Brocktree

You can't get Rawal's ending if you have the control tool removed.

Make them with 0 intelligence, then beat them down to close to 0 health.

Not sure if anyone has ever noticed this, but if you kill your own creations when they have gone rogue, you receive XP. This opens up an exploit by which you can harvest level ups from your own creations.

Originally Posted By: Death Knight i havent even met the takers that much and i know they are insane Nah, they aren't. But working for them is one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game. I also love how you can ally yourself with a genocidal maniac in Geneforge 5, and actually see his 'Final Solution' through to its completion. I don't think any other game has ever offered you such an option.

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S Look, I'm not saying shaping is a bad strategy, I'm saying it's not obviously better (in this one case) than the overpowered defensive strategy available to Guardians. But having several drayks and an overpowered defensive strategy are not mutually exclusive. Quote: And if you have as many drayks as possible in tow, then why not just play as a shaper in the first place? Because then you miss out on the advantages afforded to the Guardian in regards to parry and melee. Sure, Guardians will never have as many powerful creations as a Shaper character, but then, that's the whole point. The purpose of Guardians is to go headlong into battle with creation support. Quote: No argument. Let's compare to a defensive singleton build. At worst, many battles will take more rounds due to doing less damage, although the rounds will go significantly faster since you input 1/8 as many commands. At best, everything will go faster because of the above issue plus a lack of creations simplifies some UI elements, and harder battles will be easier to deal with since you don't have to worry about casualties impacting your attack plans. With creation support, battles will not only go faster, but further increase survivability of the Guardian by drawing fire. Quote: I also think that posters may be forgetting exactly how powerful drayks were in Geneforge 2, before they got nerfed in GF3. Okay, you made me go and look this up. In G2, Drayks get: Base level: 18 +60 HP bonus 4% armor (like almost all creations) No other resistance bonuses Melee attack: (Strength + 8) d 8 (like all characters in the game) Fire breath: (Strength + 20) d 6 I'm missing the part about how this is incredibly powerful. Good, yes, but not show-stopping. You just made my point for me. About 1/4 of the way through the game, you can Shape a creation which does an average of 100 damage a round with its ranged attack.

Well, I've played through GF2 as a Guardian, and I can vouch for having as many drayks as possible in tow. At worst, they will get killed. At best, they will increase your damage output per round. I also think that posters may be forgetting exactly how powerful drayks were in Geneforge 2, before they got nerfed in GF3.

Drayks aren't hard to keep alive. And even so, since the Guardian will be drawing fire, it shouldn't really be a problem. The alternative is to have all that essence go to waste.

Originally Posted By: Xelgion I did Astoria ending, then, for a complete reversal, I did Ghaldring, and I noticed that they were surprisingly... the same. I mean, there are some small differences (key being a bunch of dead nodye shapers), but in the end, the drakon empire falls, and Terrestia (spelling?) is split into rebels and shapers but there is peace and happiness following. The big difference between the Ghaldring and Astoria endings is that the Rebels obtain far more land in the former. In Astoria's ending, the Shapers retain the western half of Terrestia (ergo. all the provinces that were held by the Shapers during Geneforge 5). In Ghaldring's ending, the Shapers only get to keep their coastal provinces. Quote: Do all the endings end up with happiness and a split Terrestia? Yes for the Trakovite ending. The only difference is that Shaping is phased out. Alwan's ending is a total but hard fought victory for the Shapers. Taygen's ending amounts to complete annihilation of the rebels in a matter of weeks.

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S Yeah, Geneforge 2 really is made for solo guardians, with the overpowered Parry. Geneforge games really put the classic style difference in stark relief: between overwhelming with massive force so who cares about defense, versus the bottleneck impenetrable defense or defensive tactics that allow you to survive anything. If you could make creations with your own level of Parry, that would be great for Guardians. You can't, so if you make creations, you negate the major advantage of the Guardian (since Parry does not apply to most of your team) and you are basically playing as a Shaper with more expensive shaping skills. I never said to invest in a Shaping skill. If you can obtain two expendable drayks for no tangible investment (using equipment), surely you'd take them?

Originally Posted By: Triumph You don't need to make creations, you're relying on your own sheer brawn to power through. If you have the essence and Shaping skill from items, why would you *not* make creations? Each creation will add an extra 200 per round (hasted), and draw attacks away from the Guardian. Can you think of a better purpose for your essence?

