Learned Noremac

More Ornks has been working better. 3-4 is what I've been going for at the moment with my current essence pool. You do still need them to be pretty buff, but I did notice spending essence on 3-4 Ornks results in Ornks about as strong as 2 Ornks with the same essence pool. Not much else to say. I've been going through the Power Core, and OH MY GOD I HATE IT. You have to go through in combat mode of course, and even when hasted, it takes an ETERNITY to get the Ornks through that stupid area. And then of course you forget to save, and randomly stumble into Reaper Turrets...ugh.

I'll have to check. I'm not sure if the 10-cap applies to a CREATION'S stats. It may just be that creations only gain health for every 2nd point, or even that only Ornks do, regardless of the level of the stat. It won't make a big difference either way--high HP is the only way to make your Ornks not die since they don't have any natural damage resistances or whatever. But if I see diminishing returns I may make more, less powerful Ornks. I wanted to stick with 2 most of the time in order to maximize my EXP gain, but whatever.

Update: This game doesn't really have many big boss fights, so sadly there aren't too many exciting tales to relate(it's still a super fun game, of course, it's just that I don't have much to tell YOU guys). But progress has been made. I have cleared the whole south coast of the island, save for the Guarded Docks at the end of the game. I have also gone as far north as Power Station, the area I'm currently ornking around in. I attempted to go through Patrol Bridge to get to Dig, but failed. Ornks can kick the asses of regular Sholai but the Reaper turrets and the Augmented Sholai are a bit too much. My Shaper gets one-shotted if he gets in range of the turrets, and he's my only character capable of attacking from a distance, and the Ornks die before getting close enough to attack because of the damn slow walking. So I'll have to see how that goes later. What I've been doing most of the time is making 2 super-buffed Ornks, and occasionally making 3 a-little-less-than-super-buffed Ornks. Any melee-based enemy is pretty easy to dispatch--once you remove slow walking from the equation, Ornks are fairly decent. Battle Alphas are fairly easy to deal with. Glaahks are a bit tough because of the stunning, and the lack of any inborn resistances mean Ornks always lose their turns if hit, but I've been able to manage by attacking the distracted Glaahks with my Shaper or having the Ornks pile on one target. It's also easier to deal with missile creations than I thought. Hasting does help but isn't actually MANDATORY--frequently the creations don't use all 3 of their extra action points to move away, so Ornks can still catch up to them and hit them. Incidentally, one thing I have noticed--creation endurance seems to only increase max health for every SECOND point of the stat. For example, there's no difference between the health of an Ornk with 20 endurance and 21 endurance. There is for 20 and 22 though. So when buffing them, make sure to end up with an even Endurance value. This is pretty damn easy for Ornks, thankfully, since they only get 1 stat per level. So a level 11 Ornk(which is what my stats get) will have 11 Endurance if not buffed.

The levels refer to how much you are afflicted with the status. Basically, it says for every status effect you receive there is a numerical value, and at the end of each round the value is reduced by 1. Once it hits 0, it wear off. Most of the stats simply last longer if at higher levels, except stunning which "cures" itself by eating one action point for each level you are stunned. That does seem to be accurate throughout the games. It explains Cure Effects sometimes not curing you, for example--if you have been hit a lot with poison, cure effects will remove a certain number of poison levels based on its spell strength, but it won't always remove all of them. It also seems to explain how "opposite" statuses try to remove each other--if you get cursed while having War Blessing, it will first remove levels of blessing before being able to afflict you with curse--I.e. if you have 11 levels of war blessing and get hit with an attack that inflicts 8 levels of curse, you go down to 3 war blessing, and thus it wears off faster. The question is whether blessing and curse are actually described accurately. If they are, it means that you'll do the most damage right after blessing yourself, and less as the fight wears on. Also, since you need at least 3 levels for either status to actually affect your attack strength, apparently the turn before the status wears off it has already stopped doing anything. I'd have to test it, but I haven't noticed that the statuses work this way in G1. I know for a fact that they don't in later games--even the instructions claim that you just get a fixed bonus/penalty to accuracy and damage. Might be worth making a thread on status effects and trying to fill in all this info...

I know this is true in the later games for sure, and I had thought it was true in this one, but I just was glancing at the instructions...and it explicitly states otherwise for War Blessing and Curse. It specifically says that for each 3 levels of War Blessing you have, your attack strength goes up by 1. I had always believed that Stunning was the only status where the level you had it at affected the severity of it, but it's odd...every other status description seems accurate, and except for stunning, they are described as simply having/not having the status, with status levels just affecting duration. Are the instructions just inaccurate? I'd never noticed that I did more damage if I blessed multiple times, but then again I never did try...

