Lepus timidus

Quote: Originally written by Janitorial Closet: Hmm. Why do so many of you hate G3? What is wrong with it? Repetitive, constricted, and poorly written. It's obvious that Jeff cut a lot of corners in GF3. I usually can not be bothered playing the game any further once I have reached the 4th island. To summarize, GF3 lacks the atmosphere and immersive storyline presented in GF1, the freedom and new creations/spells in GF2, and the revamping that occurred in GF4.

Quote: Originally written by Taliesin: After playing all the Geneforge series as a shaper, lifecrafter, and shocktrooper, I am thinking of playing G4 again, this time as a servile. I had heard that a huge QA and Parry boost at the beginning worked wonders for melee Guardians in the first few games (especially G2), but I believe that it doesn't help as much anymore. What do you guys think should be the first place I put skill points as a melee/mental servile? (Other than melee and mental magic, haha.) You might as well just play an infiltrator which is magic heavy and melee medium, because you'll end up ahead. As to your build, I wouldn't bother parry, as it's been useless ever since GF3. The chance to parry is slim, and the damage reduction is laughable. If you want to stand up to more damage, sink points into endurance. As I learnt the hard way, missile skills are useless in GF4. Why? Well: - The alteration to the move and attack mechanics means that any melee monster can just walk up to you and smack you in the first round of combat. So you might as well just engage in hand to hand combat. - Submission batons and null wands have been nerfed, because stun doesn't do diddly. - Even a servile will do more ranged damage with their spells than with batons/wands. - If you want to do physical damage, run up and hit them with your sword. Note that swords can get enhancements that missiles can't, such as curse and slow. - Crystals only remain effective if you invest heavily in missile and dexterity. So essentially, you're making a huge investment in order to use crystals. Is it worth it? Not from my experience.

Retlew: Quote: LT do you have any proof for your whole thing of Drakons are as diverse as humans in being greedy and power-hungry and all that? There is a huge diversity of opinion amongst the Drakons, even in Geneforge 4. I'm not going to trawl through the scripts, simply because I don't have the patience. To make my point regarding Drakons vs. humans, I'll just point to several general facts that I'm sure you can't dispute. The bulk of the Drakon resistance is interested in Shaping and reshaping itself, purely to carry out the war against the Shapers. They need to empower themselves in order to survive. Now, for comparison, let's look at the humans. You have: - The Shapers, who obtain power the traditional way, in order to rule over non-Shapers and enforce their dictates. - The non-Shaper rebels, many of whom side with the Rebellion so that they can Reshape themselves and gain illicit powers. - The Monarchs of the game, who are aligned with no-one except themselves, and seek to experiment with forbidden Shaping in order to become gods. Note that Monarch isn't exactly unique. For example: Barzhal and his cohort, Danette and her cohort, Phariton, Goetsche, Trajkov and his minions. I guess Danette isn't exactly 'unaligned', but she was independent from the Shapers for a period on Sucia, when she went behind their backs and created the Geneforge/canisters. IMHO, the bulk of the humans in Geneforge have demonstrated themselves greedy for power, and it is usually the humans who are willing to go insane to obtain that power. The difference is that I don't believe the humans have a sound reason (they merely want power for powers sake, or to stand over others), whereas the Drakons state that they need more power to survive. In fact, ever since GF2, the Drayks/Drakons have been repeating like a 'mantra' "We must shape and reshape, to become strong enough to take the battle to the Shapers". And to be honest, I do believe that the Drakons are sincere when they say this. The fact that as a society, they are overshadowing non-Drakonian races as they continue to empower themselves, is an unpleasant side effect. But it's not as if the Drakons don't attempt to share power with non-Drakons (eg. the human Geneforges, the Shaping of the serviles and humans, the canisters) So in conclusion, I'm going to say as far as generalisations go, the humans are at least as power-hungry as the Drakons.

