Men are from Slars

There is more evidence -- but it's on both sides! In E2, Patrick says of the Vahnatai: "It is their magic that created the glowing fungus that gives us light, and thus life." In A2 he says "our" instead of "their" due to the insertion of a question talking about magic in general -- it is not actually asserting that Exile created the fungus. Maxfield and X in A4 talk about refining the glowing fungus, but that doesn't mean much at all. On the other hand, A4 also has an area description for the Tower remains that says "All of the plants that make life in the underworld livable, the glowing fungus, the trees, the giant, edible mushrooms, they were created here." Also, early in the game: "Early in the history of Avernum, ingenious wizards created a fungus that glows with a soft green light. It spread, with help, to the ceilings and walls of every cavern in this land." In ZKR, Seletine says: "Your way will be lit by glowing green fungus in the ceiling. This was created in the Tower of Magi." However, this is of questionable canonicity since Seletine also talks about the Tower of Magi having already been rebuilt, which it wasn't. So we have, for the Vahnatai: E1 - Solberg A1 - Solberg E2 - Patrick And for Avernum: E1 - Erika A1 - Erika A4 - Descriptions ZKR - Seletine (questionable) EDIT: Solberg, I'm all for RPs but please don't mix fabricated fantasy in serious discussions about canon. There is nothing to suggest that Rentar-Ihrno or the Council created the fungus, and there are a number of facts that make that sound extremely unlikely.

Useful Lists Canisters Training Synergy's Item List Forging Recipes Item Collection Quests Abilities list and script editing Scripting new list Full Item List Maps Detailed Information Basic Tactics for the Geneforge Series Class Statistics Creation Statistics Further Analysis Experience Damage Multipliers Slartyanalysis - Physical Damage Resistances Reputation (Pro-Rebel vs Pro-Shaper) Slarty's Insane Reputation Analysis Leadership Mechanics Creature / Enemy Resistances Ending Guide Discussion Lifecrafter - Fire Shaping w/Cryoa (Part 2) Shock Trooper - Why they are inferior Shocktrooper Tales The Warrior Challenge Delicious Vlish's Warrior Challenge Servile - Combat Heavy - The Adventures of Onan the Barbarian Servile - Magic Heavy The Insidious Infiltrator Wingbolts vs. Kyshakks Other Trainer mod (grants ability to make all creations) - Fan-Made Content Artifact Weapons mod - Fan-Made Content

Err, my bad. That thread somehow slipped out of my view. Apologies

I seem to remember having dialogue with Lethos when I went there solo in my first game. I'm not sure, though. The XP reward is 200 at level 7 (in the scripts). As for the Cryoa Plan and experience: it really depends how many Cryoa you think you will want late in the game. I did out the math for a few ways of doling out skill points. It works best to get FS to 10 first, then go for Int. At level 6 you get to 10 FS and get one Cryoa. (I made one earlier, but it hadn't gained 1000 XP by the time I got to level 6, so it got absorbed and remade.) At level 7 you get a second Cryoa. Level 9 is a third and level 10 is a fourth. However, depending on how many you plan on keeping late in the game, you can stop pumping Int and focus on other stats for a while. 2, 3 and 4 are all reasonable numbers depending on how you like Drayks. It only takes two experience levels to get a Leadership of 6, and the doors and chests you *can* come back for. Besides, there's practically no interesting loot in Chapter 1.

I just figured Daze and Strong Daze, and other mental magic, would be sufficient crowd control. Is it harder than in the past to keep Mental Magic strong enough to be effective against mobs? I'm used to Strong Daze letting you take out three creatures basically for free. Also, I figured crystals and wands with a few points in Missiles would work for opening volleys/mob needs. Nope?

Ooh. Bug!

Argh. I am not talking about Fire Shaping type skills, I am talking about Create Fyora type skills. And I am not talking about canisters, I am talking about training from people (i.e., Jared). Argh.

Lifecrafters should never, ever have 30 Essence (or whatever it is) to spare that early in the game. Ok, I guess you can play them without min-maxing creations, but where's the fun in not being petty?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but if the spells are going to be weaker than your sword anyway, why bother with them?

Yes, I forewent them. You can do lots without them, you can do all the zones, you just can't open every door and do every quest. I'll come back and do them once I've gotten enough levels and Int to make a suitable number of Cryoa, and my Cryoa will be much stronger for it. It hasn't gotten too far -- still in Chapter 1. As with G4 I'm spending all my time researching insteead of playing. Also, I work more hours now.

