Hawat

I think it's pretty close to a consensus that mental magic + war tralls is a good approach in G5. Mental magic is the closest thing to a G5 "don't get hit" method due to its crowd control capabilities. War tralls are powerful, versatile and cheaper than they ought to be. I just don't think it's the only valid option. Personally what I love in G5 is seeing how powerful I can make my creations. Every equipment decision, skill point expenditure, even what faction I join, is dictated by increasing the power of my creations. So I end up with an incredibly weak player character with no personal damage or crowd control ability protected by monstrous creations soaking up hits and dealing massive damage. I don't claim it's the optimal approach, but it works and is fun. Going all-out for powerful creations (+4 character attribute gloves instead of +5 magic skill, crafting the +4 shaping skill belt and pushing shaping skill to it's end level asap to give creations longer to level up, wearing the projection belt and transference suit, etc) you can push out enough damage that enemies drop before getting too many hits in, which is a form of defense also I suppose. It's particularly useful against enemies that cast acid, poison or lightning - never give them the chance. I agree that G5 is unusually well balanced, and with Brocktree that fire creations are equal to or better than battle creations if you rush for ur-drakons, otherwise battle creations are preferable.

SPOILERS "The last area of the game", Inner Gazaki-Uss, contains the canister, but the combat choke point for getting there (Alwan faction) is actually Control Core B, which can be beaten on torment not too far past level 30. Nearly every other quest to get to the canister can be stealthed, and you've got help in the entrance to gazaki-uss and gazaki-uss which can carry you to inner gazki-uss. Slip in, take a glance at the end boss, use the canister, go back out. You've got a lot of game left to have fun with your new ur-drakons. Drayks are for damage, not tanking. Fortunately it's not too hard to keep most incoming attacks focused on a designated tank (either your drakon or kyshaak, depending on whether the enemy is doing energy damage or not). Realistically, it's tough to have enough essence for 7 war tralls early - that's 1,001 essence assuming you want control of them. A couple of designated tanks (drakon and kyshaak) and a bunch of drayks will tend to be more powerful than an equivalent essence cost rot/trall force. I think perhaps the perception that battle creations>fire creations is partly due to people not knowing/caring that you can get ur-drakons and not end the game five minutes later. Ur-Drakons are really, really good. They have great resistances and do sick damage, and leave lightning aura. Mosquito, have you actually tried them?

I think perhaps those observations are more true if you've invested in more than one shaping branch. The fire creations work extremely well together. A Kyshaak, all things being equal, just isn't as good as a War Trall for the same essence cost. But within an all-fire creation play-through, the kyshaak fills a needed role. It resists and deals energy damage, and applies lightning. There are fights that would be very, very tough for fire creation only characters without kyshaaks (or ur-drakons, but they do come a bit later). Drakons make outstanding all-around tanks, even if for their essence cost their damage isn't inspiring. Their ability to act as a damage sponge is valuable because, as you you mention, drayks can only take a couple decent hits. Cyrodrayks are usually a bit underwhelming (greater essence cost and less damage than drayks), but there are times when either the cold damage or cold resistance are useful. By the time the relative fragility of drayks becomes an issue, you can have ur-drakons which are superb tanks (and your drayks will be around lvl 50 and not all that fragile). Focusing on one shaping branch, you can raise the shaping skill to 10 or so and have that skill point investment improve all seven of your creations. Roamers are kinda awful, but it's not that hard to either use cryoas through the stoneworks or stealth through to the kyshaak canister in the secret lab (that one does take a bit of patience but is quite doable). Higher creation levels also help with accuracy issues. Compared to for instance magic shaping, vlish and gazers are awesome but every other creation is underwhelming, and the set of creations doesn't synergize well together. Not much in the way of mixed damage types or resistances. Battle creations are good, but offer no elemental damage at all and nothing than can tank energy damage. Fire creations to me seem more of a harmonious, stand alone group (which might be why the skill is more expensive - the one big downside of the fire branch). I do wonder whether a gazer might not be a better bet than a kyshaak though, even for a character with level ten skill in fire shaping and one + six from items in magic shaping. I'd think the much higher level, lower essence kyshaak is probably the correct call, but it's tricky. Edit: Didn't notice your paragraph on fire creations versus war tralls before posting. That's certainly a valid point, but in my vastly more limited experience (for anyone reading, trust anything Lilith says over anything I say) drayks are more essence efficient than war tralls mid-game (two drayks cost one less essence than one war trall and do way more damage) and ur-drakons are more powerful than war tralls mid-late game. A few opponents heavily resist physical damage also, which would seem to present issues for a battle-creation only user.