Retlew: Quote: Dikiyoba- So you like the ending in which the maximum amount of death and destruction is dealt? And you like the ending where systematic genocide occurs? Quote: I understand that there is diversity in Drakon thought, Good. Since we both agree that there is diversity in Drakon thought, and that they ARE capable of both tolerance and rational thought, isn't it an act of injustice to target them all for extermination? Don't you agree that if the Shapers stopped their genocidal campaign, the Drakons might become less extreme, and a more tolerant and rational ideologue would prevail might prevail amongst them? Quote: but seriously, who is going to argue that they are mostly, with very, very few exceptions, greedy and powerhungary with little regard to any consequenses other than to themselves (even that doesn't always stop them!). I'm not denying that the Drakons are capable of being both greedy and power hungry, but they aren't any greedier or power hungry than humans, IMHO. Humans in this game have been seen to risk death to gain Shaping powers (Danette and her troupe, the rebel humans, Barzhal and his cohort, and Monarch), and show an enormous amount of greed (witness the merchant near the Cairn Gates who fleeces refugees). And even if Drakons have a greater tendency to be greedy and power hungry, that still isn't an excuse to target the race for extermination. They aren't mindless monsters. They are just like sapient human beings. They have flaws, strengths and fears. There is a diversity of thought and opinion amongst their ranks. Some are temperamental and quick to anger, while others are susceptible to reason. When you strip away the superficialities, you realize that Drakons are simply just another band of humans, with a different physical form. And there is no way we would tolerate systematic genocide against humans. Is there? Quote: There is a big difference between "steriotyping" a Drakon and steriotyping a human. No, there isn't. It ignores the context of the scenario, and it's just lazy. Quote: Also, LT, serviles were hardwired to not be able to do magic, and it has worked other than serviles flailing themselves to madness or altering their genes (also leads to madness) so I don't see your poin. Serviles were hardwired to not be able to do magic, but they can. And not all of the serviles who attempt to 'purify' themselves end up mad, although admittedly the probability of doing so is high!

