Men are from Slars

Synergy, you and I are following almost exactly the same game plan! It's almost as if we were discussing this before we started playing... heh. I am just around Draco at the moment, and I'll probably progress more slowly since the maps are all new to me. I have to say, I am really astonished by how powerful First Aid is. I only have 6 points and yet my SP get refilled at a very pleasing pace. Oh yeah, I made a new party with 68 points of First Aid as a test, and didn't get any more effect than usual from rats... so it seems there's a creature-specific cap. That would have been a real sad skill to be broken, eh?

OS X is a good thing. After the time I refused to upgrade to System 7, I've learned to be receptive to new OS's, if nothing else.

The other option I've considered is to only allow myself saves in friendly territory, much like some console RPGs. That way I can still reset if I need to, but I can't (not efficiently anyway) force a battle to go well by reloading when it doesn't.

The other option I've considered is to only allow myself saves in friendly territory, much like some console RPGs. That way I can still reset if I need to, but I can't (not efficiently anyway) force a battle to go well by reloading when it doesn't.

Yeah, but this quote tag takes up so much space... I know, I know, I'm a real minimalist Luddite. You should have seen how long it took for me to be willing to switch my monitor resolution up to 800x600.

Total non non sequitur, Alorael. And if there are other places, they aren't in Ex1 or 2. I just did a batch find of the resource fork with all the dialogue. Edit: Personally I'm not a fan of making long threads longer by quoting passages that are already in the thread, one screen up. But -- when in Rome, as they say

*nod* Playing Angband that way doesn't really bother me -- you just have to learn to be cautious. For the majority of the game, keeping the right items on hand (2 Staffs of Teleportation and a big pile of Cure Critical Wounds potions) will do it. Playing Avernum that way would be a lot harder. The auto-resurrect helps a lot, and maybe it could be done on Easy. But without some kind of teleportation ability, it's too easy to get into an unexpectedly bad, and unescapable situation -- and unlike Angband you can't really boost your power level without progressing further into the game.

*nod* Playing Angband that way doesn't really bother me -- you just have to learn to be cautious. For the majority of the game, keeping the right items on hand (2 Staffs of Teleportation and a big pile of Cure Critical Wounds potions) will do it. Playing Avernum that way would be a lot harder. The auto-resurrect helps a lot, and maybe it could be done on Easy. But without some kind of teleportation ability, it's too easy to get into an unexpectedly bad, and unescapable situation -- and unlike Angband you can't really boost your power level without progressing further into the game.

Gordon in Exile I says: "The Nepharim. It's weird. They're like Nephilim, have Nephilim mothers, but something makes some of them come out bigger, and meaner, and mostly sterile." Awrrm in Exile II says: "Nepharim not all bad, but these should die. Nepharim like what you humans call mules, bigger than us and sterile. These mules hate us and enslave us." That's it though. I think the implication of demonic or divine origin comes more from the name 'nephilim.' See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

I dunno, Erika's obsession with revenge isn't very munchkinny. She's too involved in things. You want munchkin, I think Garzahd is a better example, plating himself up the way he did. I am always tempted to play these games without ever reloading saves when something bad happens. That increases the challenge quite a bit, and suddenly all those magical items that never seemed useful become life-savers. And it really reduces the munchkin factor: Red Mage: "Given that I can only cast a certain number of spells per day, if I were to cast one now I would then become less versatile." Black Mage: "If you don't cast one now, then you'll become less alive."

I dunno, Erika's obsession with revenge isn't very munchkinny. She's too involved in things. You want munchkin, I think Garzahd is a better example, plating himself up the way he did. I am always tempted to play these games without ever reloading saves when something bad happens. That increases the challenge quite a bit, and suddenly all those magical items that never seemed useful become life-savers. And it really reduces the munchkin factor: Red Mage: "Given that I can only cast a certain number of spells per day, if I were to cast one now I would then become less versatile." Black Mage: "If you don't cast one now, then you'll become less alive."

Cranking every spell to the max may not be min/maxing, but your mages certainly sound a little bit munchkin themselves ...anyway, isn't the whole point of Torment that you HAVE to try and optimize as much as possible? If I were really going for RP I think I'd have to start pulling out the disadvantages. Brittle Bones = golden RP opportunity.