Basically, damage. One tank creation and lots of damage dealing creations. For instance, in the current playthrough, I've got one drakon, two cryodrayks and 4 drayks. Buffed, they do around 1,500-1,600 damage/turn. The drakon tanks stuff, the player character heals the drakon, the drayks melt the monsters. Also, clear out the rots, patchworks and war tralls before dueling the synthesis mind. I've also done it (again with no mental magic and torment difficulty), at a bit higher character level, with one gazer, 5 vlish and a plated artilla (this was an experiment with really high levels of magic shaping, so they were all higher level than is normal). It worked, but it was a bit tricky due to the lower aggregate damage output and limited range of damage types. It's much easier with drayks. A bit off the topic, but I think fire creations get a bad rap. They're a powerful, versatile group, and drayks and ur-drakons are just awesome (and you can get ur-drakons with a whole lot of game left if you simply rush to endgame then back out of inner gazaki-uss after using the necessary canister). Even without ur-drakons, for most of the mid-late game, a party two kayshaaks, one drakon, two drayks and two cryodrayks smoothly handles anything you throw it at, even without mental magic. You have both damage in and resistance to cold, fire, energy, and physical, good total damage output, lightning status, and most of the damage is ranged, which is tactically useful. Named gazers are a pain, but I'm pretty sure they are just always a pain, and the kyshaaks tank well enough to do the job.

I'm in.

It's a bit surprising you had such trouble with Control Core B. In my current play-through (torment), the Rots there were no trouble at lvl 32 (fire creation only shaper), though I did have to burn a curing spore for each one I killed to clear up the acid they splash on death (haven't got cleanse group yet). The unbound really shouldn't be giving you such a hard time either. I'm thinking something may be going wrong with your equipment, skill allocation or tactics. In control core B, did you take out the western rogue groups before challenging synthesis mind? With the Unbound, have you tried buffing your wingbolt with essence armor and then sending it in first to sort of duel the Unbound for a round before engaging with your other creations? What do your skill levels (particularly shaping skills and intelligence) and equipment look like? What buffs do you use before combat? Do you use ensnaring fibers and such for tough fights? You mentioned that you'd tried four Shock Tralls, so I'm guessing you'd absorbed some of your other creations. That may not have been wise (leveled up creations are much more useful), but it would give you an opportunity to re-do your creation mix. I'd recommend at least one Gazer - they're a hard counter to unbound, cryodrayks, drayks and podlings and a soft counter to drakons, making them awfully useful. Also, for endgame purposes it just doesn't make sense, IMHO, to run with less than 7 creations. Use more drayks and fewer essence heavy creations if essence cost is a problem. A leveled, buffed drayk will do 200+ damage a shot, average (assuming you're wearing creation buffing gear), for only 60 essence. Two drayks will do way more damage than one war trall.

If you haven't, get the girdle of genius and the skein of wisdom (charm). The quicker you have enough essence for your endgame creation group, the more time they have to level up. One drayk is useful because they've got superb fire resistance. Given that you have four essence heavy creations already, three drayks (possibly one of them a cryodrayk) isn't a bad way to fill out the roster. Drayks, at high levels, have greater damage output than cryodrayks and are quite versatile. As a lifecrafter, you are wholly dependent on your creations, so equip accordingly. Projection Band, Lifeforce Gauntets (if you're tricky you could get the essence infused iron to upgrade to Lifecraft Gauntlets fairly soon, though it would be a tough fight), and thirsting knife are good places to start. Make sure you're buffed before beginning tough fights (switching to blessing buffing gear before buffing up right before a fight then immediately switching back is a good idea). Once you've leveled up high enough, you can afford the intelligence loss of switching to the projection belt. The Transference Suit comes a bit closer to endgame, but is very handy also.