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: Quote: Originally written by Safey: I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win. Except that the Shapers are still abiding by most of their rules even while at war. Think about it: No loose rogues killing whatever they might wander into, no leveling random towns for the sake of slaughter, diplomatic dealings with mutinous situations... The Shapers may not be morally right, but they're a considerable improvement over the Drakons. And as has been pointed out many times previously on this forum, the situations aren't symmetrical. The Rebels are losing. They are in a more desperate situation than the Shapers, hence they resort to more desperate measures. The concept of 'desperate times call for desperate measures' is clearly demonstrated by the Rebel ending. When the Shapers are put on the back foot by the Unbound, they unleash their own uncontrollable rogues. And Shapers have the moral highground? Ho hum. Thoughts of Chaos: Quote: If Ghaldring takes the thoughts of other Drakons into account, it's only because he's afraid that his rule will come to a violent end if he doesn't do his absolute best to offend none of them. Yep, but as we now both agree, Ghaldring does take the thoughts and opinions of other Drakons into account. This must mean that Ghaldring's beliefs on coexistence with humans must be shared by (at least) a significant number of powerful Drakons. If Ghaldring's beliefs were radically different from that of the majority of Drakons, it follows that he would have been deposed a long time ago. Quote: And being too independent is being on the verge of waging racial war, at least for the Drakons. The original Drayks, no, but they were close, and there's no telling what a few more generations of Shaping would have done. You conclude racial war from the premise of independence. I don't agree with such a train of logic. And I especially don't agree with a policy of irrational fear, where one genocides entire races merely because they might become a threat. Quote: That's because creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought, and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts. What on earth? I certainly don't agree with the above. And as to being 'hardwired' to follow certain patterns of thought, weren't the serviles hardwired to be unable to cast magic? And weren't they also 'hardwired' to be docile and completely dependent on Shapers? Quote: It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them. Complete and utter nonsense. The reverse claim that "It's okay for Drayks and Drakons to target humans for extermination, because the humans are unanimously against them." would be incorrect, but significantly more tenable than what you are claiming. Quote: The original slaughtering of Drayks was wrong, and Nalyd does not support that at all, That's good. Clearly you have some understanding of justice. Quote: but the current war is justified. How on earth can the 'current war' perpetuated by the Shapers be justified, when they are merely trying to finish what they have started (ie. The elimination of all Drayks?) Quote: If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination. That's supposition, and contradicted by many in game quotes where many Drayks make it clear that they are willing to coexist along humans. Quote: That [not wishing to carry out a war of extermination against the Shapers unless it was necessary] was the minority view once, back in GF2. Not now. I'm not sure if that above was a minority opinion or not regarding the Takers. What it does demonstrate is that both Drayks and Drakons are not 'hardwired' to wanting to carry out wars just for the fun of it, or even for vengeance. Quote: But Derenton Freehold is incredibly well staffed. If they tried, they could take back the lands that were lost, if not Poryphra itself. If Derenton Freehold was so well staffed, then it wouldn't have lost the surrounding lands in the first place, the Rebel armies wouldn't have been routed, and the Shaper army wouldn't have established a foothold in Poryphra. Quote: As stated before, Ghaldring's reign is hardly universally acknowledged. Ghaldring is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebels. For goodness sake, he was the one who spawned the current Rebellion. Quote: So what if Non-Drakons are better soldiers? It doesn't take war effectiveness to be an effective general or leader. Let's say you have a resistance movement consisting of several sects who share a common goal (eg. to turf out foreign invaders), and one particular sect has significantly more success against fighting the invaders. Who should lead the united resistance movement? And please, let's not deny the Drakons are looked up to by the rest of the Rebellion. While many non-Drakon rebels don't like the Drakons, they still rely on them to save their bacon. It was the Drakons who Shaped the serviles, hence empowering them. It was the Drakons who created the two human Geneforges. It was the Drakons who made the canister technology available to the humans. It was the Drakons who empowered the leader of the human resistance (ie. Lilita) It was the Drakons who created the bulk of the Creations which captured Terrestia. It is the Drakons who created the Unbound, hence winning a war which everyone thought was lost. Some Drakons can be intolerable in their attitudes towards the 'lesser races', and hopefully that will be rectified in the future. But when the **** hits the fan, everyone comes a runnin' back to them. This point is neatly demonstrated in Northforge. When you mention to Issss-Ta that the Shapers have infilitrated Northforge: "Issss-Ta looks alarmed by this news. You know what fate befalls any drayk that falls into Shaper hands. Report to Karikiss in the inner Shaping hallsss. He and the other drakonsss can arrange a defense." Quote: Because the desire for knowledge, however violent, is almost always warranted. We're going to have to agree to disagree. Quote: The Drakons may Shape out of necessity, but they do not Shape Unbound out of necessity. Yes they do. What happens in the ending where the Unbound are not shaped? Quote: quote: How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds? Quite a few. Your point? My point is that we must consider whether a piece of research will have a net benefit or net loss effect. You shouldn't just conduct research for the fun of it, especially when valuable resources and the welfare of sentient beings are at stake. Quote: That is a problem with the Shapers, not with Shaping. Um, yes, precisely. I've never argued against Shaping, per se, but merely the fact that the bulk of the research performed by Shapers is frivolous and cruel. Quote: The Shapers occasionally performing research applicable to peacetime does excuse the majority devoted to wartime. No it doesn't. The Shapers are accountable for all experiments that they perform, not just the ones which have beneficial results. There is no reason why the Shapers couldn't focus exclusively on research which benefited not only the Shapers, but all of human and creation kind. Quote: What we have here is a basic difference of opinion. You think that it is not worthwhile. Nalyd thinks that it is. I never said that Shaping isn't worthwhile. What I have said is that some fields of Shaping (the random modification of sentient creatures for warfare) are not worthwhile during centuries of peace.