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S The problem is that given the essence requirements for what we're talking about, if it's just a great perk, it's not good enough to justify its cost. I had forgotten how much of an issue that was with dodge strategies in Avernum and Geneforge, after trying it in Avadon where there are no undodgeable attacks whatsoever. You're right. I'd forgotten just how little essence you have in Geneforge 5. However, even if you don't sink those essence points into Dexterity, your creations should still have an OK dodge for most of the game, if you wear C.dex boosting equipment.

Originally Posted By: Alex The elephant in the room here is the aura attacks that boss-level opponents usually have. You can't dodge those with high Dexterity. How is that an 'elephant in the room'? Yes, even with high Dex you can't dodge aura/aoe attacks. I never claimed that high dex was the be all and end all. Being able to dodge even 50% of the enemies in the game reliably is pretty decent, a perk of sorts.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer Only the Taygen faction can enter a part of the Dera Lost Vaults. All you really miss is a canister. And a couple of nice items.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES I was actually talking about this part (my bolding): Quote: Wingbolt's chance to hit trall = -70% (rounded up to 20% in torment) On thing I'm quite sure of is that on Torment, enemies can't ever have less than 20% to hit (after everything else is accounted for). Ergo. If, once all the calculations are done, the enemy has a 5% to hit, this will actually be capped at 20%. Or to express in more sensible terms, the enemy's chance to *miss* is capped at 80%. Well, I've noticed the doubling of the a__a_values with three types of enemies ( a_a_a values 50, 60 and 80). Quote: When I tried to figure out what exactly Torment did -- this was in Avernum 4, but is likely the same or similar -- I had a hard time coming to any hard conclusions, but all of the effects I observed (increased HP, increased damage dealt, increased accuracy and evasion values, increased resistance to mental magic) could have been explained by one multiplicative increase to enemy level, with accompanying Geneforge-styles boosts to the four basic stats. That sounds overly complicated, to be honest. From what I can see, Torment gives enemies double a_a_a values, double damage and double HP (haven't formally tested the last two, just going over patterns I have observed). Edit: Actually, it would be more accurate to say that your creations and the PC receive double damage on Torment. I've noticed that when your own creations attack each other/the PC, double damage is inflicted. Likewise, you inflict double damage on your creations when you attack them. But not on non-friendly NPCs. Quote: Unless I'm totally mistaken, you need a Vlish (otherwise a middling creation in G5) to apply the Curse status, and there is also no way to apply it to a group of enemies. I think that severely limits the extent to which you can rely on Curse. No, you're quite correct. The only other alternative is to curse with a draining blade. I'm not sure exactly how viable that is late game. Quote: Also, I just noticed you used Shock Trall dodge rates and not War Trall dodge rates. Given the high HP decay rate and absurd essence cost on Shock Tralls, I don't think that's a fair substitution. War Tralls are only one level lower that Shock Tralls, so the dodge rate shouldn't differ much. To be honest, I don't think you can get Tralls to dodge reliably against high level named enemies, such as Astoria, named gazers, named Drakons, etc. However, it may well be possible with most other enemies.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES Two questions. First, you list the Wingbolt's chance as increasing 90% on Torment but do not list an increase for the Trall. Is that accurate? Wingbolts get a base % to hit of 100% because they use the Kill spell (ab_accuracy_adjust = 100). Then they receive another 10% at base because of this (cr_abil_level 1 = 2). Then they receive a dexterity bonus that is half their level (rounded down) At least, that is how I understand it. However, I now realise that my calculations don't gel with what occurs in the game (the chance of my enemies to hit is *less* than what is calculated) And damn, I just realised that enemies get a bonus to hit on Torment. Their ab_accuracy_adjust value doubles. Great. So now I'm completely stumped. The only way to really tell if my idea is plausible is to crank the difficultly to Torment, attack a high level enemy (eg. Astoria), and see and what level my creations start reliably evading. Quote: Second, this sounds accurate for ordinary Wingbolts and War Tralls, but many enemies in the game show up with bonus levels (and other special abilities, but the bonus stats from the levels is the key part here). To be honest, I'm not sure what the highest level enemy is in the game. Quote: Third, what is the final cost of a War Trall + 2 Int + 8 Dex? Pretty high, isn't it? Quite high. But arguably worth it if it receives such significant damage evasion. Edit: 61 Dexterity gives your creations a 20% to dodge Astoria's melee attack on Torment. With the use of Protection and Curse, your creations only really need 55 to get this. War tralls can get 12 dex from items, 8 from shaping stat (assume 16 in BS from items and points invested), 18 from base level, and 8 invested into dex on the creation create screen. Total = 46 dex. 9 points off. With a dexterity of 46, your creations will be getting a 65% chance to be hit by a cursed Astoria. Gazers will be hit 45% chance to be hit. Hmm. Not that good.