This is interesting. G5 is the only game in the series I have played, and I wondered why Glaahks were so underwhelming. If attacks used to require 5 AP, they would have been much stronger. Jeff really should have either lowered their essence cost or given them better resistances to compensate, as the stun just doesn't do much.

Thank you all very much for the insights. Having advanced a bit further, I'm starting to think this probably isn't a particularly good method (though if DeliciousVlish can get his all-Vlish method to work, almost anything is possible). The lack of essence is pretty punishing. I'm currently level 35, and I've got a level 61 Gazer, five Vlish (levels 42 and 43) and a Plated Artilla (level 43). The Gazer in Lerman's pass appears to be impractical (probably could win if I burned through consumables, but that's not really winning IMHO), whereas it wasn't a problem with my fire shaping attempt or my intelligence focused all magic shaping try. Travald's Advisor was an absolute pain in the neck (the lack of variance in damage type really hurts there). The problem is that the aggregate damage output is just too low - probably half what I was getting from my Fire creations (Drayk's rock). Even though the Gazer is a supremely durable tank, it isn't always possible to get the enemy to focus on it. Any scenario with spawning enemies is also problematic. On the other hand, for most of the game it does work very well. Really high level Vlish seem versatile, durable and very essence efficient. The plated artilla is quite handy for spreading acid about. The Gazer isn't immortal, and is ineffective offensively against some opponents, but it really can take a tremendous beating and not drop below 600 health or so. Any fight where all, or nearly all, incoming attacks are borne by the Gazer has been pretty easy. On the whole, it basically makes your second tier creations feel like third tier creations, both as to essence cost and efficacy. This makes sense I suppose, because the shaping skill is 11 points higher than it is generally raised to, whereas the essence pool is drastically lower as this shaper is a bit of an idiot (he's only increased intelligence twice). Right now I've got my group as described above and just enough essence left to buff up (regeneration aura, blessing, protection, haste) and the switch to the +4 creation dex/strength belt from the girdle of genius. I didn't know that it was impossible to retreat from inner Gazaki-Us, so that does kill my initial plan (which was basically to rush to that point, then go back out and finish the rest of the game with my uber-EyeBeast). Brocktree, I appreciate hearing your thoughts, as I basically plagiarized your idea on this. I think that for War Trolls, what would be most relevant is the point at which you could get +6 to shaping skills from equipment. Since you can stealth your way through to the tradeskill components for the Girdle of Victory quite early (though at the cost of a few living tools and forgoing some loot in Travald's Crypt), the limiter is probably at what point you can beat the drayk for the Black Pearl Talisman. Battle creations don't tend to have much cold resistance so far as I know, but that may not be as much of a problem as I'm assuming it is (I've got pretty limited experience with the Battle tree, as I was a bit frightened of being stuck with only one damage type). If you were willing to push it, you could presumably get level 61 War Tralls with a moderate effort. They still won't dodge all that much though against high level opponents (as you figured out). It may well be a viable approach though. Glaahks are indeed unimpressive, but in this specific approach they have a role. So far as I can tell, a creations dodge chance is exclusively tied to their dexterity, which is determined by their level. Ur-Glaahks have a base level of 30, and are by far the cheapest creation with such a high base level. That in turn makes it easy to pump their dexterity by 8 for a manageable cost, giving an excellent evade tank. I think with a slightly more balanced skill point allocation (say 4 less shaping, 5-6 more intelligence) a couple of Ur-Glaahks would make excellent tanks right down through end-game. One final question: In what situations does it make sense to go for Wingbolts instead of Gazers? The Gazers just seem better in nearly every scenario, and have only a modestly higher essence cost.