Update: Ornks are capable of clearing most of the areas surrounding Kazg. They stand a decent chance of taking on Battle Alphas and Glaahks so far--I've only fought a few here and there but I've managed. They do get killed pretty easily because they've got basically no natural armor, but Endurance works decently as a substitute. Starting to feel a lot more confident in general--I can consistently deal with rather large groups of decent creations--the 3 spawners in Tribal Woods, for example, were a breeze. Gonna clear a few more areas and then I will start attempting some northern sections. Not looking forward to dealing with those crazy Augmented Sholai, but ah well. Stat-wise, I've got a rather generous essence pool plus a decent Battle Shaping stat. I can make anywhere between 2 and 4 decently buffed up Ornks. My Shaper is rather squishy, so I really do have to depend on the Ornks for pretty much everything except turret fighting (which Melee creations are terrible at). But yeah, most things one shot me, so my opening turn usually consists of running in order to draw enemies into the Ornks. (G1 is particularly bad about having enemies single out your shaper, even passing up 4 Ornks to waste all their action points just running). Ornk slow walking is SUPER annoying. You cannot just click on a destination and expect your Shaper to stay in the back, and God help you when you want to leave an area. Once I even absorbed the Ornks when I was leaving because they were just taking too damn long to get the area barrier.

Quick question: I know that there is a Luck trainer in the game (I think Dig is his name?). Will he still train me if I have 0 luck, or will I need to manually increase it once? I only ask because I'm near the Stone Circles and have a stray skill point that I'd rather save, but if I have to use it anyway...

Small update. I have cleared The Tombs, the vlish woods near pentil, the cryoa spawners near Pentil, and one of the northern areas with all the searing artilas. Thahd Shades and Searing Artilas are tough but the Ornks so far are suprisingly up to the task. I have yet to raise my Intelligence stat--I am currently seeing it as more efficient to raise battle shaping. 6 Skill points a level means I can get 2 points of it, which translates to 2 points of strength and endurance for each Ornk--a single point of Intelligence would give me more essence, but not enough to do that. I probably will increase it soon though, as the blessing spells have a demanding essence cost and I'd eventually like to be walking around with 7 super buffed Ornks.

There is one thing I want to confirm--when you say that Battle Shaping "caps out" at 10, does this mean that I cannot naturally rise the stat higher than this, or that creations will not get more than 10 bonus levels from the shaping stat? Because if the latter, that doesn't seem accurate...when I use the Geneforge, I've gone over 10 and they got a bonus from it...

That particular fight does promise to be one of the most hilarious things I've ever done in the game. This is why I'm glad I picked G1 for this. The bridge between Ornks and Drayks is shorter than the bridge between Ornks and Drakons, in terms of power level, and it's not as though Ornks have gotten more powerful in later games. Heck, in G5 they cost 15 essence instead 8 for absolutely no goddamn reason. (Thahds still cost 8) Blessing is essentially mandatory, particularly hasting for big battles with missile creations. But yes, aside from healing them I am still firebolting things here and there--usually things that would take the Ornks a round or two to reach. That said, even without War Blessing, the Ornks are one shotting most of the early game's baddies.

Update: I FINALLY GOT THE CANISTER. But holy hell was it difficult. Servile Warren may be built for sneaking IN THEORY, but in practise, it's like the hardest stealth game you've ever played on crack. They do have patrol patterns, but finding the safe distance to watch from is tricky, and you still do need to kill a few of them silently in order to sneak through. I died a LOT, killed the Spectral Vlish, beat the Burning Turrets, and got to the door...only to find that it required 30 living tools (mechanics is 5) rather than the 20 I assumed I'd need. So I had to sneak back out, bring 10 more tools (which meant carrying nothing but my armor and the tools), come back, THEN get the canister, then sneak out again. Sheesh. Still, I did not have to turn the difficulty down. With the help of Ornks, I cleared the Ruined School, killed the Bandits, cleared Watchill, and cleared Crag Valley, all without too much difficulty. A hasted Ornk took out Rawbone in one hit and they one shot essentially everything in the school, which is surprising given that I still haven't increased Battle Shaping (still waiting for my next level up). All I did was buff their strength and endurance a little bit. They have some difficulty with Artilas in Crag Valley, but otherwise things have been going pretty damn well. My sights are currently set on clearing the Spiral Burrow, and after that doing some of the Pentil quests.