A shock trall's chance to dodge (assuming lvl 16 in Shaping skill from investment and items) Dexterity = [33 (base) + 3 (creation skill) + 16 (Shaping Skill)]/2 = 26 to Dodge = 26 * 5 = 130% Protection = 10% Dexterity boosting equipment = 8 = 40% Adding 8 dex at creation create screen = 40% Maximum to dodge = 220% If enemy cursed = 240% -------------------------------------------- Wingbolt's to hit% Base of 100% Dexterity of 24/2 = 12 = 60% Lvl of attack = 2 = 10% Total to hit = 170% Wingbolt's chance to hit trall = -70% (rounded up to 20% in torment) ------------- War trall chance to hit% Base of 80% Dexterity of 32/2 = 16 = 80% Lvl of attack = 15 = 75% Total to hit% = 235% To hit war tralls = 235% - 220% = 15% --------------------------- You could probably sink fewer points into dexterity at the create creation screen, and end up with appreciable dodge (40% is quite good for no real investment!) It's a shame essence armour doesn't add to dodge in this game.

BTW, I did some number crunching, and found that it is quite reasonable to develop upper tier creations who can dodge reliably against other upper tier creations. That is impossible to achieve with the PC. Just out of curiosity, does any creation receive a bonus to dexterity? Edit: No, they don't. In fact, no creation receives the bonuses to strength/dex/end/int designated to them in the script.However, they do receive the bonuses to quick action, parry, and luck (gazers and eyebeasties)

You can use it reliably if you level it up. The ability to charm/terrify gazers is invaluable.

I think you're underestimating the importance of being able to reliably daze/terrify/charm late-game.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES Yes, of course the Sorceress wasn't in G4. I was answering a question about why it wasn't. In G5 you can really go either way on the skill points. The 10-cap on shaping was finally eliminated, so every skill point into battle shaping really does permanently add a level (and hence 1/2 a pt to all stats) of your War tralls. Either way, you will want to invest in mental magic, spellcraft, and Battle Shaping. Shapers receive a discount of one of these skills, whereas Sorceresses receive a discount on two, so you're better off with the Sorceress in the long run. Added to which, you need to invest in Blessing Magic. As an aside, I think Jeff should have had his artist design another graphic for the game load/save screen. It would depict a warrior being approached by 7 war tralls, all with a nasty smile on their faces (no doubt eagerly anticipating the sodomy they are about to dole out). The warrior would have a 'Oh sh*t' look on his face, and his two cryoas would glance up at him with a 'What the hell are we going to do' look. That would warn you early on what to expect if you play as a warrior.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES In G5, a Sorceress is more or less comparable to a Lifecrafter/Shaper. However, G5 also gives shaping some huge boons: there is so much XP available, and there are huge bonuses to Intelligence and shaping skills available early on, and some great creations are available relatively early, too. So pumping shaping skills early can actually have a lasting impact on your party. In G4 these bonuses did not exist; the max level was relatively low, rather than high, and the best creations (Wingbolts and Drayks) had relatively little time to level up. I suspect it would have made the Sorceress a more powerful option than the Lifecrafter. I don't think the Sorceress was in GF4. I'd prefer the Sorceress in GF5 if only because of the skill point saving. You'll invest more skill points into mental magic and spellcraft than a shaping skill (for both a lifecrafter and sorceress PC), so you're better of going with sorceress for the savings.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES That's not true. Money was a motivating force with an influence that no doubt waxed and waned, but Jeff's publicly expressed attitude when he was writing Exile II (at least) was "my wife is making loads of money, so I'm just going to make this as cool as possible and maybe people will buy it!" This shifted gradually over time: gaining paid employees (first Mariann, then Linda) was no doubt a factor, as must have been the "disappointing" sales of Nethergate, which a truly dedicated amount of time went into making beautiful. The biggest factor, I'm guessing, was the birth of the children -- Jeff wrote books about that, after all, and the most common line now is that money from game sales "feeds his family." In fact, you can even see some patterns in the family planning: Games before Mariann: E1, E2 Games with Mariann: E3, BoE, N, A1, A2, G1 Games following Cordelia's birth: A3, BoA, G3, A4 Games following Miranda's birth: G4, N:R, A5, G5, A6, Av I don't think it is a coincidence that the games immediately following the first child's birth are the ones that receive the most flack on these boards. I mean, cmon guys, Poo Bomb. Nikola Tesla. "I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by married men." - Nikola Tesla

