 to hit (1 from masterwork, 1 from material). While horridly unbalanced in the first try, my players enjoyed the addition. I, too, like the material genre, especially in a low magic setting. Hence Orichalcum, and soon to be other materials; they will add variety, and trust me, that augment critical comes at a horridly high price.

 

As for the durability rolls, I have no problem with that, but after reviewing through item hardness and hitpoints, normal wear and tear really doesn't look all that hard to manage! If, say, someone were using a stone longsword (8 hardness, 15hp/inch), were to hit for 9 damage on someone, it would wear it down 1 hp. I think I will double the hps though, and have halfway be the "breaking down" part where it suffers penalties, and 0 be the fully broken threshold. Then again, that leads to critical hits being very, very bad for the user, too... perhaps, just take normal damage on the weapon for that? Normal damage being before crit multiplier.

 

I've never had much experience DM'ing with casters. Do you ahve anything to suggest for limiting their power, besides tinkering with lack of proper material components?

[Alorael at Large]

That's not a new genre, really. Except for stacking with masterwork, that's how materials have always worked in 3E and its derivatives. I'd trust the existing rules more than homebrew, and at the least keep in mind as guidelines. It's also pretty easy to re-flavor a fair amount of magic as workmanship. That also gives a good guide of how much steel should cost: about +1. A little more, since magic doesn't stack with masterwork, and it looks like steel does. Just be very careful not to accidentally make super-weapons through materials.

 

The problem with wear and tear isn't that it's a bad system; I haven't even looked at that. It just looks like a headache to have to roll and record an additional aspect every time. Combat tends to drag out with the regular number of rolls. But if you want to do it, go ahead.

 

The people I've played with, including me, get annoyed if you start making their classes not work right. I'd leave them alone to start and try to fix problems as they arise. Just remember, casters are known for being more powerful in general. Making durability rules an extra liability for fighters exacerbates that; making weapons more powerful just turns up the power knob.

 

—Alorael, who could suggest a number of alternate caster classes from alternate sources, but then you'd have to go get those books, too, and make them play nicely with Pathfinder. If you want to go a similar route, make mages pay more for, and work harder to find, even simple spell components that are rare in caves. And then come up with some excuse to do something similar for clerics and druids.