Aoslare

Shadow47 = Ed.

I've just started it and it's going great. Well, mostly great. Thorn batons don't kill anything, and I'm very low on javelins. Icy crystals, on the other hand, are AMAZING. Now I know how you felt when you first ran the missile guardian. I'm up to about 9 Dex and 6 Luck. The only other stat I pumped was a few obligatory points into Mechanics. Weak enemies rarely hit me. Stronger ones do hit. I do well when I use crystals, or bless and shield. I have problems when I don't. I need more javelins and more wands of fire. (Never thought I'd say that.) I think the key is going to be being very careful about what order I complete areas in. A difference of 2 levels is HUGE, and I can't go after enemies much stronger than I am -- I have to be patient. I'm not used to that so much. I'm looking forward to getting some better equipment, maybe on Harmony. That will definitely make things easier.

DeVlish is right. I've already typed reams on this. Look for the Guardian vs. Agent thread. Guardians are only better melee fighters if you are going to ignore magic entirely, and if you do that, you will die, period -- and even then they are only mildly better at melee.

(Goal: Keep enemy hit percentage at 1%.) Here's another build thought. This came out of my singleton build for A4, which relied on Dex, Gymnastics, Luck, and Enduring Shield to boost my dodge chances to obscene levels. At first glance, this seems more difficult in Geneforge, since you don't have the Gymnastics or Defense skills, which tended to contribute about 50% and 30% dodge bonuses, respectively, to my A4 build. However, Geneforge offers several advantages. 1) The Dex and Luck bonuses do not go to 50% power after 10 points. (YAY!) 2) Geneforge has the power of the Tiny Orbs of Mist! Used to enhance armor, they give the "Harder to Hit" bonus, which gives you a 5% bonus to dodge. There is also the usual selection of equipment and charms that naturally boost Dex, Luck, and Spellcraft. 3) Unlike in Avernum, the magical shield doesn't get weaker over time (within the same area, of course). 4) Your enemies make very few area of effect attacks. Those can't be dodged, and at the end of A4 there are lots of those. 5) Unlike in Avernum, most magical attacks get a bonus to hit of 10% or 20%. In Avernum, they tended to get a bonus of 40% or greater. But here's the best part. Since you are putting lots of points into Dex and Spellcraft anyway, you end up being quite good with missiles and at least passable with spells -- so you're not playing a gimpy character at all. Here's a rundown of dodging bonuses available: 5%/pt Dexterity 2%/pt Luck 5%/item with Tiny Orb of Mist enhancement 10% flat bonus for Protection ~10% flat bonus for Essence Shield ~18% flat bonus for Essence Armor (not cumulative with Shield) ~1-2%/pt Blessing Magic ~1-2%/pt Spellcraft ~1-2%/pt Essence Shield/Armor As in Avernum, this is tremendously easy to pull off on lower difficulties -- the enemies are lower level, so they have naturally lower hit percentages -- but I think it can be done on Torment, too.

The teleporter in Olgai won't work unless you have registered the game. It tells you that, of course.

Quote: Originally written by MagmaDragoon: like medieval duels (except when there are packs of enemyes) So basically, not like medieval duels at all.

Again, the Guardian is slightly better than the Agent at melee skills, and purely in terms of skills themselves, he is very mildly better than the Shaper (but not, in fact, the Agent) at missile weapons. The problem is that spells are invaluable support no matter WHAT your primary offensive strategy is, and the Guardian is left behind rather royally when it comes to accessing spells. In my mind, the problem isn't that the Guardian is too weak, it's that support spells are too important and too powerful.

Although I think importing characters in Avernum would be an awful idea, it is pretty common among Avernum's closest relatives in the RPG family. Besides Might and Magic, this was a feature of the Wizardry series (cited by Jeff as a major influence) and the AD&D Gold Box games. I want to say the Bard's Tale also did this, but I can't remember.

Guardians got weaker, but it's not as bad as you suggest. Quote: Originally written by Maxmillion: In G3, melee was shafted, along with parry, so the hardcore, torment playing people used missiles. Average melee damage got reduced from 4.5 per die to 2.5 per die, but almost every magic and missile attack (shaper or creation) got reduced as well, albeit by less. Melee damage is still easier to pump, as you have two stats (Str + Melee) in addition to Quick Action, whereas spells and missile have just the two stats. Plus, high level melee weapons have base damage that adds many dice on. Spells don't -- at all -- and missiles have the drawback of having to carry and stock them. For that matter, spells have the drawback of having to pump Intelligence and keep leftover essence in addition to pumping the spell skills. Also, note that since ALL melee attacks were weakened, but armor and HP levels were not, this also made it significantly less dangerous for the Guardian to stand out in the front lines, where he is most effective. Finally, Parry was not shafted, it was just UNbroken. It's still a powerful skill. Quote: Now, as detailed in the deadeye shaper thread, even the shaper is better ultimately in the end at missles than the Gaurdian. The Shaper is NOT better at missiles in the end than the Guardian is. Period. The build may be better overall, but that's just because creations are powerful -- and that's part of Geneforge; it's been that way since the beginning. Quote: The creatures that the gaurdian can shape are weak and die easily, Uhh... is this a joke? It's true that if you're going to rely on shaping, you may as well be a Shaper. But Guardians are not significantly worse than shapers at it. If you pump one shaping stat, a Guardian will be 1-2 points behind a Shaper for the same investment of skill points. Since the shaping skills became extremely uneconomical once they get to 10, what this means in practice is just that a Guardian will spend 10 skill points more than a shaper would to make the same creations. If he spends those ten extra skill points, his creations will be EXACTLY THE SAME as a Shaper's. Guardians do get 75% the essence of a Shaper, but since they have trouble accessing spells, they are unlikely to use as much, anyway. Lack of spells makes it harder to support their creations, but that's a separate problem. The real problem is as follows: Melee + Creations is a much less effective combination than either Spells + Creations or Melee + Spells, and the Shaper and Agent obviously do the latter two better. Since Melee + Creations is the definition of the Guardian, there isn't much to do about this one.