Originally Posted By: Lilith Melee combat in Geneforge has been kind of disappointing ever since Geneforge 3, honestly. Guardians in G1 could do hilarious amounts of damage and in G2 had the advantage of being nearly invincible thanks to Parry. In later games, they can still take hits pretty well but have trouble finishing a battle quickly and efficiently without the aid of creations. Yes, I've tried to play through GF5 with a warrior twice, and quit in disgust once I experienced how weak they were. Parry was neutered, and the multiplier isn't great for broadswords. The only thing warrior classes have going for them is that Quick Action works quite well. That's it. The absolute worst thing about the warrior class is that they don't have easy access to Blessing Magic, which would make them far more effective fighters! Melee has never been the best option. Yes, Guardians did huge damage in GF1, but 7 Drayks would outdamage them any day. Geneforge 2 allowed you to parry most things, but Gazers still would wipe the floor with you. Quote: In other words, you're pretty much right about Shaping and mental magic being the order of the day. (Mental magic was always useful too: it's just that before G5, we didn't have a class like the Sorceress that could take full advantage of it and still Shape reasonably well.) Mental magic was always good (dominating augmented sholai was good fun). But in GF5, lots of enemies have 1000 HP and high resistances, so you can't waste them in 2 rounds with high battle magic. You are essentially forced to resort to mental magic to survive. Originally Posted By: Fnord Which was strange, in G4, since there were classes with the other five arrangements of skills. I was never quite certain why that happened. Did Jeff think the sorceress skill set was too powerful? Were time constraints involved? I remember someone saying it was due to balance issues. Although since Geneforge 5 is so hard, the small advantages a Sorceress offers over an infiltrator aren't game breaking, they are just another card in your favour to help you survive getting molested by 800hp kyshakks.

Originally Posted By: Master1 Originally Posted By: Lilith Clawbugs in G5 are pretty good, though. After DV put out this claim, I used clawbugs and then plated bugs on my next playthrough. I have to say, the game went much smoother than previous attempts. So while you may not be able to wipe the floor with Greta, you can still be pretty powerful early on. Yes, I concede that for when you can obtain them, Plated Bugs are *very* good. Of particular interest, it is quite easy to obtain plated bugs with maximum dodge on Torment difficulty. With only two points in Battle Shaping, bugs with maxed out Dexterity will allow them to evade most enemies at that point in the game (with enemies on Torment having a minimum chance to hit your creations and PC at 20%). It's actually quite depressing, when you think about it. For a minimal investment in Essence, you obtain a fighter which does more damage, has higher hit points, and a better chance to dodge, than a well built PC warrior class. That's *humiliating*. Warrior classes really suck in Geneforge 5. At least in Avernum 5, the summons are inferior to a warrior class PC. When I used to play, I didn't invest any points in Shaping skills. I used equipment to level them up so that I can create War Tralls, and switched back to my battle equipment afterwards. Most of my points went into Mental Magic/Spellcraft. However, I'm starting to have second thoughts. It may be worth cranking up battle shaping. Each two points will grant 6 shock tralls an extra die of damage, extra hit points, and a greater chance to dodge. That's arguably better than two points of spellcraft. Equipment such as the Projection Belt may be better than I thought, too. A stat bonus to 6 creations is better than the same bonus applied to your own character. IMHO, Shaping was always king, if only because of strength in numbers. If anything, mental magic took a level in badass in Geneforge 5. Or more accurately, all your enemies took a level in badass. You couldn't just waste them in 2 rounds with pimped out battle magic, so you had to rely on mental magic to incapacitate them.

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES The dragon theory doesn't make much sense to begin with. Making it the "Dragons + Grah-Hoth Theory" is even more absurd. I've always assumed that the dragons were responsible, simply because of the proximity of the passages to their lairs, and dragons being one of the few creatures with powerful enough magic to achieve such a feat. Guess I was wrong.