ET (phone home?): Quote: I like your signature as well. Thanks! It's adapted from 'Bioshock', where the chap quoted was actually quite similar to Barzhal in some aspects. The original quote is: Quote: I am Andrew Ryan and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow? No, says the man in Washington. It belongs to the poor. No, says the man in the Vatican. It belongs to God. No, says the man in Moscow. It belongs to everyone. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Rapture. Come to think of it, since you're a fan of Barzhal and his vision of the 'improved homo sapien' via genetic manipulation, you'd probably enjoy Bioshock. But you need a pretty powerful graphics card. Quote: Too bad Barzahl died before the Trakovites existed, though. Yeah, I know. But I couldn't think of anything else. The Takers wouldn't really fit well, because they encourage self-Shaping in the extreme.

Unsellable trowels ruin the punch line of my joke, and then they tell ME to watch my language!? GAHHHHHHHHH! XD

Doh, you imbeciles have ruined my joke by being all pedantic. Damn you!

Nioca: Quote: While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte. Yes. I found that the following comment was an 'appropriate riposte.' Quote: You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal. I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm? Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion. It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it. So let's end this posturing and empty rhetoric, and get back to the discussion at hand, hmmm? You could start by providing some sort of evidence to support your blanket statements regarding the Drakon race. You claim that you've already posted this evidence, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to comb through your previous posts and paste it into a new reply, minus the prattle and insults.

There's a singing pylon in A5? Maybe the spirit within the pylon belongs to a GIFT?

Nioca: Quote: It's interesting to notice how you decided to do this when I started presenting facts that backed up my arguments. Was that before or after you called me 'deluded', while having the nerve to utter the term 'friend' in the same insult? Note how no one protested when you verbally attacked me. In case anyone has forgotten, the insult was something along the lines of: "You, my friend, are deluded". Yet when I responded with the tongue in cheek comment: "You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?", there is a sudden whinefest. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little verbal jousting in any argument. But when all an argument consists of is posturing, empty rhetoric and unsupported claims, that's when I begin to lose interest. Quote: It is apparent my arguments fall on deaf ears when it comes to you, and as such, I'll keep my debate to more reasonable members. What arguments are they exactly? Are they the ones which claim that "All Drakons are X", and when I provide quotations to demonstrate that not all Drakons are X, you backpeddle and claim "All Drakons, except Y and Z, are X". Note that at no time do you provide any actual in game evidence to support your blanket statements. I'm going to have to conclude that you treat your assertions as axioms.