Update: I have gotten much closer to the canister. I made it to Pentil and have crossed Northbridge successfully, and I made it through the Buried Cells. I didn't get the Speed canister in the cells, so I'm going to double back, but I'm not confident that it is gettable, since the Spectral Vlish in that area is fast and one-shots me. Thankfully, it is NOT necessary for getting past the Searing Artila, since Searer one shots them and they are actually designed to be evadable(since they send out "patrols"). It will be necessary for making Ornks not suck, though, since it will be too easy for missile creations to outrun them without extra AP. (Is Speed a group spell in G1?) Interestingly, it is actually easier to enter Pentil by sneaking through the area to the south and just sticking to the edges. Even with leadership, the assault on the West Gate is actually pretty damn difficult--if you don't have War Blessing, the serviles get massacred by the Artilas, so you'll need to buy the canister from the servile in Vakkiri or else use Leadership to make her give it to you. I have enough Leadership to get into Kazg, but I'm going to try getting some EXP from The Tombs first. I have determined, sadly, that I won't be able to get all the juicy stat boosts that area offers, because the Thahd Shades are too tough to get past (and thus I can't get the amulet). Unstable Roamers, however, are an easy source of cheap experience. I have Terror but have no idea how effective it will be. Currently I can kill anything if I can hit it (and I swear to God it seems like 80% accuracy in this game is treated as 50% accuracy) in one shot, so I have focused on using stealth to make sure that I'm only ever in one on one fights, but I'm going to depend on Terror as soon as I can't do this.

I think you end up getting to be a VERY high level by the end of G5. I just finished a Hard Mode playthrough as an Agent and was approaching level 50 by the end of the game, so don't be surprised to find yourself leveling up very frequently.

Are you SERIOUSLY advocating approaching the giant pig brain without ANY pigs of my own? The very idea! Seriously though, thanks, but I will try and wait on clearing that area until I can get the Ornks. The only reason I'm popping my head in is that I recall being able to get Chitin Armor in there, and it occurs to me that I probably need a better piece of chest armor than a Tunic.

The non combat thing is interesting, but I don't know how practical it could be outside of maybe just 1 or 2 variant creations. The difficulty is that, except for the tier 4 and 5 creations which seem explicitly created for combat purposes, we do actually see some of the "war" creations being multi purpose. For example, Vlish can control other creations, there's some mention of Thahds being used for manual labour (i.e. that would be too heavy for serviles), and so forth--the thing to do would be to find applications of the existing creations that we could actually use. I could totally see Vlish giving some boost to mental resistance. You wouldn't even need a variant one, necessarily. One thing I would like to see is a Spellcraft-like stat for Shaping. A lot of players want to use all the creation types, myself included, despite specializing generally being a choice the game rewards more. A stat that simply raised the level of any type of creation by 1 would be pretty workable, and work the same way as Spellcraft--make it more expensive and not tied to actually being able to make certain types, and you're set.

So I did manage to get some time in to start this. Apparently I haven't played since the most recent patch, since I don't remember the "Quiet Shade" or "Strange Roamer" from the tutorial areas. The former surprised me and got away, but I made sure to kill the latter for EXP. I also killed all the Ornks, because when I rule the world, ALL the planet's Ornks will be under my control. Any others must be eliminated. Initially spent just on Leadership and Spellcraft. The leadership helps as it increases the number of Vakkiri quests, and thus experience, you can do without fighting anything--getting both the EXP for the bandits and the knife, along with exposing the Taker spy, helped level me up a fair bit. I have not yet increased Battle Shaping, but Shapers actually START with 2 Battle Shaping here. That said, I can guarantee that you don't need more than 1 Battle Shaping to make them, since that's what I get as an Agent and I've always been able to make them. I am also fairly sure that you can make them even with 0 Battle Shaping. I cannot ABSOLUTELY remember doing this, but I'm fairly sure I've done so in the past. That's the best I can do about answering that question. I have decent accuracy and was able to kill everything in the Bandit Woods, minus the bandits, in one hit with Firebolt. I also managed to sneak through Watchill pretty easily--I have noticed that, while the game does not exactly have a "stealth" mechanic, your range of vision is slightly larger than enemy's ranges of vision. This helps even when I'm intending to fight something, as ideally I don't want to fight more than one guy at a time. I've considered making my way into Pentil, but I think I will pop into the Ruined School for some better armor. Either that, or I'll just steal the Chainmail Vest the Vakkiri shopkeep has on display but refuses to sell.

I should note that I aim to avoid any big "bossy" fights entirely until I get Ornks. I did plan to join the Awakened in the first place but I'm not going to do the Spiral Burrow before I get Ornks, and while I might ENTER the school, I don't intend to beat Rawbone. Regarding living tools--I've been informed by Triumph that there is a bugged "unlimited" living tool in some area near Pentil. If I need to use this bug, I will, but ONLY for the purposes of getting the Ornk canister. And ideally, if I just save the living tools, I should be able to open the door without doing this.