Cranking every spell to the max may not be min/maxing, but your mages certainly sound a little bit munchkin themselves ...anyway, isn't the whole point of Torment that you HAVE to try and optimize as much as possible? If I were really going for RP I think I'd have to start pulling out the disadvantages. Brittle Bones = golden RP opportunity.

I was pleased to see that the dialog engine recognized there was a nephil in the party. I don't remember if previous Avernums did that. It's too bad it still can't account for a party with all nephils -- I imagine a number of npcs might react rather differently. It was always funny playing Exile II with a singleton slith party and reading all the comments that didn't apply at all.

Based on the trainer prices I dug up, I'm changing my strategy. I'm going to avoid as many trainable skills as possible, instead relying on trait bonuses with Str and Dex for weapon damage. For the tank this will be relatively easy, since Strength, Dex, and Gymnastics are all untrainable. The mages can start training pretty soon, just after Cotra, and since the Spells skills aren't trainable I'll just diversify those a bit earlier. And picking up Luck earlier is probably a good idea anyway. I'm less sure what to do about the archer's archery -- can I get by on traits? At level 6 I'll have 3 bows and 5 sharpshooter... maybe pumping dex alone will be sufficient. The other question is Lore and First Aid, which are worse values...

Based on the trainer prices I dug up, I'm changing my strategy. I'm going to avoid as many trainable skills as possible, instead relying on trait bonuses with Str and Dex for weapon damage. For the tank this will be relatively easy, since Strength, Dex, and Gymnastics are all untrainable. The mages can start training pretty soon, just after Cotra, and since the Spells skills aren't trainable I'll just diversify those a bit earlier. And picking up Luck earlier is probably a good idea anyway. I'm less sure what to do about the archer's archery -- can I get by on traits? At level 6 I'll have 3 bows and 5 sharpshooter... maybe pumping dex alone will be sufficient. The other question is Lore and First Aid, which are worse values...

I went and dug this up with a little cut-and-paste research. In case it's useful to someone else starting out, these seem to be the best training options. COTRA Arcane Lore @ 1000 (1000 ea) Spellcraft @ 2000 (666 ea) First Aid @ 800 (800 ea) Magery @ 1500 (375 ea?) DUVNO Nature Lore @ 1120 (1120 ea) SILVAR Melee, pole @ 1800 (450 ea) Hardiness @ 1800 (1800 ea) Defense @ 1800 (900 ea) Quick Strike @ 1800 (600 ea) Quick Action @ 1800 (1800 ea) Parry @ 1800 (? ea) Blademaster @ 1800 (600 ea?) ALMARIA Tool Use @ 2800 (2800 ea) CAMP SAMUELS Bows @ 960 (240 ea) Throws @ 800 (200 ea) Sharpshooter @ 800 (266 ea?) FORT REMOTE Resistance @ 1800 (? ea) Magical Efficiency @ 2400 (? ea) The per-point cost is really the important part, for any skills you would be training in anyway. I've heard there's less surplus gold in A4, so I'm trying to figure out the right balance to strike... Magery and Spellcraft are no-brainers. Bows and archery are no-brainers for anyone who's not a dedicated archer -- given their high value they are even tempting for a main archer. Melee is also tempting, and I think with the right combination of traits even doable. Defense, Parry, and Blademaster are probably doable as well. Quick Strike is a no-brainer, as is Resistance. Tool Use is useless, Quick Action and Hardiness are questionable at best. I'm not sure about the Lores and First Aid. Untrainable skills: Str/Dex/Int/End, Luck, Mage Spells, Priest Spells, Gymnastics Riposte, Anatomy, Lethal Blow have trainable prereqs