So in the thread "A Return to Shaping", on page 5, Brocktree did some fascinating analysis of what it would take to get a creation to 80% dodge against Astoria. He was trying to make it work with a Shock Trall, and concluded that it would require a creation with 60 dexterity, or 55 with protection and curse on the opponent. His conclusion was the highest reasonable dexterity achievable for a Shock Trall was 46. At 46 dexterity, the Trall gets hit 3.5 times as often as it would at 55 dexterity, so the plan doesn't work. This made me sad, as I so wanted an unhittable creation. But who says I have to be reasonable? A level 70 Eyebeast can hit 55 dexterity. Thirty five dexterity from levels, 12 from equipment, 8 from buying dexterity. Granted, I'll be spending 400 essence of one creation. But it should be able to tank pretty much anything. To shape a level 70 eyebeast, you need a total shaping level of 29 (as eyebeasts have a base level of 38 but require an ability level of 3 to shape). You can get 6 through equipment, so you'd need to raise the skill to 23 through skill points (at a cost of 154 skill points for a shaper). Realistically I wouldn't mechanics and leadership below 9 and 8 respectively, which is another 46 points. Assuming a target level of 45, that leaves just enough skill points to bump intelligence to 13 (with another +2 from charms, brining the total to 15). That would give 700 essence, which should be adequate. Five vlish and a plated artilla would fill out the roster at a modest essence cost, and should be able to keep everything cursed. They'll be at a very high level for tier 2 creations as well. So is this plan viable? Were I an intelligent person, I'd have asked the veterans here that. Instead, despite not knowing what I'm doing (got the game a couple weeks ago), I decided to try it. I haven't gotten to the eyebeast yet, but the results through level 25 are interesting. I've raised mechanics to 9, leadership to 10, boosted intelligence by one, and every other skill point has gone to shaping. This has left me quite short on essence, but I've been able to clear content with a very essence modest group. As of writing, I just defeated wthe drayk guarding the passage stone in West Shadow Road with a party of me, one ur-glaahk (dexterity boosted by 8), 2 vlish and a plated artilla. A similar group (ur-glaahk without boosted dexterity, both it and its successor were level 51) cleared western okanavo and the Alpha camp in southwest okanavo. Two glaahks took out the podlings guarding the create glaahk canister in Gorash Kel. Before that, one glaahk, 3 vlish and my plated artilla cleared most of the Podling Crossroads and picked up the Girdle of Genius (sorely needed) from the Podling Queen. No consumables were needed. I wasn't confident any of that was going to work (and in honesty, it hasn't been quite as easy as it was in my all-fire creation or sane all magic creation playthroughs, where I started pumping intelligence after getting the creation skill to a reasonable [as opposed to this plan's unreasonable] level). However, Glaahks are an almost perfect counter to podlings, as they strongly resist podlings' primary attacks and podlings have no resistance to theirs. That made it easy to get the girdle of genius and the canister needed to create Ur-Glaahks (which is otherwise difficult to access at lower levels without Burning Thads, but if you've pumped battle shaping it makes no sense to go for Ur-Glaahks). Really high level Ur-Glaahks with boosted dexterity can tank a whole lot, as very few level appropriate enemies have hit rates higher than 20% against them (particularly when cursed). I've got to say, it's a lot of fun. It feels like I'm triumphing over vastly superior opponents. Soon I'll have enough essence to trade my Ur-Glaahk in for a Gazer, and I'm guessing that will be the point things start rolling down hill. Hopefully. So, Spiderweb veterans who actually know what you're doing: Am I nuts? Or could this work?

Shape a Gazer with no intelligence. Let it get damaged to about 30% health. When it goes rogue, it will daze the rest of your creations. Totally unexpected. When under your control I don't see any way to make it daze. But when rogue, it will.

Interesting note: A rogue Gazer will daze the rest of your creations. This is kind of hilarious. Is there any way to make a controlled gazer daze the other guys?