Well, who else is there to use? Litalia's gone either way. Rahul's clearly not mobile, and the drakons are a big load of boring. Anyway, it seems more reasonable to take the Shaper ending, as that includes less power escalation for either side of the war. The more power escalation there is, the harder it is to come up with any kind of middle ground route.

Jeff has already said that G4 will include more major NPCs reprising their roles than previous games did. Khyryk is the most obvious choice for one of these, by far.

Quote: Originally written by Spidweb: Geneforge 4 will have the rebel and Shaper paths, but, farther in, another path appears. It's hard to find and takes sacrifice, but there is an out to the whole situation. But it is not painless. *cheering* I don't suppose this path is one that you actually have to figure out for yourself, rather than just being directed to do A, B, and C by some kind of Bob figure? One of the things that I will always remember about Exile II was the sense of triumph it was repeatedly able to evoke. Seeing Prossis's face light up was meaningful -- after the trauma of going through the Black Waters, being coldly received by the Vahnatai, and being subjected to scrying. And the major quests, those were not simple "go here and fight boss X" quests, they were involved. Completing them required interacting with a diverse number of the people of Exile. It required figuring out what was going on, gathering information, and positioning myself in a key position to do something that could actually have a far-ranging impact. And they had a meaningful impact. I replayed the game for probably the sixth time last year, and reading the ending dialogue STILL made me smile. Obviously things are different with the moral ambiguity of Geneforge, which was almost totally absent from Exile. But G1 and G2 both managed to maintain some of this sense. The problem with G3, for me, was not that there was no "right" way to act. That's refreshingly realistic. The problem was that there was no really successful way to act. Sacrifice is good and well, but it should have a point to it. Deciding to destroy or repair the spawners in the cave at the end of the island several islands in a row and then assassinating one leader or another, without having much effect on the war... it's just not a rewarding play experience for me. Anyway, this was not intended to be a criticism of G3, so much as an exhortation to make the player's actions interesting and meaningful, as well as painful.

The poison attack isn't that powerful. The poisoning is comparable to a Venom Baton, and the attack itself is comparable to a regular Vlish attack -- except it doesn't slow. The real problem is that Terror Vlish cost three times as much as regular Vlish. They are a few levels higher, but they also have a reduced attack bonus, so they aren't really any more powerful. The one thing they have going for them, IMHO, is that their attack does poison-elemental damage -- it's not just a physical attack that also poisons. This is useful against a few enemies, like mages and gazers, that resist most forms of attack, but not poison.

There seems to be a rough consensus that Khyryk is the best part of G3. His dialog options are great. They also are very different from the standard iloveserviles vs. ihateserviles options. They aren't even on the same continuum. Include more of those, by all means!

Quote: Originally written by Last Flowers xx: the Shaper has the potential to be as good as an Agent in terms of magic. This is simply not true. An Agent will always be a few points ahead of a Shaper (given the same skill point investment) in each spell skill AND in spellcraft -- about 4-5 points ahead total once you've plugged a few levels in. Agents also get 50% more spell energy, which helps with the upper level spells.

Hurray! Honestly, the dialogue choices weren't much worse in G3 than in previous games. And I liked them in G1. It's just that longtime Geneforge fans found themselves answering the same questions for the kazillionth time. Hurray!

The formulas for damage and hit rate for ANY type of attack made by any character are very simple. Base hit rate is determined by type of attack and has mostly stayed the same throughout G1-3. Basic rule of thumb: 60% physical, 60% fire, 70% magic/acid, 80% ice. Then add 5% per point of attack bonus. Enemy ability to dodge can affect this, I believe reducing it by 5% per point of Dexterity -- not sure. Base damage is attack specific, with an additional amount per level of attack bonus. In G3, Firebolt has a base of 1-4 and gets an additional 1-3 per level of attack bonus. The enemy's armor or resistance is then applied to the total amount rolled. To get your attack bonus: PC Melee attacks: Bonus = Strength + Melee Weapons + Level of equipped weapon PC Missile attacks: Bonus = Dexterity + Missile Weapons + Level of item used PC Magic attacks: Bonus = Spellcraft + Battle Magic + Spell Skill Creation attacks (melee OR missile): Bonus = Strength + Appropriate attack Skill Attack skill is a hidden stat, but it is generally in line with creation power level. Not always, though -- Fyoras have a better melee attack skill than Plated Bugs do. Note that the descriptions for many of the stats involved are inaccurate in both the manual and the game. Strength and Dexterity come to mind. Also, note that the attractive thing about missile weapons is that they tend to have higher base levels compared to spell skill. They won't be scaled back anytime soon, though. They are -- at best -- mildly more powerful than magic, but they have the huge restriction of being limited to what items you collect and save. Reapers are nice, but even they are typically weaker than a Gazer.