I just tried to test Luck. I pumped it up to 20 (no patience for any more cheat code entry beyond that) and killed lots of stuff. Mostly stuff with 1 rate drops, but also some 20 and 50 rate drops. ...I was unable to find ANY correlation between level of Luck and rate of dropping items. However, I tested at 5 Luck, not 0. And I know that my high-Luck characters have tended to amass far greater numbers of Fine Hides than my low-Luck characters. ...Meh. Incidentally, there are no checks for Luck anywhere in the scripts.

Can anyone produce a list of where you can buy the Create _____ skills? I have canister location lists, but are in the dark about where training can happen for the later creations. Suggestions on an approximate range of levels you might be at when first reaching that point would be a bonus.

Actually, you only need 3 to get the XP bonus from Miranda. I just double checked. I put Therile Colony ahead of Burkes since you are going to keep him around till you raise 5000 gold, anyway. And you need 6 Leadership to get the Melted Sand quest in the first place.

Why pump Battle Magic, though? Why not just pump Mental and use your sword?

Glaahks and Ur-Glaahks both have a chance of dropping Glaahk Eyes. It's a 1 (in whatever) chance, but Luck helps this -- that's the same chance for the Thahdskin Tunic, for example. Rotghroths, similarly, drop Rotghroth Fangs. As for the other items, there are 10 Demon's Biles and I imagine you'll typically use at least 4 for artifacts. There are at least 6 Madness Gems available plus you can forge a few extra. However, I'm not sure how many specimens of each species can be found. Assuming you want a Talisman of Might, you need 1 random drop from a Rotghroth and 3 random drops from Glaahks in order to forge 6 Charms. But 3 Charms is always doable and 4 only requires one random drop. I'm not sure if you can affect random drops with save-reload...

I went through every single leadership check in the scripts. Leadership is a LOT more important than it was in previous Geneforges. At least, more important than we realized. Leadership is now a prerequisite for numerous quests, and most leadership-based dialogue options involve an XP reward. In Chapter 1 alone having a Leadership of 5 will earn you in the neighborhood of 1500 XP (if you get rewards at their default levels). Having 10 in Chapter 2 will earn you 3150 XP, the Tinker's Bauble, a permanent Luck bonus, and other gold and items as well. Since the experience penalty for being high level has been slightly softened, this bonus is more significant than it would have been in previous games. The highest you ever NEED leadership to be is 12. There are very few of these spots, though, and they are fairly late in the game and not very important. There are other places where you can potentially get a minute benefit out of even higher leadership -- extra damage in two key plot battles late in the game, plus the few reputation checks where leadership can make up for the wrong kind of reputation. In practice, it's really only important to get to 10, and that's really only important starting when you get to Moseh. (You need 10 to help him and there is a SLEW of XP and items available as a result of doing so, especially since you can then kill him and collect on that.) There is one previous encounter (at Tulami Gate) where you need 10, but that's a not very useful one with thahds. There are plenty of 10 cutoffs after him. You can potentially get 6 points from items (Infiltrator Tunic, Shield, and Charm, Dhonal's Band, and +2 from Cloak of Shadows). Some of these are not available till very late, but the Infiltrator Tunic and Shield can be found before Moseh. So you can get practically all the awards with a natural Leadership of 8. Specifically, I suggest this natural Leadership by this point: 4 -- Southforge Citadel 6 -- Therile Colony 7 -- East Checkpoint 7 -- Secured Path (with Inf Tunic) 8 -- Moseh's Bunker (but go north to get the Inf Shield first) The final investment will be 18 skill points (14 for Warriors and 23 for Lifecrafters) and will pay back many times that in skill bonuses and levels gained alone, let alone items, gold, and other bonuses.

I just got the hint book, and I want to say that this is by far the best hint book I can remember for any spidweb game. The area descriptions are good and the easy to find lists of item locations, quests, recipes and cheat codes are especially nice. It doesn't have everything, but that's what people like us are for, after all. Also, the cover (the opening pic) looks great. Whoever did it deserves some praise.

Why do these artifacts suck so much? Seriously, compared to the G3 artifacts, these are not very exciting. Ok, the Gloves of Savagery and Legs of the Tyrant, and the +1 AP cloak are great. The shaping boost items are OK I guess, though much less cool than the ones that boosted multiple creation stats by +2. Why anyone would ever make the Sunstone Belt or even the Girdle of Succor is a mystery to me. Also, it seems like the ingredients are available later in the game -- perhaps that's because there is less duplication of needed and available ingredients. Meh.

