Lepus timidus

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: See, this is another place where your logic is flawed. The Rebels aren't just after self-preservation; they plan to annihilate the Shaper empire. The two above goals you stated are not mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, annihilation of the Shaper empire is necessary to achieve self preservation and autonomy. Quote: Now, if they were after just the removal the Shapers from power, I could support that. But they want to destroy it entirely. And for good reason. If you refer back to the Rebel ending I posted for Geneforge 3, the Shaper Council from Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender, that even if the world is torn apart they will be the rulers of it. Quote: And you say they're justified in doing so? That's exactly what I'm saying. I didn't think I was being vague or ambigious. Quote: Turns out, there's another word for what the Rebels are after: GENOCIDE. I'm sorry Nioca, but I don't support genocide, I only support the killing of individuals who are against the Rebels 'in spirit'. Quote: I also want to add that, to my knowledge, no one here is saying that the Shaper genocides were justified. What? According to my recollection, numerous posters have justified the genocide of the Drayks and Drakons, because "If the Shapers hadn't struck first, the Drayks would have." Typical neo-con logic.

Quote: Originally written by The Ratt: [QB]One thing you forgot, is maybe the civilians in the towns that didn't expel their shapers were actually happy with the way the towns were being run. Perhaps the towns wouldn't even exist if not for the shapers stationed there. You seem to have completely forgotten that is possible. It's possible, it's also possible that the Shapers use threats of extreme violence to coerce the civilians to stay. But either way, that doesn't change the fact that it's god damn cowardly to hide behind civilians. Even if you don't think it's cowardly, you can't deny that it is rather asnine for the Shapers to whine about the civilian casualities caused by the Rebel tactics, when their armed forces mingle with the civilian population. What the hell did they expect? If soldiers are willing to fight urban warfare, then be prepared for some civilian casualties. Lebanon recently learnt that lesson, the hard way. If the Shapers truly were concerned about the lives of their subjects, then they would ask them to vacate the settlement prior to the siege. They would set up refugee camps or negotiate ' protected areas' with the Rebels, where their subjects would be safe from harm. Oh wait, I forgot, Shapers don't negotiate with their creations.

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: Yes, you should. Thank you. My pleasure. The Shaper mentality of 'We will retain our positions of privilege, no matter the cost' is quite eye opening, isn't it? In fact, the Shapers remind me of Arcturus Mengsk from Starcraft: "You'll regret that. You don't seem to realize my situation here. I will not be stopped. Not by you, or the Confederates, or the Protoss, or anyone. I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me!" The good ole "If I can't have it, no one can." mentality. Whether the Shapers subjects suffer and die to retain the status quo is apparently incidental. Quote: They have an entire culture in which all humans are born into and live their whole lives under. There are no other cultures to look too, no different opinions to choose from. Shaper society controls people just as much as Shapers control creations. I disagree. From what I have seen, Outsider human society is semi-autonomous, and not as Orwellian as you make out. Those who practice magick are usually under close Shaper scrutiny, but the average peon can usually fly below the radar. In fact, it appears to me that the Shapers are rather elitist, and tend to remain apart from Outsider society. Outsider humans aren't placed in 're-education' camps, and are capable of making the realisation that serviles are intelligent creations. They just choose not to, because it benefits them to continue to hold the worldview that serviles are nothing more than dumb animals. This is where we have a fundamental disagreement. You seem to believe that the Outsider humans hold anti-Creation views primarily due to social conditioning, that it's not the poor dears' fault. I believe that they hold such views primarily because it is convenient for them to do so. There may be some social conditioning involved, but nothing which a decent individual can't overcome. Quote: But if you are justified in waging total war, then the Shapers are justified waging total war too. No, because the circumstances for Rebels and Shapers aren't symmetrical. Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter simply to retain your position of privilege so that you can continue oppressing and genociding, after having oppressed and genocided sapient races for centuries, is not justified. Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter of your oppressors out of self-preservation, and to wriggle out from under the control of an oppressive regime, is justified. And let's not kid ourselves, the distinction between 'Shaper' and 'Outsider human' isn't significant. Outsider humans willingly profit off Creation slave labour, and support Shaper genocide, as much as the Shapers themselves do. You're focusing too much on the method, without considering the context, Diki. Your mentality is slack-jawed and simplistic. It's the equivalent of postulating "If a woman can strike her rapist in self-defense, aren't you also justifying his right to strike her back?" Hell no, not when you consider the context. The rapist shouldn't have tried to play hide the salami with her in the first place. The Shapers and the Outsider humans created and enslaved the serviles and then butchered any who displayed any independent thought, the ones who targeted several races of sapient beings for extermination. They are the oppressor (ie. the rapists), and fight so that they can continue to oppress. And you expect their victims to treat them fairly? To inconvenience themselves and risk their own lives so that they don't accidently don't kill an oppressor who bakes bread for the Shaper army instead of an oppressor who actually serves in a regiment of said army? Are you kidding me? When the oppressed are faced by their genocidal oppressors, then the gloves come off. When you have to fight such people, anything goes. Simple as that.