I went and dug this up with a little cut-and-paste research. In case it's useful to someone else starting out, these seem to be the best training options. COTRA Arcane Lore @ 1000 (1000 ea) Spellcraft @ 2000 (666 ea) First Aid @ 800 (800 ea) Magery @ 1500 (375 ea?) DUVNO Nature Lore @ 1120 (1120 ea) SILVAR Melee, pole @ 1800 (450 ea) Hardiness @ 1800 (1800 ea) Defense @ 1800 (900 ea) Quick Strike @ 1800 (600 ea) Quick Action @ 1800 (1800 ea) Parry @ 1800 (? ea) Blademaster @ 1800 (600 ea?) ALMARIA Tool Use @ 2800 (2800 ea) CAMP SAMUELS Bows @ 960 (240 ea) Throws @ 800 (200 ea) Sharpshooter @ 800 (266 ea?) FORT REMOTE Resistance @ 1800 (? ea) Magical Efficiency @ 2400 (? ea) The per-point cost is really the important part, for any skills you would be training in anyway. I've heard there's less surplus gold in A4, so I'm trying to figure out the right balance to strike... Magery and Spellcraft are no-brainers. Bows and archery are no-brainers for anyone who's not a dedicated archer -- given their high value they are even tempting for a main archer. Melee is also tempting, and I think with the right combination of traits even doable. Defense, Parry, and Blademaster are probably doable as well. Quick Strike is a no-brainer, as is Resistance. Tool Use is useless, Quick Action and Hardiness are questionable at best. I'm not sure about the Lores and First Aid. Untrainable skills: Str/Dex/Int/End, Luck, Mage Spells, Priest Spells, Gymnastics Riposte, Anatomy, Lethal Blow have trainable prereqs

Here's what I'm currently running, with some explanation I left out before. I suspect my opinions may change by the time I finish -- unlike the rest of you, I have the disadvantage of not having seen anything past Fort Draco! Thing -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Elite Warrior Human Torch -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Deadeye Invisible Girl -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Pure Spirit Mr. Fantastic -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Natural Mage (Hey... I had to explain those creepy spandex outfits somehow! Poo is right.) I have restricted my skill point placement to relatively few abilities, sacrificing skills that make little difference early on in order to get more out of trainers later. I have probably done this more than is practical, given the always high cost of trainers... does anyone have any more information about who teaches what where for how much? I am assuming, of course, that there is no 300gp/point Silverlocke cheating factory in this game... Either way it doesn't really hurt me. Priests, for example, don't really need high spell power early. So I also concentrated First Aid and both Lore skills in Invisible Girl -- they are too useful to ignore, but that way I can buy them later for the others. Mr. Fantastic, of course, got Tool Use; like Vlish I like to ignore that skill so I just gave him 12 from the start. As Nephils, both casters have a passable enough bow attack to get us through the easy early levels. Bolt of Fire doesn't fry things by itself, but it doesn't need to with bow support from the rest of the team. Human Torch (I look forward to giving him a flaming bow, if that's one of the "elemental bows" I keep hearing about) is freest to spend his points; I pump Bows and Dex and then start on Sharpshooter. Once I get that up a bit, I have been saving up his skill points -- he already has a fantastic attack for the early area, and I'm not sure if I'll want to pump it right away, or wait for the Cotra trainer and get him some other skills. Thing gets a bunch of Quick Action, then Dex and Str and Gymnastics as soon as it becomes available. I've found that I don't really need to buy any Melee skill, given the Blademaster bonuses from both of his traits. His most important function is defensive; by ignoring Melee I improve his defense and also open up the possibility of training it later. We'll see if that lasts. Depending on the location of trainers and $ availability, and my patience, and some point the skills will spread out; everyone gets at least a level of priest to get more benefit from first aid, the archer will probably get a little more magic invested in him, Thing will pick up Melee and the advanced fighting skills, the mages will share some tricks and pump their magic stats. As for the mage/priest armor issue: I thought about giving my priest Natural Mage over Pure Spirit, but after skimming the item script, encumbrance seems to be much rarer than I expected. Most of the best helms, shields, boots, and gauntlets don't have any; for armor, the spellcasting bonus armors aren't encumbering, and the two weaker Quicksilver armors, which I suspect my mages will end up wearing, are both usable as well. (No amount of protection is going to make me pass up natural 10 AP. OK, almost no amount...)