Thanks for all the advice guys! When I get to this playthrough I'll let you know how it goes. Also, I don't object to being good at battle magic--what I meant was I'm not allowed to just treat this as a "creation less Shaper" playthrough. And just so I understand, once I have 10 battle shaping they stop getting bonus levels? Hm, I guess that means late game I'll have to make up for it by spending a lot of essence on stat boosts. Thanks for the northbridge tip! I thought both bridges demanded turret fights, that makes things a little easier.

So, I'm going to attempt to play through Geneforge 1 with a fun little twist, and I'd like to use this thread to get advice and support from people. Basically, this will a playthrough in which there will be many, many, many Ornks. Rules for this Playthrough -I must play as a Shaper -The only creation type I am allowed to make is the Ornk -I cannot play the character like an Agent--this means I must actually invest in Shaping skills so that I actually use Ornks as my primary means of combat prowess. -The difficulty will be set to Tricky. -Because the Ornk canister is difficult to access, as an absolute last resort, the difficulty may be turned down in order to allow access to the Ornk canister. Once the canister has been obtained and I have returned to Vakkiri, however, the difficulty must stay at Tricky. Relevant Ornk facts -The Ornk canister is located in the Servile Warren at the east end of the island -Ornks have only a melee attack, which according to the G2 FAQ is slightly stronger than the Fyora's melee attack. -Ornks have the "ability" to walk very slowly. They still use up action points at the same speed. -Ornks have the lowest "courage" of any creation the player can make, according to the G2 FAQ. It's not 100% clear what courage does, but it probably has to do with fleeing/going rogue. -Ornks are considered Battle Shaping creations, though I believe they can be made with 0 Battle Shaping skill regardless. Expect this stat to get whored. -Ornks are delicious, look like pigs, and moo like cows. The power of these abilities is not to be underestimated. My plan so far is to go through the tutorial areas, then do some minor Vakkiri quests to boost my level a tiny bit(anything combat oriented is out, though). Then, I will attempt to sneak all the way across the island to the Servile Warren in order to get the canister. I aim to avoid combat whenever possible, which hopefully will be most of the time. At that point I'll head back to Vakkiri and play the game as normal. My current planned route has me going along the southern areas to Southbridge, through Kazg Ruins into the Warren. My main concerns at the moment is Southbridge itself--I don't believe that there's any way to not fight those turrets, but I'm hoping that careful positioning can help me fight them 1 at a time. Alternatively, I may try hasting myself and running across the bridge in 1 round, but my guess is that the bridge will be too long for this. According to the FAQ, Kazg Ruins people will not attack me if I don't attack them, though they will be hostile--I hope this is true, but if it's not, Serviles are easy to outrun because they have slow walking. The Warren itself is also a problem--if I remember correctly, the area is designed with Guardian Roamer "patrols" that in theory should be avoidable with stealth, but according to the FAQ there's a Spectral Vlish at the end. So I will have to defeat that somehow, or else avoid it. Any advice is appreciated. Right now I am conflicted as to how to spend the skill points before I get to the Warren--should I not get any Battle Shaping until I get the canister? I should note I may not get to this for a few days regardless.

Yeah, once I finish my current run of G5, I'm gonna try this in G1. My guess is that I can probably avoid most fights or something and run for it really early--ideally I don't want to do any major quests without Ornks. I'm a little worried about the Servile Warren itself, but I suppose I can turn it down to Easy just until I get the canister if it really is too difficult. But that's a last resort. I really would prefer to do this in #1 since you can really whore Battle Shaping since the cost won't increase at higher levels. I don't intend to just be a Shaper that's more heavily invested in Battle Magic than usual. These are gonna be some INTENSE Ornks.

Hmm...I didn't think I could reach G1's, but you're right actually. I might be able to sneak around the zones and avoid combat. My only concern is getting the Living Tools. G2 might be easier since the adjacent zone is a town, and it has Daze, so I can theoretically just daze things and book it whenever I come into combat.

Let's say, theoretically, I wanted to try playing through one of the games as a Shaping heavy class but only making Ornks. Which of the games, if any, could I get access to the Ornk canister early on? I figure 1 and 5 are out, but I cannot remember where the others are.

I thought there were no trainers for G1? Except for stats, I mean.

I think Rawal's journal in G5 says the player was found in the Drypeak Mountains initially. Which opens at least the possibility that you're someone from or connected to G2.

Oh! I want a Pyroroamer buff. That explosion needs to do way more damage--I think it makes more sense to look at them as "spells" than creations, in terms of balance. I'm spending 15 essence on a fireball that can bite people...it seems to me that it shouldn't do barely any damage on detonation.