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: Quote: Originally written by Lepus timidus: "Every settlement is given the chance to expel its Shapers to avoid destruction. Not all make that choice." Shapers willing to see entire settlements destroyed due to their cowardice and hubris. Who here said that the Shapers don't hide behind their civilians? I did. And I'd hardly call it cowardice to stand and fight, and this is hardly proof that the Shapers hide behind their civilians either. So the Palestinian terrorists who fire at Israeli targets from areas heavily populated with civilians are not hiding behind their civilians? They are just 'standing and fighting' in a non-cowardly fashion? The fact of the matter is that the Rebels only have a grudge against the Shapers, yet the Shapers feel it necessary to involve non-Shaper humans in the conflict. They hide in settlements (note: settlements tend to have high numbers of civilians, in case you aren't aware), knowing full well that the entire settlement will be destroyed due to their presence. That's not the behaviour of a hero. It's the behaviour of a coward who feels it is necessary to bring everyone else down with them.

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: [QB]LT: I see it's a lost cause. I'll let you carry on with your bigoted viewpoint; it's obvious I'm not going to change it (and I second Xel and the Ratt on the Nazi references; knock it off already). Well, I could use the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turks as an example, instead. Or Bosnian Muslim and Croatian genocide perpetrated by the Serbs. But I'm much more familiar with the Holocaust, and had several Slavic relatives suffer under Nazi occupation. So it makes sense to use it for comparison of the Shapers policies of oppression and genocide. The fact of the matter is that when genocide occurs in the real world, we react with horror and disgust. Throughout our childhood, we are taught the horrors of the Holocaust, and everyone swears "Never again." Yet here many posters are, defending the genocide perpetrated by the Shapers. I know that it is only a PC game, but the fact that you can justify genocide on an ideological level is quite scary.

*double post*

"Every settlement is given the chance to expel its Shapers to avoid destruction. Not all make that choice." Shapers willing to see entire settlements destroyed due to their cowardice and hubris. Who here said that the Shapers don't hide behind their civilians?

Quote: Originally written by Dikiyoba: I don't have G3, so could you please post a screenshot for me? Hmm, I dunno. I'd have to reinstall the game and load up on of my old saves. Should I do that for someone who didn't purchase Geneforge 3? Quote: But the humans have spent their whole lives under Shaper dominance and ideology too, so in a sense, they've also been brainwashed. ... In many cases, it's just ignorance. I don't buy it, because throughout the entire series we don't see any serious attempt by the Shapers to 'brainwash' the Outsiders with propaganda, and there is no such thing as 'mass media' to make such a feat possible. And even if they did, that is hardly an excuse. Outsiders work frequently around creations, so they should be able to see through any Shaper lies. And the fact that the Rebellion contains independent serviles (I fail to see how the Shapers could stifle THAT tasty bit of knowledge) is the final nail in the coffin that serviles are only dumb animals. And as to the targeting of the Drayks for genocide, it doesn't matter what propaganda you are fed. Any reasonable and decent person would lean back on their heels and issue an empathatic "WTF!?" if they heard that an entire race was to be wiped out, simply because they are too independent to live (that's the excuse the Shapers give to the Outsiders, as far as I'm aware). From what I've seen throughout the series, the Outsiders don't support the Rebellion because they profit under the current status quo imposed by the Shaper regime. Even if there is the slight possibility that a grown adult human is stupid enough to get suckered in to believing lies and supporting enslavement and genocide, I don't really care. Someone that mentally stunted deserves to die. I'm not going to shed any tears if they happen to get caught in the crossfire, and there's no way in hell I'd inconvenience myself (at the risk of my own troops lives) to try and spare them. This is what many people can't seem to grasp. I'm not for the killing of innocent civilians. I'm for the killing of all of my enemies, even the vocal ones, even the ones who support soldiers in a non-military manner. In the Geneforge world, that translates to the bulk of the humans, not just a noisy minority infected by extremism. They are all enemies of the Rebellion. So you don't need to send a troupe of soldiers into a settlement to selectively kill the Shapers (while losing your own troops in the process), you can just blow the whole settlement to smithreens with no guilt whatsoever. That's how wars are meant to be fought, none of this pussyfooting BS that some of the pansies here tout. As Michael Corleone once said: "I don't feel I have to wipe everybody out, Tom. Just my enemies."