Heh. I didn't realize so many canisters were sold. I actually meant buying training in creation skills.

Anyone have a list of what's sold where? As far as creations go, anyway?

It would be tough noogies for that one. It's not going to be able to shape without a Geneforge.

An Artila and Wingbolt of equal level will differ in HP by exactly 65. If yours has half the HP, then I suspect your Artila was not created as soon as possible with 10 Magic Shaping. A few levels make a big difference. (That said, it seems like creations earn slightly less a proportion of your own XP than they did in G3, but I'm not sure about that. I should measure it.) Also, it seems that ice breath no longer causes stunning. The line in the definitions is still there, but I guess it's an out-of-date line that G4 doesn't implement. Sigh! Mental effect resistance, hrm. Running out of energy, hrm. OK, my new plan is to start making Ur-Drakons when I'm at level 3...

They aren't broken the way Vlish were in G3, they aren't even overpowered, but they're very, very good. I was comparing the upper level creations, looking at average damage (accounting for damage type) versus cost. Then I glanced over at the Cryoa, which I had already noticed was one of the better early creations, post-Vlish-nerfing. Then I noticed that if you keep a Cryoa around the whole game, by the time you get access to Cryodrayks, the Cryoa will be nearly as powerful. Specifically, it should be at a similar level, with a weaker attack, slightly lower resistance to physical and cold damage, 400 extra energy, and of course a significantly reduced essence cost. However, if you pump up the Cryoa's strength 5 or 6 times, it ends up with an attack equal to a Cryodrayk's... and it still costs about half what a Cryodrayk does! It actually ends up being a slightly better value than the Drayk, depending on what the exact numbers are. I also did the numbers out for Artila, and they work out OK. Although it's even cheaper to pump Artila Strength, their attack does 1-4 per level of damage rather than 1-6, so they don't get the same return. A level 40 Artila will still only do about 60 damage a shot. As SoT noted, however, acid damage is the most consistent damage type in G4. And both Cryoas and Artilas are available at the very start of the game. If you want to use them, though, you really do need to pump a shaping skill, so you have to make a choice. Either one would work, actually. Magic Shaping is more limited. Vlish and Glaahks are okay, but their damage can't hold up late in the game. Wingbolts are great. However, because Wingbolts (and Gazers) do the oft-highly resisted Magic damage, you will become reliant on the Artila. I think a team of 4 Artila and maybe 3 Wingbolts would be pretty effective, and is fairly cheap in essence. At high levels you could switch the Wingbolts out for Eyebeasts if you wanted. Alternately, since you don't have to pump Int too high, pump Mental Magic and support the critters that way. I find Cryoa more exciting, probably because there are a variety of useful Fire Shaping creations. Also, Cryoa breath stuns, and ice damage is great damage unless you fight shades. (Then it sucks worse than a Battle Beta.) Roamers are available for acid. They will end up with weaker attacks than the Artila would, since they are available later, and they won't be too useful in random fights, but I can think of a few where they'd be golden (golems and pylons, mainly). Drayks are a great value and will be comparable to the Cryoa, but dealing physical damage. Skipping over the expensive, lardy Kyshakks, the coup de grace is the Ur-Drakon, which does huge damage AND slows. Before adding them this team is very cheap, and even with 2 Ur-Drakons it shouldn't break 700 essence, 500 with one. Doable by the time you get them. Anyway, I've just started a game with the Cryoa variant. Put all my points into Fire Shaping and made a Cryoa, once I got to 10 points went into Int. I'm at level 7 now towing two level 20 Cryoas. So far it's a piece of cake. Once I've made another few, I'll start paying attention to all those other skills. (Looking at the character info screen, seeing that Luck costs 1 and not buying it is a tremendous act of restraint on my part. )

You can't find out the number in-game, although Mercedia in the Thellite Colony will tell you if you are above or below 100. You can also go to one of the people who does check the number and see how they react (i.e., Darnor or Mouawad)

Quote: Originally written by F'nor: Alwan hasn't given me the quest to repair Moseh. I've been back to see him and it still hasn't happened. Do I have to betray the Safehouse to him in order to get the quest? Either that, or have a decent reputation with the Shapers and a few points in Leadership. However, as far as I can tell betraying the Safehouse has no actual gameplay effects aside from the reputation change and reward.