SlaughteringSevile, thanks for reformatting that post. I didn't have the patience to respond to a post which was illegible. I also don't have the patience for petty posturing or addressing arguments which have been repeated ad nauseum. Quote: Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest. I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy. Quote: The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war. The Drakons aren't on the verge of waging a racial war. The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews. Quote: And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes. I refer to stereotypes in my analogy because the Shaper mentality employs stereotypes to justify their genocide. The Drayks are a potential threat because they are too powerful and independent. The Jews are a potential threat because they are too educated and industrious. I could push the analogy even further, and claim that since humans in the Geneforge universe are capable of learning how to shape vicious monsters and hurl essence lances, they are too dangerous for the drayks, serviles and drakons to let live. Why is it fine and dandy for humans to target the drayks and Drakons for extermination because they are a 'potential threat', but not for the serviles, drayks or Drakons to target the human race for extermination? Because humans are, well, humanoid? Quote: No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers. False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example: Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2: "That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into."; Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2: "You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves." Quote: The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought. First, I'd like to address the comment that the Drakons 'barely even fought' the Shapers in convential warfare Quoted from the Rebel ending (which is considered canon) in Geneforge 3: "From all over Terrestia, we have grim reports. The drakons... the rogues... they are everywhere... We are being slaughtered." "The Ashen Isles and Poryphra are your base of operations. You fight many battles. You are always victorious. Sometimes your forces fight alone, sometimes they are aided by Ur-Drakons..." I fail to see how the drakons can be 'everywhere', slaughtering Shapers and assisting human/servile rebel forces, without barely even fighting. As to the issue of the Drakons taking great losses: Barstow: "Tell me about the drakons." "The rebellion has two parts, the humans and the creations. The drakons are the leaders of the creations. Gigantic, majestic, powerful reptile creatures. I've only seen one once, but I will never forget it." "They used to fight often in the war, as I understand it. In the north, I mean. But they took great losses, and now they keep to themselves." Also note what Alwan has to say about the matter: "How goes the war?" "That is a very good question. We Shapers are advancing on all fronts. Control of the land, the air, the sea. The rebels have been routed into these northern lands, and our infiltrators harry them at every turn." And let us not forget the introduction to Geneforge 4: "And so the rebellion began. It was an alliance of humans tired of Shaper rule, and of intelligent creations who wanted to be free. They rose up, stole some of their master's power, and attacked. At first, the Shapers were caught by surprise. Much of Eastern half of Terrestia was lost... But then the Shapers regrouped, and their armies came. The rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned. Lost refugees, both human and creation, wander the rubble." Of course, you could continue to argue that the Drakons 'didn't bother' to fight conventional warfare. All this would mean is that when Jeff uses the term 'rebels', he means only the servile/human half of the Rebellion. And the term 'intelligent creations' doesn't refer to Drakons. It would also mean that the serviles and humans managed to conquer the Eastern half of Terrestia without Drakon assistance. And that Barstow is lying. But to be honest, I don't find the above assumptions very tenable. Quote: The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving. Um, what? The humans have lost the Forsaken Lands, the Southern Geneforge, and Illya Province. A strong Shaper force retook Poryphra and the lands surrounding Derenton Freehold. The human/servile alliance's "Plan B" involves hoping that the Drakons will complete their grand project, and save the Rebellion's ass. Quote: But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why? Because: 1. Ghaldring, a Drakon, is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebellion. Even high ranking human rebels, such as Lilita and Greta, defer to him. Hence his edicts are given highest priority. This means that when Ghaldring orders one of his Drakon subordinates to manage a village in the name of the Rebellion, the inhabitants of that village must also obey Ghaldring's subordinates 2. Non-Drakons are of lower rank in regards to the organisation of resistance because Drakons are the most effective soldiers. Once again, this is universally acknowledged by the servile/human resistance. Quote: Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary. So why do you fail to condemn the Shapers for engaging in cruel Shaping experiments, while moaning and whining about Drakons doing the same thing? Especially given that the Drakons shape out of necessity, whereas the Shapers do not. Quote: Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge? How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds? Quote: The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare. At last you're starting to grasp my point, after we've been going around in circles for God knows how long. As we both agree, the vast majority of Shaper research is directed at warfare. But why? Why is research into a better thahd or glaak necessary during an era of peace? How does such research contribute to the betterment of society? Such research is unnecessary, horridly cruel and wasteful (the resources expended on this frivolous Shaping could be spent on grain to feed villages suffering famine). Merely because the Shapers occassionally perform useful research does not excuse the vast majority of their other research, which is cruel and unnecessary. Quote: The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks. The desire to gain knowledge purely for knowledge's sake, while inflicting horrendous suffering on sentient beings in the process, is perverse. This isn't just my opinion, it's the unanimous opinion of international and national bodies who helped frame guidelines and laws for ethical scientific research (read the Nuremburg Code, the Helsinki Declaration, or the research ethic guidelines of your nation). In order to fulfil the requirement for ethical conduct of research, researchers must demonstrate that their research isn't frivilous, and it minimizes harm to the participants, whether human or animal.

I think all the sects in GF2 have something to admire. Barzhal's gumption and courage to go where 'no man has gone before'. Zakary's repentance and adherence to his beliefs. The Awakened's desire to negotiate with the Shapers, despite the pain they caused serviles in the past. The Taker's pure grit and determination in taking the battle to the enemy. Overall, I tend to find myself sympathising with the Takers.