Quote: Originally written by Nioca: [QB]Intentionally? No. But you see, their rebellion effectively proves (to Shaper eyes) that the Shaper ideologies were right all along. The Shapers always think that their restrictive treatment of Creations is right. Whether the Creations fight back against genocide and oppression is incidental, at best. The Shapers and Outsiders would still be genociding and enslaving them, either way, and this is demonstrated by the fact that despite centuries of peace, the Shapers and their Outsider minions are still *******s. They haven't unbarred Drayks, they haven't changed their attitudes regarding independent creations, they haven't even considered servile emancipation. You might as well argue that any Jewish resistance against the Nazis supported Nazi ideology, by confirming that the Jews were indeed violent savages out to destroy Germany. And that since the Jews supported ideology, the Germans who supported the Nazi's 'Final Solution' get off clean. Good work, Schatner. I applaud your efforts to exonerate those who either passively or actively assist in enslavement and genocide, while condemning any resistance whatsoever performed by the oppressed to defend themselves against the oppressor. Quote: That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more. I've yet to go on a safari so I may be wrong here, but I don't know of any savage feral beasts that can master Shaping, magick, battle craft, and tactical warfare. Quote: So the Rebels are unintentionally supporting Shaper ideologies. They aren't 'supporting' squat, whether a Shaper or Outsider human chooses to hold bigoted beliefs is entirely up to them. One doesn't need to think too hard to realize that the Rebels have a perfectly good reason for rising up. The Rebels act to destroy the old guard and its antiquated ideals, and the only way to do this is through a good ole fashioned beat down. If the Outsiders can't realise this due to their mental retardation, then that's hardly the fault of the Rebels. I guess we could sit around quibbling about 'intentionally support' and 'unintentionally' support, but the point is moot, and I've got better things to do. We both know that there is an important difference between holding prejudical views (ergo. supporting a cruel regime 'in spirit') while going out of your way to assist in the oppression and genocide of a race, and having said race being made a scapegoat. You're just trying to obfuscate the issue with a one trick pony. Do you have anything better than semantics, or should I turn in for the night?

The rebels support the Shaper regime?

Nioca: Quote: Alright, I'm going to play along here for a minute. Basically, if something supports the Shaper regime in any way, it has to die. Correct? Yep, with the exception of perhaps those serviles and other creations who have been brainwashed from birth to slavishly serve the Shapers. I would rather see re-educated. But if they happen to die at the hands of the Unbound, that's just unavoidable collateral damage. Jews, including those in the camps, also died when the Allies carpet bombed German cities. But other than that, you're correct. I'm glad that I hammered my point home, and that you were able to grasp it with minimum confusion (a rare feat!). Note that in the Geneforge universe, it's not just the Shapers or a small bunch of extremists who hold anti-Creation views. Anti-Creation views are widespread amongst the human population, both Shaper and Outsider, otherwise the humans would have risen up in disgust and protested for Creation emancipation. Anti-Creation views are as widespread in Geneforge as anti-semitism was in Nazi Germany, both at the level of the Nazi Party, and the average German citizen. If you were a Jew (or Slav, or Gypsy, or Communist) during that period, would you shed any tears if the Allied carpet bombing killed a bunch of Germans? I doubt my Slavic ancestors did. Granted, there are some Outsiders who feel 'sympathetic' towards the mistreatment of serviles, but that doesn't stop them from exploiting them as a source of free labour and continuing to perpetuate the current status quo.

Khai: Quote: The Rebels are far too desperate and uncaring for civilian lives. I always find it hilarious how so many posters are willing to condemn the Rebels for simply fighting a war as it is meant to be fought against a callous and genocidal regime. The fact of the matter is that the Shapers took the fight to innocent Drayks and serviles during their purging and/or enslavement of anything considered to independent to live, both prior to the events on Sucia, during and after the events on Sucia, and during and after the events at Drypeak. Now they lure the fight to heavily populated areas in their own territory, showing little concern for their own civilians. And when put on the back foot, they are willing to mass produce their own insane creations to ravage the lands instead of negotiating a peace with those whom they have oppressed for centuries. This attitude is reflected in the Rebel ending for Geneforge 3, where the Shaper Council states that they will continue fighting against overwhelming odds, as even if the world is turned into a burnt husk, they will be masters of it. Some pro-Shaper loyalists would rationalize "By that stage, the worms are already out of the can, the Shapers are just making an already bad situation worse, who cares." No doubt that's true, but if you lose you lose, resorting to hiding behind hordes of mad creations and civilians in your own country while you fight, only so that you can retain your position of privilege over other life forms, is as petty and cowardly as you can get. What's the point of the Shapers even fighting at that stage? To preserve tyranny? To 'rule over a burnt husk'? To oppress those who simply want to 'be free' (or to exist, in the case of the Drayks/Drakons/Gazers)? This is why the humans in Geneforge seem like such ignorant scumbags. Very few of them will say "You retard Shapers, what on earth are you thinking? You created Drayks, Drakons, Eyebeasts and serviles, started a war with them, and now you're hiding behind us while they retaliate? WTF?! You are killing your own subjects you pompous arrogant airheads". No, instead the Rebellion is criticised for simply doing what is required to survive. They whine about the Rebellion because it does not inconvenience itself to not kill the 'civilians' of the enemy, despite the Shapers themselves clearly not caring about the welfare of their own subjects. This just confirms in my mind that any restraint on behalf of the Rebellion should not be expected, because there is very little sympathy for their cause amongst the ranks of Shapers and humans. This doesn't mean that the rebels should just give up and submit to being reabsorbed by their Shaper masters. Quite the contrary. It just means they shouldn't worry about killing civilians anymore, they can just loosen up on their moral rigidity and start fighting the war like wars are supposed to be fought. There's the enemy to Creation emancipation, wipe it out. No, it's not just the Shapers hiding behind their creations and Outsider subjects, it is every one of them, they are all enemies. The Outsider loyalist humans don't just supply the Shapers and fight in their army, they support Shaper idealogy, they support Shaper supremacy and exploitation of their creations. So there's no reason for the Drakons to neglect employing certain tactics which result in indiscriminant slaughter. They can release the Unbound with no qualms whatsoever.

