mikeprichard

Ah, right, thanks - it was the incentive to avoid "losing" that creation XP along with the creation. Agree the new mechanics are much less fussy, as well as more thematic. Jeff's improved his games with things like this quite a bit over the years. (Another example is no longer having to juggle the timing of buying skill points from trainers vs. obtaining points from books/quests etc. to avoid gimping your max skill potential.)

On that game mechanics side - I know increasing Shaping skills does increase the stats of existing creations, so what are the reasons the remakes are considered to lend themselves more to "disposable" creations than the originals? I've skimmed Randomizer's "changes from the original" Strategy Central-linked topic, but am not quite grasping this point.

12 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I am sad when I "have" to kill my faithful creations because I need to make better creations. 

(Honestly, I wish we had the ability to let them go, even if it cost something. Pay a keeper. Put up something to keep them from going rogue. Not kill them with the blood staining the floor where a totally loyal creation that has saved my life and fought for me several times was.) 

I keep my first Fyora even when I don't need her because she's the first Creation I made.

Totally agree on this point, though it's almost certainly part of Jeff's "evil" genius to "force"/strongly encourage the player to fall into exactly this moral dilemma, regardless of the MC's chosen faction/ending/other choices. I usually run Guardians for G1-3 with very limited creation use, then switch to serviles in G4-5 both for RP and gameplay reasons (melee supported by magic, with no shaping - I really dislike how that weapon > magic > shaping stat spread isn't available in the first three games!).

And that's the central dilemma Jeff presents in these games - when you start to succumb to the temptation (however well-intentioned, and despite understandable arguments that fire must be fought with fire) to essentially make yourself a god with direct unquestioned power over life and death... where does that end? When do you become nothing more than the original evil?

As with modern destructive technology in our own world, we can't unring the bell - but can at least try to make decisions that don't devolve into the ends justifying the means. I'm not saying that's either easy or necessarily "realistic" in either the GF world or ours, but this is how philosophers make a living (with interest from anyone wishing to prevent the worst excesses of human nature).

True - a valid distinction between extreme discrimination/oppression vs. outright Shaper-style slavery, which of course is morally indefensible. (Though of course, as you note, the Takers have no qualms about committing genocide against the Awakened. Not exactly the good guys.) I just find the Taker leaders and more extreme members to be miserable hyper-arrogant hypocrites.

Yes, I've played G3-G5. They didn't do anything to change my view on the extreme "Taker"-style stance. (Destroy the Shapers... and pretty much anything else... while becoming arguably even worse than the Shapers. Their claims to liberate creations are also extremely hypocritical - it's just another round of might makes right, with Drakons etc. on top, and everyone else falling in line or else. No, thanks!)

Agree that Barzahl's (equally, IMO) awful, though.

Yeah, IMO the Awakened - setting aside whether their goals are actually realistic/achievable in the way the (extremely naive) Pinner frames them - are by far the most relatable/likeable faction. The Servants are... not great, but less terrible than the Barzites and Takers, both of which are equally awful/obnoxious/dangerous/violently insane (recognizing there are reasons the Takers are as irredeemably horrible as they are). /IMO

FYI in case you find some useful bits, my own planned munchkin "join several factions in turn for their benefits while getting the 'good' unaligned ending" detailed notes are in section "2)" of my post GF2 Infestation - Reputation Guide (complete list) - Geneforge Series - Remasters - Spiderweb Software Forums (ipbhost.com).

Good one - congrats!

Based on mod author Waladil's permission for me to link to the mod here, the author has just released a game version 1.0.1-compatible mod I (and perhaps others) find extremely useful:

1.0.1 QOL Junk/Hoarders mod, AKA Drypeaks Effective Recycling Program :: Geneforge 2 - Infestation General Discussions (steamcommunity.com)

Summary of the mod (current as of the time of writing; for any updates, check the above linked Steam topic):

1) Almost every junk item in the game (except sticks, which double as weapons) now neatly stacks in player inventory, with one stack per type of junk item.
2) Every junk item has had its value reduced to 0 (matching food and base javelins), while tunics, sandals, and cloaks have had their values set to 6 (so they'll now sell for 1 coin each).
3) +Leadership and +Mechanics items operate as charms in your pack to provide those bonuses without needing to equip them. To maintain game balance, the +Agility/+Intellect bonuses of the Infiltrator's Ring and Girdle of Leadership, respectively, are removed. However, Waladil may update the mod to include separate versions of each of these items - the standard unmodded version when equipped, and the new modded vesion when used as a charm in the pack.

Full credit for this mod goes to Waladil.

True, Random! From the above, there are more than enough canisters in the game to use 16 on the character to max the Essence Eater and reserve an additional 10 to max the Purifying Blade, with only the latter 10 not providing their skill/spells to the character. I now plan not to rely on either weapon, but it's good to have options.