Excalibur: Quote: I recently viewed this thread...I didn't know a debate could occur concerning Geneforge. Why not? Geneforge isn't some pointless game for morons. If you want that, play Avernum 4.

Given that GF5 is the grand finale, I'd like to see the return of: - The Awakened and their philosophy, even if it is only token. - A group who have beliefs equivalent to the Barzites. - The return of the Sholai. I also think that a showdown with the Shaper Council is inevitable. We've all been expecting it since GF2. I don't care if the climax is 'cliche'. As long as it is a well done cliche, then I will be happy. After all, a showdown with the other half is long overdue.

No one is forcing you to read my posts, are they now?

I was just chatting with a friend, and trying to 'sell' Geneforge to them. They asked me for a rough outline, and while elaborating, I realize that the game helps to initiate exploration into some key issues. Off the top of my head, some of the things which have been discussed on these forums include: - Does a creator have complete authority over its creations? This could apply to either a parent-child relationship, or a god-worshipper relationship. - The level of control a government should have over its subjects and their access to knowledge. Or, in the words of V for Vendetta: Should a people fear its government, or a government fear its people? - Whether scientific disciplines should be self regulated. - At what point does the research practiced become cruel and unnecessary? - Is genocide ever a viable policy in order to maintain peace and stability? - Does might make right? Ergo. Social Darwinism. - If your race is targeted for extermination, what methods are acceptable in a fight for survival? What methods are acceptable in the fight for autonomy? Is the ensuing chaos worth it? - Is corruption an inevitable result of obtaining power? What safeguards should be put in place to prevent corruption? In many ways, Geneforge is similar to Bioshock. Granted, I don't always think Jeff approaches the issues listed above in the best way (the Drakons and Rebels are rarely seen justifying their behaviour), and the dialogue can be a little weak, but at least his games encourage thought and stimulate discussion about such topics. I don't think the Ultima series ever achieved such a thing, except perhaps Ultima 8 (where the Avatar acted quite unvirtuous!) Hopefully Jeff reads the debates we've had on these forums, and incorporates some of the arguments we've used into the dialogue for GF5.

Azuma: Quote: All SpidWeb ga..no..almost all PC-based games requires a lot of clicking.. Sure. But I included the word 'just'. JUST lots of clicking. Clicking without any of the enjoyment usually attached to computer games. Avernum 4 took the worst elements from the previous Avernums and Geneforges, and merged them into one terrible product. And I don't care if it sold well. So did Revenge of the Sith and Titanic.

Quote: What if I wanted to use shaped armour? can that be purified after enchanting it? I think so, but don't quote me on that! Quote: Anyway, seems I can go ahead and put acid on my shaped blade and use that till I can get better. Yeah, go ahead and slap some acid damage on your shaped blade. The shaped blade isn't long term, since better weapons will be coming along very soon (Guardian Claymore) Quote: Is it not possible to make more than one golden crystal? Yep, you can make more than one golden crystal. You can find multiple golden crystals in the game, too. Quote: And I though the ivory skull cursed the target, not did more damage? Cursed target = More damage for all of the proceeding strikes. Oh, and don't forget the increased chance to hit, and the penalties to hit and damage that the opponent suffers.

Usually the fire/cold/acid damage adds about... 15 damage? Hardly anything to write home about. I'm not sure how much the Golden Crystal adds, but I doubt it's preferable to placing the Golden Crystal in your armour, and giving 10% or 5% to resistances. Whenever I enchant a weapon which I'm going to use long term, I try to use either the ivory skull (all following hits do more damage) or the runed onyx (slow upon hit). I know that you're trying to do an 'extra sliver' of damage, but why not just add a few points to strength or melee? Or use a more damaging weapon? Iffy: Quote: Yes, the Guardian Claymore. This wepon is the most powerfull wepon in the game. Debatable, especially considering the Puresteel Soulblade and Tek's Spectral Dirk, although there's no denying that the Guardian Claymore is a fantastic weapon.

Yeah, you'd spend 150+ essence on a Drakon to carry your junk. Fantastic!