Quote: Originally written by Xel'Raga: [QB]Creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought, Speculation. Quote: and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts. Really? Dryss (a Drakon) from the Taker Toll road in GF2: The PC: "That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ... Dryss: ""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into."; Issss-Ta (a Drayk), from Zhass-Usss in GF2: PC: "You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" Issss-Ta: "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves." Quote: It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them. False. Even the most anti-human of the Drakons didn't wish to engage in the extermination of homo sapiens. Quote: If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination. More speculation.

Wow, the robe is significantly better at reducing damage than the plate mail, by an average of 20 points. I just tested it against some guards.

I'm playing on Torment, btw: Steel Plate Mail: Prevents 1-40 + 2 damage. 25% attack penalty. Radiant Robe: Prevents 1-8 damage. 30% Protection from Melee Damage. 20% resistance to acid and magic damage. At first I thought that the steel plate mail would be superior, but the radiant robe has 30% protection from melee damage, which is huge (that's about 1/3 guaranteed reduction). Added to which, you don't get a reduction to attack penalty, and it's one seventh the weight of plate mail.

At two points in the Filth Factory, some reasonably good loot is blocked by Mossy Boulders, which can only be removed by Move Mountains Level 3. Such a thing doesn't make sense, since you can only get Lvl 3 Move Mountains muuucch later in the game. And it's not as if you can revisit the Filth Factory after clearing it...

Yeah, the occasional disease can be dealt with. Drat. Doesn't anyone have the stats for this armour?

The listed statistics for this armour seem awesome, but I've read elsewhere that it has 'unmentioned negative effects'. What are these unmentioned effects?

If you play through Geneforge 2, Jeff makes reference to 'the twisted trees which destroy buildings' in a very descriptive manner about 200 times before you reach the concealed tunnel. Perhaps he would have been better off writing descriptive monologues regarding cats, dogs, and defecation? "You reach the concealed tunnels, but realize that you have travelled for over a week without defecating. As you squat behind a twisted tre.. (doh, scratch that) bush and strain your bowels, you see a cat speed past you, being pursued by a dog. It does your heart good to know that pussy is abundant in this remote colony." Man, I'm so good. I think Jeff should hire me to write the script for his game, and he can just stick to the programming aspect.

Why don't we see the humans defecating in Geneforge?

Darkling: Quote: I really do not believe that any political things such as democrats have any correlation to Geneforge, why? I don't see how rebelling against a tyrannical government automatically makes one a radical left winger. Were the American revolutionaries Communists?

So you can get the satisfying feeling of terraforming entire zones like a 'true Shaper'?

Loyalists = Dirt cheap Tier 1 to Tier 3 creations (including Create Drayk). Awakened = Level 7 spells early in the game. Access to a few extra merchants and minor quests. Barzites = Access to Tier 4 creations and Level 7 spells, a few minor quests, and 7 extra potent canisters. Takers = Able to negotiate Taker lands and take their stuff for free, access to one extra minor quest, the Puresteel Soulblade, a wandmaker, and a cool joinable glowing drayk.

Usually I dump all the plot items/artifacts/collectables/so-so items that I don't have the heart to sell, at a friendly town's entrance, or near a merchant. If you do the same (I suspect a lot of people do), maybe you should go back and check your junk piles.

Geneforge 1 is by the far the best game, possibly a masterpiece of PC gaming. Geneforge 2 is a close second. Too bad it had that lame 'you have to train before using canisters to get maximum skill' mechanics. I wish someone would write a script to fix that.