Here's what I'm currently running, with some explanation I left out before. I suspect my opinions may change by the time I finish -- unlike the rest of you, I have the disadvantage of not having seen anything past Fort Draco! Thing -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Elite Warrior Human Torch -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Deadeye Invisible Girl -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Pure Spirit Mr. Fantastic -- Nephil, Divinely Touched, Natural Mage (Hey... I had to explain those creepy spandex outfits somehow! Poo is right.) I have restricted my skill point placement to relatively few abilities, sacrificing skills that make little difference early on in order to get more out of trainers later. I have probably done this more than is practical, given the always high cost of trainers... does anyone have any more information about who teaches what where for how much? I am assuming, of course, that there is no 300gp/point Silverlocke cheating factory in this game... Either way it doesn't really hurt me. Priests, for example, don't really need high spell power early. So I also concentrated First Aid and both Lore skills in Invisible Girl -- they are too useful to ignore, but that way I can buy them later for the others. Mr. Fantastic, of course, got Tool Use; like Vlish I like to ignore that skill so I just gave him 12 from the start. As Nephils, both casters have a passable enough bow attack to get us through the easy early levels. Bolt of Fire doesn't fry things by itself, but it doesn't need to with bow support from the rest of the team. Human Torch (I look forward to giving him a flaming bow, if that's one of the "elemental bows" I keep hearing about) is freest to spend his points; I pump Bows and Dex and then start on Sharpshooter. Once I get that up a bit, I have been saving up his skill points -- he already has a fantastic attack for the early area, and I'm not sure if I'll want to pump it right away, or wait for the Cotra trainer and get him some other skills. Thing gets a bunch of Quick Action, then Dex and Str and Gymnastics as soon as it becomes available. I've found that I don't really need to buy any Melee skill, given the Blademaster bonuses from both of his traits. His most important function is defensive; by ignoring Melee I improve his defense and also open up the possibility of training it later. We'll see if that lasts. Depending on the location of trainers and $ availability, and my patience, and some point the skills will spread out; everyone gets at least a level of priest to get more benefit from first aid, the archer will probably get a little more magic invested in him, Thing will pick up Melee and the advanced fighting skills, the mages will share some tricks and pump their magic stats. As for the mage/priest armor issue: I thought about giving my priest Natural Mage over Pure Spirit, but after skimming the item script, encumbrance seems to be much rarer than I expected. Most of the best helms, shields, boots, and gauntlets don't have any; for armor, the spellcasting bonus armors aren't encumbering, and the two weaker Quicksilver armors, which I suspect my mages will end up wearing, are both usable as well. (No amount of protection is going to make me pass up natural 10 AP. OK, almost no amount...)

1. Deadeye, yeah. Whee, I'm tired. I would never use Deadeye instead of Divinely Touched. Use it IN ADDITION to DT. The effects are cumulative. That combination will give you +15 to Sharpshooter at level 32. There are certainly arguments to be made in favor of EW or NM ahead of it. I'm using it, though; here's why: I'm running a party of a tank, an archer, a priest, and a mage, somewhat along the lines of what Vlish is doing. (I keep starting over with revised character plans based on new data about the game engine, so I haven't gotten very far... need to stop doing that Having a second character who is primarily a melee fighter makes the tank much less of an effective defense, unless I also make the second character a tank -- a melee fighter has to be in close range to be useful, after all. And if I make a second tank, my offensive ability drops a little bit, without my ability to defend really improving. Also, since enemies on Torment have so much HP, it's helpful to have all my allies concentrate their fire on one enemy; this is slightly easier to do with only one melee-range attacker. A third mage would be tempting, but increasing my magic reserves by 50% seems less useful to me than having a consistently strong supporting attacker I can use without having to worry about conserving MP. Plus, somebody said there are some things archery is the best offense against. It increases my options. 2. I think the reason people think Sliths are stupid is because the vast majority of the Sliths you encounter are hostile, and at least half of the friendly ones are grunting laborers with limited English vocabulary who react to you the same way that every single serf/refugee/child/etc. extra in Ex/Av does, by acting vaguely confused and pointing at their leader. 3. And I feel your frustration over the 2 icon choices. I feel it a LOT. Although the skills (and traits, and races) systems in all of Jeff's games are extremely well-implemented, I have never really liked the design. (Exceptions: I like the 'collective skill' design of mage lore, and I loved the spell circles in Nethergate.) While Jeff's games are superbly well-balanced on the whole, that is not as true of his skill systems. Exile, for example, had five skills that were almost completely useless (HP, Bows, Throwing, Poison, Item Lore) and several that were overpowered (20 Luck made you immortal). The XP "penalty" of traits (and of extra creatures in Geneforge) has been broken from the beginning, in Exile II. From a Positive Play Experience oriented point of view, having characters with distinct and unique abilities is good, as it helps ensure that all characters will be useful and fulfill some kind of useful role for the party. In other words: classes and specialization are good. Specialization fosters discussions about "I found it helpful to have these abilities; I used my Valkyrie to cast support spells freeing up my Priest's SP for combat" rather than these all-out optimization projects of ours, and squinting at the screen to figure out whether to pump Spellcraft or Magery first, etc. I certainly don't HAVE to make a party of four bow-toting Nephils just because it's optimal -- but it doesn't HAVE to be optimal, either! While the systems have gotten more balanced and focused -- the switch to four PCs in Av1 reflects this -- they have also gotten a lot more removed from reality: what the heck is the difference (in terms of what you are practicing) between Spellcraft and Magery? Quick Action vs. Quick Strike? Please. --slarty