Avernum 4 was just lots of clicking. BOOOORRRRRIIIINGGGG.

Retlew: Quote: If you don't remember, you walk into a power struggle including the new generation who almost exclusively hate humans and wish to sever ties. Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think, his stances don't matter all that much if he leads the drakons to victory and they don't feel that they are too subservient to his rule. If Ghaldring ruled simply by being the strongest, then he would have taken Salassar out the back and ripped him a new hole, without all the finagling involving the PC. But as Ghaldring himself explains: "Why didn't you kill Salassar yourself?" "It would not have been wise. Drakons are proud. If they felt I was only ruling by killing those I did not like, then, no matter how much they owed me, they would have brought me down in the end." So clearly Ghaldring doesn't rule just by 'being the strongest', but by winning the hearts and minds of his fellow Drakons. He needs to take the wishes and feelings of his Drakons into account, or else they will gang up and usurp him. If Ghaldring's views do not reflect the common view of his Drakons, then it only follows that he would be deposed. Thought of Chaos: Quote: The Shapers targeted the Drayks for genocide because they were dangerous. So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey. Quote: It was a logical conclusion that they would one day slip from Shaper control Yep, that's a logical conclusion. Independent beings usually don't like being under someone's thumb. Quote: and, if not rampage around killing the humans that enslaved them, seek to establish their own civilization to eventually challenge Shaper supremacy. Conjecture. You're assuming that every race is as vile, imperialistic, controlling and violent as the Shapers. Quote: Perhaps genocide was not the best solution, and Nalyd certainly doesn't think it was, but given the centuries of Shaper conditioning and the good track record of this method, it was a reasonable one. The policy of genocide doesn't have a good track record, as evidenced by a Rebellion where the serviles, eyebeasts, drayks and drakons are all united. When such disparate races come together despite their differences, that symbolizes how the genocide policy has failed. Laki: Quote: The Dracons are as you said forced to be cruel to shapers but are not forced to create uncontrolable powerfull monster(unbound)that will destroy anything that moves. No, just no. Please, I urge you to replay Geneforge 4. The Drakons engaged in conventional warfare against the Shapers. They were smashed. The human/servile resistance was annihilated. The Drakons retreated to Northforge to create the Unbound while the Shapers advanced. Finally, the Unbound were completed, just as the Shapers reached the Northforge Warrens. It was either release the Unbound and save the Rebellion, or destroy the Unbound and have the Rebellion quashed, and the remaining humans, serviles, drayks, drakons and eyebeasts (we can't forget the poor baby eyebeasts, can we now?) slaughtered. Releasing the Unbound was justifiable self defense. Quote: So I think the moral highground has human/servile part of rebellion As you so astutely point out, the human/servile part of the Rebellion can afford to have the 'moral highground' because they allow the Drakons to do their dirty work. Nioca: Quote: You, my friend, are deluded. You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise? Quote: The only Drakon that showed mercy and tolerence is Ghaldring, False. I could dig up quotes from numerous Drakons who, at the very least, are willing to tolerate the company of non-Drakons. But I don't know if I should expend the effort, as I feel that you're not arguing in good faith. Quote: and his rule, if GF4 shows anything, is already in severe danger. Hyperbole. His rule was challenged by Salassar, and this challenge turned into a flop. Quote: The rest would be all to happy to shred you on the spot. Doubly false. Even Salassar, the most anti-human of the Drakons, isn't interested in carrying out a war of extermination against all humans. He merely wishes to break all ties with them. Quote: Oh really? Is the shaping lab behind the Drakon's warrens in Khima-uss out of this so-called necessity? Yes. Can't you see why Drakons need to shape in order to fight a far superior force of Shaping masters? What do you expect the Drakons to use in their fight against the Shapers... sticks and cotton balls? Quote: Is the fact that they effectively kicked serviles out of Khima-uss No they didn't. The Drakons took control. Isn't that what military leaders do? They establish a base of operations, and then order those of lower rank about? It's not exactly pleasant, but in warfare these things must occur. Quote: or made them slave labor According to that logic, every human in the Shaper army, as well as those who supply and feed said army, are