So, after being inspired to start up another G3 game, I was poking around the scripts, looking at how the game balance has changed. I didn't realize just how widespread the changes have been. It's not just melee weapons that were weakened. Here's a list of damage per level across games: Code: G1 G2 G31-6 1-4 1-3 Firebolt, Fiery Wand (Fyora)1-6 1-6 1-6 (Drayk)1-7 1-5 1-4 Searer (Artila/Roamer)1-5 1-6 1-5 Ice Spray, Icy Crystal (Cryoa/Cryodrayk)1-8 1-4 1-5 Searing Orbs, Spray Crystal (Drakon)1-8 1-6 1-6 Diamond Spray, Swarm Crystal, Jeweled Wand (Ur-Drakon)1-5 1-5 1-5 (Vlish) 1-12 1-10 Kill (Gazer) 1-12 1-10 Aura of Flames (Eyebeast)1-8 1-8 1-4 Regular melee attack1-3 1-5 1-4 Vlish melee attack 1-5 Alwan's melee attack1-5 1-6 1-3 Thorn Baton1-6 1-6 1-3 Venom Baton1-8 1-5 1-3 Acid Baton1-10 1-7 1-3 Submission Baton1-14 1-10 1-12 Reaper Baton1-6 1-5 1-4 Javelin1-16 1-12 1-8 Discipline Wand1-5 1-4 1-4 Terror Wand1-5 1-4 1-4 Ensnaring Crystal, Null Wand Spells and creation attacks were also weakened (especially compared to G1), though melee weapons took the worst hit. This brings up a few interesting points. For one thing, whatever effect the weakening of melee has had on guardians, it's completely nerfed most battle creations. If you look at their stats, Clawbugs and Battle Alphas are pretty much complete crap next to comparable Magic and Fire creations, despite being more expensive -- and that was much less true when physical attacks hit harder. Thahds get a HP bonus that's noticeable early and Rotghroths get bonuses to strength and quick action, though they still don't impress me. This also reveals just how Vlish became so overpowered. Originally, all their attacks were noticably weaker than those of a Fyora of comparable level; that was to make up for the powerful slowing effect. Now their melee attack is on par with a Clawbug's, while their missile attack is stronger than a Roamer's, and as good as Ice Spray with a more consistent crippling effect. Drayks have also gotten somewhat better. Reapers are spectacularly good in G3. I knew that, I just didn't realize how good.

They have neither the sprawling, messy power of a shaper, nor the elegant efficiency of an agent. Of course, if this poll had happened after G2, guardians would have gotten lots of votes, thanks to being broken.

I agree with most of what's been said, but I want to point out that the first two games were a lot better on this front. The Awakened were crazy in G2, sure, but not in G1. G1 also had some respectable Sholai. In G2, there was a non-aligned option. Although it was never explicitly outlined, it had its own ending, and I found playing it quite satisfying. Also, I think it's interesting that Jeff has only made ONE game in the past decade that hasn't made you pick sides, and that was arguably Jeff's least-plotful game -- Avernum 4. (The lack of picking sides in the other Avernums was predetermined based on Exile.) Nethergate and G1-3 make you pick, as does one of the mainline scenarios in BoE/BoA.

Quote: Originally written by The Worst Man Ever: Quote: Originally written by Spidweb: You can't win an argument with a customer. Having to win an argument with a customer is usually a pretty sound sign you're doing something wrong, isn't it? Clearly, you have never worked in business, or any kind of service occupation for that matter. There are plenty of changes Jeff has made in the past ten years that I don't agree with. But even by my standards, he still does a better job than pretty much anyone else out there. There are people who are much more deserving of whining and moaning than he is.

There are still a bunch of Exile series pages out there. Do a google search.

Quote: Originally written by Zeviz: More seriously, effective builds depend on difficulty and what game you are talking about. This is of course very true. I meant to imply G3, and I certainly meant to imply higher difficulty level. On Easy and Normal pretty much any character can be successful. That's nice, because it allows you to be flexible and try stuff out and have fun, but it also makes this kind of list pointless. So let's stick to G3, tougher difficulties.

*nod* Normally, I would never advocate such a tactic. However, it is actually pretty useful as a singleton on Torment. As a singleton, coming up with the gold to train is no problem whatsoever. And as a singleton on Torment, every skill point you get is critical -- there are basically none to spare.

*nod* Normally, I would never advocate such a tactic. However, it is actually pretty useful as a singleton on Torment. As a singleton, coming up with the gold to train is no problem whatsoever. And as a singleton on Torment, every skill point you get is critical -- there are basically none to spare.