1. Deadeye, yeah. Whee, I'm tired. I would never use Deadeye instead of Divinely Touched. Use it IN ADDITION to DT. The effects are cumulative. That combination will give you +15 to Sharpshooter at level 32. There are certainly arguments to be made in favor of EW or NM ahead of it. I'm using it, though; here's why: I'm running a party of a tank, an archer, a priest, and a mage, somewhat along the lines of what Vlish is doing. (I keep starting over with revised character plans based on new data about the game engine, so I haven't gotten very far... need to stop doing that Having a second character who is primarily a melee fighter makes the tank much less of an effective defense, unless I also make the second character a tank -- a melee fighter has to be in close range to be useful, after all. And if I make a second tank, my offensive ability drops a little bit, without my ability to defend really improving. Also, since enemies on Torment have so much HP, it's helpful to have all my allies concentrate their fire on one enemy; this is slightly easier to do with only one melee-range attacker. A third mage would be tempting, but increasing my magic reserves by 50% seems less useful to me than having a consistently strong supporting attacker I can use without having to worry about conserving MP. Plus, somebody said there are some things archery is the best offense against. It increases my options. 2. I think the reason people think Sliths are stupid is because the vast majority of the Sliths you encounter are hostile, and at least half of the friendly ones are grunting laborers with limited English vocabulary who react to you the same way that every single serf/refugee/child/etc. extra in Ex/Av does, by acting vaguely confused and pointing at their leader. 3. And I feel your frustration over the 2 icon choices. I feel it a LOT. Although the skills (and traits, and races) systems in all of Jeff's games are extremely well-implemented, I have never really liked the design. (Exceptions: I like the 'collective skill' design of mage lore, and I loved the spell circles in Nethergate.) While Jeff's games are superbly well-balanced on the whole, that is not as true of his skill systems. Exile, for example, had five skills that were almost completely useless (HP, Bows, Throwing, Poison, Item Lore) and several that were overpowered (20 Luck made you immortal). The XP "penalty" of traits (and of extra creatures in Geneforge) has been broken from the beginning, in Exile II. From a Positive Play Experience oriented point of view, having characters with distinct and unique abilities is good, as it helps ensure that all characters will be useful and fulfill some kind of useful role for the party. In other words: classes and specialization are good. Specialization fosters discussions about "I found it helpful to have these abilities; I used my Valkyrie to cast support spells freeing up my Priest's SP for combat" rather than these all-out optimization projects of ours, and squinting at the screen to figure out whether to pump Spellcraft or Magery first, etc. I certainly don't HAVE to make a party of four bow-toting Nephils just because it's optimal -- but it doesn't HAVE to be optimal, either! While the systems have gotten more balanced and focused -- the switch to four PCs in Av1 reflects this -- they have also gotten a lot more removed from reality: what the heck is the difference (in terms of what you are practicing) between Spellcraft and Magery? Quick Action vs. Quick Strike? Please. --slarty

Minornktaurs?

By underground, do you mean underunderground?

I doubt Sharpshooter adds anything else. It's priced at 10%, whereas Elite W, N Mage and Pure S are 15% with another medium bonus or small bonus + ability. N Mage + Pure S seems entirely worse than either of those + D Touched. Both the manual and Synergy's testing suggest that _ Spells, Spellcraft and Magery have equal effects on spell power, and Efficiency is pretty bad. Also, don't forget D Touched + Sharpshooter, which could easily replace one of the DT+EWs.