slave labour. I agree that the Drakons who moved into Khima-Uss didn't exactly go about the acquisition diplomatically, but to condemn them for merely establishing a base of operations during a war, and equating their actions to slave labour, is hyperbole. Quote: No to the first, So you agree that the Shapers survival did not depend on their ability to Shape? Quote: but yes to the second. Most of the developments in shaping came from those experiments. False. A rare few developments in Shaping came from numerous Shaping experiments, many of which were cruel and unnecessary. Merely because some experiments brought about advancements, does not mean that all (or even the majority) of experiments performed were necessary or relevant. For example, one particular Nazi experiment involved bleeding prisoners, and observing the process of blood loss leading to death. Today, that experimental material is used by the medical establishment to determine how much blood loss has occured in a patient who has suffered trauma. According to your rationale, since one Nazi experiment brought about advancements, then the entire slew of experiments served the greater good. Quote: Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Try again. Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Yes. Much like how the Nazis used to burn prisoners of war with phosphorus bombs, and then examined the wounds. Why would anyone need to mutate glaahks and thahds? What greater good does that serve? If the Shapers had been targeted for extermination by a superior military force prior to the emergence of the Rebellion, then I could understand why they needed to experiment on glaahks and thahds. But the Shaper empire had experienced centuries of peace, there was no need to engage in such warped experiments, expect for their perverse desire to gain knowledge. Quote: Oh, and while we're making vaguely related comparisons between Geneforge and real-life events, the Rebels are the equivalent of modern-day terrorists. No they aren't. Terrorists delibrately target civilians for political purposes. The Rebels release creations whose role is to kill the Shapers and their allies, but unfortunately cause a lot of collateral damage. A more accurate comparison is with the artillery bombardment employed by first world nations such as the United States and Israel. Quote: No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside). False. Your blanket statement is so absurd, I don't think it really requires a rebuttal. Quote: I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health. He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane. Quote: Except for the backstabbing, brainwashing, and hypocrisy. Backstabbing, brainwashing and hypocrisy? I have never observed such things in the Drakon resistance. Quote: It is interesting to see how you can put a much lower value on the deaths of millions Millions? Your hyperbole generator is acting up again. Quote: of innocent bystanders Innocent? Are these the same humans who supply the Shapers, feed them, provide equipment for their cruel Shaping experiments, and happily exploit servile labour while baying for Drayk and Drakon blood? Granted, not all humans are Shapers, but they do resemble the Germans who happily profited under Nazi rule. Don't expect any sympathy from me. Quote: versus the death of a few hundred who posed a serious threat to security, and possibly the world. Who posed a serious threat because they were being targeted for extermination. Quote: Quite frankly, the shapers were clearly correct in assuming that the Drayks were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted because they survived! Quite frankly, the Nazis were clearly correct in assuming that the Jews were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted in places such as the Warsaw Ghetto, because the Jews there were allowed to survive! In case you haven't realized yet, your reasoning in circular. "Why are we killing the Drayks?" "Because they dangerous. Just look at how they are attacking us!" "Why are they attacking us?" "Because we are killing them."

Wojiz: Quote: Next is the shapers. They have the most practical argument going for them; sure, they can be unjust sometimes and even cruel, but in times of conflict it's absolutely necessary. Shouldn't that argument also apply to the Drakon resistance? I mean, how much larger a conflict is there than fighting for your very existence? SoT: Quote: Is it possible for Drakons to respect humans and serviles? Drakons were created as a superior race dedicated to the endless and ruthless pursuit of further superiority. Dryss from GF2: "Why do drakons work with serviles? You are so much larger and stronger." "Being stronger meansss we automatically get to crush them? That is Shaper thinking." ... "Servilesss have skillsss and strength of their own."

Wouldn't it be great if your character could start as a Drakon?