Very good - nice to get confirmation from the veterans! I'll aim for the Soulblade together with the melee-upgraded Annulet, but will probably keep the Purifying Blade on the side (absorbing high-tier Battle/Mental Magic spell canisters, as I won't use those spells as a Guardian) for kicks.

Ah, I was exactly planning to use the Annulet melee upgrade together with the Eater, and didn't realize I can get it "early" by separately dueling Stannis - good info!

Probably will go with the Puresteel Soulblade - I'm getting at least 10 Melee anyway, and not fussing with canisters while getting 15% Lifedrain is nice.

Thanks! I was planning on the Guardian Claymore for RP and more STR (recognizing it's only 5% bonus damage per point) / Quick Action bonuses, but the Essence Eater - particularly given how easy it is to naturally max without reserving canisters, the fact that it does both physical and energy damage with a fairly tasty combined potential total, and the +1 STR / +2 Melee Weapons bonuses vs. the Purifying Blade's lack of stat/skill bonuses (at least according to the Atlas) - looks like the endgame winner to me. Still, I'll probably end up maxing the Purifying Blade anyway to have it around for energy damage-resistant enemies (though I'm not sure how many of those there are later), as well as the period before I accidentally kill everyone in Rising to "obtain" the Essence Eater from Guardian Stanis.

Extremely useful info; as always, much appreciated.

Nice, and thanks again - so if I at least leave 10 (not 12 per the Atlas) canisters unused, it sounds like I won't risk missing out on anything with either weapon (the Essence Eater bonus only requiring that I've used at least 16 canisters throughout the game, which I'm sure I'll hit regardless), and can keep my options open. I would be quite interested in the exact maxed damage output range of both weapons at character level 20, as well as the range for the Puresteel Soulblade, but I can eventually test that myself if needed.

Oh, I hadn't considered the Essence Eater or Soulblade, since without specific damage stats in the Atlas/elsewhere that I found, they didn't jump out. So, another few questions comparing the Purifying Blade and Essence Eater:

1) Both the Purifying Blade and Essence Eater improve based on canister use, but what's the exact mechanism? From my read of the Atlas descriptions, I think the Purifying Blade requires you to let the blade absorb up to 12 canisters (preventing you from using the canisters for their standard stat/spell/skill boosts), while the Essence Eater simply increments based on your personal canister use count. Is this correct?

2) Will I gimp the damage on either/both of these weapons if I get them too late and don't leave enough unused canisters lying around, and/or if the canister usage count incrementing the Essence Eater (if that's how it works) only starts after the weapon is obtained?

3) The Purifying Blade maxes out at 12 canisters; does the Essence Eater have a limit in this respect, and if so, what's the cap?

Thanks for Mech's/others' patience with the questions and the great info!

Yeah, I did a test using "healmenow" to run past the spinecores just to look at the Gamma and his dudes, but I think that battle (again, only playing on Normal) might be easier than the plants if I lure them back to ol' Sharon... or not. I'm still too weak to root out the plants and turret, though.

I was initially planning to get the Guardian Claymore for my Guardian run (both for RP and +STR/Quick Action purposes), but I see the Purifying Blade can gain 2 damage levels up to 12 times at the cost of sacrificing 12 canisters (not a big deal IMO to sacrifice certain "useless" spell/creation canisters - looking at you, Cockatrice and Ornk...). But this seems insanely OP, if I'm interpreting correctly - i.e., an additional 24 damage dice added to the standard damage progression based on character level! Or is it the case that the blade starts out ridiculously weak to compensate for this massive potential damage boost? I haven't even got the base blade yet, so I'm probably jumping to conclusions, but any explanations would be appreciated.

Thanks, Mech - was looking through the Atlas and coming to the same conclusion. Working my way towards Phariton's joint now.

OK, got through the first three at level 11 with some cheese tactics (luring enemies back to Sharon... lol), but holy moly, those spinecores. Will need to return at a higher level. I just want that Leadership/Mechanics ring.

Exactly - my OG G2 notes had the Emerald Chestguard as my endgame Guardian equip; no contest there. No such guaranteed double-attack tricks in the remake.

Agreed - I think it was like this in OG G2 as well. I don't plan to use any crafted equipment on my Guardian toon by endgame, except maybe the Slayer's Chestguard.

Thanks, and yep, I was assuming amphorae from the original... but of course I've also sold/"sampled" all wine so far (dah). Cheers!

Amazing. Minor point: based on other discussions, I think for the Non-Aligned Victory, "Not aligned with the Loyalists or the Awakened." should instead be "Not aligned with the Servants or the Awakened.", to use the in-game joinable faction terminology. (This area has caused a lot of confusion with other players, as I've noticed on the Steam discussions!)

Will Learned Versa make you more than one Restoration Pod, and if so, does the recipe involve Amphorae (not technically "wine" (bottles) as noted in the atlas)? If it is possible to make more than one, and it does use amphorae, guess it would be very useful to keep a few - I've sold all but one of the amphorae I've found so far...